5 ms·

I come from a coal mining region. For over a 100 years there has only been one mine in the area, a big mine. There is plenty of coal in the surrounding areas. T

I come from a coal mining region. For over a 100 years there has only been one mine in the area, a big mine. There is plenty of coal in the surrounding areas. This is Africa. An uncle of mine had the idea that we start a mine. He invited about 20 of us, all related. We started putting aside money to register a company, pay a geologist to prospect for the coal and get mining permit to mine the coal. We all contributed money on a monthly basis. All paper work is done in the capital city so we used to send the oldest uncle in the group to go process the paperwork. He had worked in government before and he was older. In my culture you respect old(er) people. To cut a long story short we successfully registered the company, got a geologist to confirm there was indeed coal and got a mining license from the government. We then signed a contract with a sub contractor to come and mine. When the share certificates came instead of owing 5% I ownwed 0.00086% of the mine. Yes there were 3 zeros before the 86. Our elder the uncle we had sent to do the paperwork basically screwed all of us, including the uncle who originally came up with the idea. Lessions 1. Never use your cultural beliefs in business. Stick to contracts. 2. Don't just trust family.

mkagenius 8y ago
> owing 5% I ownwed 0.00086% of the mine Didn't you sign after reading? I dont know how it works there but generally one has to get all signatures for approval.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  So this uncle was elected as the chairperson and given power of attorney to register everything on our behalf. The capital city is a good 800km away and we all had day jobs. As I said in another comment, the true problem was we (I) believed a family member wouldn't screw us like that. So it was literally a handshake agreement.
  - theelous3 8y ago
    A handshake agreement is enforceable.
    - DougN7 8y ago
      Do you know that’s true where OP is (in Africa), or are you just assuming?
    - owenmarshall 8y ago
      In some cases, yes. In the US, I cannot transfer land to you with a handshake. I can't sell you most goods valued over $500 with a handshake. I can't assume your debt to another party with a handshake. Always ask a lawyer.
    - SkyPuncher 8y ago
      While technically correct, realistically unprobable.
    - otterley 8y ago
      Attorney here! (Not dispensing legal advice, though.) Not in the US in many cases. Take the Uniform Commercial Code, for example, which requires a written contract for the sale of goods over $500, or agreements creating a security interest. See https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-is-written-contract-required-under-the-ucc.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-is-written-cont... for a decent overview.
      - jimnotgym 8y ago
        IANAL But I believe in the UK it is only transfers of land that require a written contract. However you might want to think about how you would prove a handshake to a court
  - piker 8y ago
    If he had power of attorney, in many jurisdictions he would have had certain duties to you which may have significantly restricted his ability to do undermine your interests.
  - tacostakohashi 8y ago
    This reminds me of a takeaway from my failed startup - it's really not realistic to place 100% trust in someone to look after your interests if you are remote. You need to be there in person to keep an eye on everything, or possibly complain to government relgulators / go to court if need be. If it's all remote and it's not practical to do this stuff in person, you are asking to be taken advantage of.
    - mmsimanga 8y ago
      Totally agree with you. This is the lesson I learned.
  - wstuartcl 8y ago
    I would speak with a lawyer, given what you have described you may have a case for various beaches -- an oral agreement is a form of contract, power of attorney has certain obligations that are required to be held (the agent has a fiduciary responsibility to act for the benefit of and in the best interest of the principal), and there could perhaps even provable fraud.
- punnerud 8y ago
  In Europe/Norway the agreement have to be beneficial to all parties to be legal. In addition goes any doubt in favor of the one who did not write the agreement. Isn’t there any similar rules in your country?
zopa 8y ago
A contract is an agreement, not a piece of paper. If you all agreed that he would represent you, than he was bound to do so, no matter what got written down. That, at least, is the theory. There are of course many, many steps between a theoretical case and successful claim. And it's certainly easier to win a case if you have a written contract as evidence --- though 20 people's testimony is pretty strong evidence, too. I am not (quite) a lawyer, and certainly not in your country. But it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong: it sounds like fraud.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  I get where your questions are coming from but the real problem was that we were first a family then business people. In my culture, there is a alot of respect accorded to the elderly. We brought up not to question people older than us. So much so I struggled at work to call people older than me by their first name. It is fraud. Some of the family members wanted us to get the others arrested but this isn't so easy when you are family. It literally ends up with you getting your cousin's dad arrested, the same cousin you grew up playing soccer with. We collected money for a lawyer to sort it out but that dragged on and on. I now have first had experience of the saying that "the love of money is the root of all evil". None of us had quit our jobs so we moved on. I hold no grudge, just took the lessons.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    > Some of the family members wanted us to get the others arrested but this isn't so easy when you are family. It literally ends up with you getting your cousin's dad arrested, the same cousin you grew up playing soccer with I grew up in the Southeastern US. Here, getting your cousin's dad arrested is a Tuesday. ;) In all seriousness, sorry you had to go through this, and glad you took away good lessons. On the other side of the coin, never feel guilty about getting what's owed to you. You're the only one you can trust to have your interests at heart.
    - mmsimanga 8y ago
      Thanks for your advice. I will definitely keep that in mind, "never feel guilty about getting what's owed to you."
restalis 8y ago
"He invited about 20 of us" then "instead of owing 5% I ownwed 0.00086% of the mine." Have you made explicit the share you will end up with or you just assumed that all of you would get 100% / 20 people, i.e. equal share? It sounds that your uncle worked a lot more (from the moment he looked for partners and invited them into the venture till the end of the paperwork and beginning of the operations). I concede though that your share was way too small. If the rest of the partners (18, without you and your uncle) received the same share, your uncle gave you all only a little over 0.015% which is just below any justification I can imagine.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  Its a really long story. I mean long. No the uncle didn't do all the work. Infact he contributed no money at all. There was a lot of legwork done by other family members hiring equipment to do prospecting, providing transport and wooing potential investors. You have bear in mind that half of the relatives were not educated. There was a lot of trust and good will because were "family". We are still are family. On a side note, this made me realise why there is so much conflict in some mineral rich areas in Africa. Honestly if we weren't peaceful people there could have been serious conflict.
  - jhowell 8y ago
    > On a side note, this made me realise why there is so much conflict in some mineral rich areas in Africa. Honestly if we weren't peaceful people there could have been serious conflict. Care to elaborate?
    - mmsimanga 8y ago
      It's my way of saying we were really mad! Mad enough to come to blows which nearly happened at our meetings or to sabotage the whole mining operation. Have a look at this story[1] about a community in diamond rich land in South Africa who are still bitterly divided to this day. [1]https://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-30-bitter-fight-for-diamonds-divides-the-impoverished-richtersveld https://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-30-bitter-fight-for-diamond...
stealthcat 8y ago
>Don't just trust family Reminder what happened to Joseph in his life [0]. [0] https://quran.com/12 https://quran.com/12
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
charlesdm 8y ago
Did it actually work out though? Is the mine making money?
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  So the contractor did indeed come through and mine for about three years. Contractor opted not to renew his contract. At this point I have to disclose my home country, it is Zimbabwe. We have had trouble convincing anyone to invest in the country. Dictatorship. Money that we made was shared according to the shareholding structure. I made peanuts. Nothing happening now, I guess we tired from fighting.
  - dzonga 8y ago
    tsano, Zim ma1 people just screw each other! i'm from Zim too
    - mmsimanga 8y ago
      Totally agreed. It is hard to explain to someone not from Zim just how things work in Zim. I tend to feel we are unique, not in the best possible way.
everybodyknows 8y ago
People inside our tight social circles are held accountable by social pressure. This is why, for instance, Mormons seldom defraud other Mormons -- it would make Sunday mornings unpleasant for a long time to come. That your uncle would choose very deliberately to alienate his entire family is the astonishing thing. Would be curious to know what his social life is like, now ...
- josh_frome 8y ago
  Actually, "According to the FBI, affinity fraud crimes are especially prevalent in Utah." https://fox13now.com/2017/12/20/fbi-warns-lds-church-members-of-affinity-fraud/ https://fox13now.com/2017/12/20/fbi-warns-lds-church-members...
  - everybodyknows 8y ago
    Interesting, but the article doesn't give us much sense of how close the victim and perp were in the church hierarchy, My reading is that they probably did not have the same Mormon bishop, who would have felt some pressure to take action. So, yes, the farther away in the social network, the weaker the social pressure. If the link is mere nominal membership in the same faith, that may be worse than no link at all. Most of Madoff's victims were Jews -- because they were inclined to give him the benefit of any doubts.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      >This is why, for instance, Mormons seldom defraud other Mormons >If the link is mere nominal membership in the same faith, that may be worse than no link at all So which is it?
      - everybodyknows 8y ago
        Not enough info in the article to form a judgement.
        8y ago
pytyper2 8y ago
Do the rest of the shareholders have first option to buy his shares if the uncle were to wander into the jungle and fall into a pit, just a pit, a big pit?

mkagenius 8y ago

> owing 5% I ownwed 0.00086% of the mine Didn't you sign after reading? I dont know how it works there but generally one has to get all signatures for approval.

mmsimanga 8y ago
So this uncle was elected as the chairperson and given power of attorney to register everything on our behalf. The capital city is a good 800km away and we all had day jobs. As I said in another comment, the true problem was we (I) believed a family member wouldn't screw us like that. So it was literally a handshake agreement.
- theelous3 8y ago
  A handshake agreement is enforceable.
  - DougN7 8y ago
    Do you know that’s true where OP is (in Africa), or are you just assuming?
  - owenmarshall 8y ago
    In some cases, yes. In the US, I cannot transfer land to you with a handshake. I can't sell you most goods valued over $500 with a handshake. I can't assume your debt to another party with a handshake. Always ask a lawyer.
  - SkyPuncher 8y ago
    While technically correct, realistically unprobable.
  - otterley 8y ago
    Attorney here! (Not dispensing legal advice, though.) Not in the US in many cases. Take the Uniform Commercial Code, for example, which requires a written contract for the sale of goods over $500, or agreements creating a security interest. See https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-is-written-contract-required-under-the-ucc.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-is-written-cont... for a decent overview.
    - jimnotgym 8y ago
      IANAL But I believe in the UK it is only transfers of land that require a written contract. However you might want to think about how you would prove a handshake to a court
- piker 8y ago
  If he had power of attorney, in many jurisdictions he would have had certain duties to you which may have significantly restricted his ability to do undermine your interests.
- tacostakohashi 8y ago
  This reminds me of a takeaway from my failed startup - it's really not realistic to place 100% trust in someone to look after your interests if you are remote. You need to be there in person to keep an eye on everything, or possibly complain to government relgulators / go to court if need be. If it's all remote and it's not practical to do this stuff in person, you are asking to be taken advantage of.
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    Totally agree with you. This is the lesson I learned.
- wstuartcl 8y ago
  I would speak with a lawyer, given what you have described you may have a case for various beaches -- an oral agreement is a form of contract, power of attorney has certain obligations that are required to be held (the agent has a fiduciary responsibility to act for the benefit of and in the best interest of the principal), and there could perhaps even provable fraud.
punnerud 8y ago
In Europe/Norway the agreement have to be beneficial to all parties to be legal. In addition goes any doubt in favor of the one who did not write the agreement. Isn’t there any similar rules in your country?

zopa 8y ago

A contract is an agreement, not a piece of paper. If you all agreed that he would represent you, than he was bound to do so, no matter what got written down. That, at least, is the theory. There are of course many, many steps between a theoretical case and successful claim. And it's certainly easier to win a case if you have a written contract as evidence --- though 20 people's testimony is pretty strong evidence, too. I am not (quite) a lawyer, and certainly not in your country. But it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong: it sounds like fraud.

mmsimanga 8y ago
I get where your questions are coming from but the real problem was that we were first a family then business people. In my culture, there is a alot of respect accorded to the elderly. We brought up not to question people older than us. So much so I struggled at work to call people older than me by their first name. It is fraud. Some of the family members wanted us to get the others arrested but this isn't so easy when you are family. It literally ends up with you getting your cousin's dad arrested, the same cousin you grew up playing soccer with. We collected money for a lawyer to sort it out but that dragged on and on. I now have first had experience of the saying that "the love of money is the root of all evil". None of us had quit our jobs so we moved on. I hold no grudge, just took the lessons.
- ethbro 8y ago
  > Some of the family members wanted us to get the others arrested but this isn't so easy when you are family. It literally ends up with you getting your cousin's dad arrested, the same cousin you grew up playing soccer with I grew up in the Southeastern US. Here, getting your cousin's dad arrested is a Tuesday. ;) In all seriousness, sorry you had to go through this, and glad you took away good lessons. On the other side of the coin, never feel guilty about getting what's owed to you. You're the only one you can trust to have your interests at heart.
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    Thanks for your advice. I will definitely keep that in mind, "never feel guilty about getting what's owed to you."

restalis 8y ago

"He invited about 20 of us" then "instead of owing 5% I ownwed 0.00086% of the mine." Have you made explicit the share you will end up with or you just assumed that all of you would get 100% / 20 people, i.e. equal share? It sounds that your uncle worked a lot more (from the moment he looked for partners and invited them into the venture till the end of the paperwork and beginning of the operations). I concede though that your share was way too small. If the rest of the partners (18, without you and your uncle) received the same share, your uncle gave you all only a little over 0.015% which is just below any justification I can imagine.

mmsimanga 8y ago
Its a really long story. I mean long. No the uncle didn't do all the work. Infact he contributed no money at all. There was a lot of legwork done by other family members hiring equipment to do prospecting, providing transport and wooing potential investors. You have bear in mind that half of the relatives were not educated. There was a lot of trust and good will because were "family". We are still are family. On a side note, this made me realise why there is so much conflict in some mineral rich areas in Africa. Honestly if we weren't peaceful people there could have been serious conflict.
- jhowell 8y ago
  > On a side note, this made me realise why there is so much conflict in some mineral rich areas in Africa. Honestly if we weren't peaceful people there could have been serious conflict. Care to elaborate?
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    It's my way of saying we were really mad! Mad enough to come to blows which nearly happened at our meetings or to sabotage the whole mining operation. Have a look at this story[1] about a community in diamond rich land in South Africa who are still bitterly divided to this day. [1]https://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-30-bitter-fight-for-diamonds-divides-the-impoverished-richtersveld https://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-30-bitter-fight-for-diamond...

stealthcat 8y ago

>Don't just trust family Reminder what happened to Joseph in his life [0]. [0] https://quran.com/12 https://quran.com/12

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

charlesdm 8y ago

Did it actually work out though? Is the mine making money?

mmsimanga 8y ago
So the contractor did indeed come through and mine for about three years. Contractor opted not to renew his contract. At this point I have to disclose my home country, it is Zimbabwe. We have had trouble convincing anyone to invest in the country. Dictatorship. Money that we made was shared according to the shareholding structure. I made peanuts. Nothing happening now, I guess we tired from fighting.
- dzonga 8y ago
  tsano, Zim ma1 people just screw each other! i'm from Zim too
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    Totally agreed. It is hard to explain to someone not from Zim just how things work in Zim. I tend to feel we are unique, not in the best possible way.

everybodyknows 8y ago

People inside our tight social circles are held accountable by social pressure. This is why, for instance, Mormons seldom defraud other Mormons -- it would make Sunday mornings unpleasant for a long time to come. That your uncle would choose very deliberately to alienate his entire family is the astonishing thing. Would be curious to know what his social life is like, now ...

josh_frome 8y ago
Actually, "According to the FBI, affinity fraud crimes are especially prevalent in Utah." https://fox13now.com/2017/12/20/fbi-warns-lds-church-members-of-affinity-fraud/ https://fox13now.com/2017/12/20/fbi-warns-lds-church-members...
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  Interesting, but the article doesn't give us much sense of how close the victim and perp were in the church hierarchy, My reading is that they probably did not have the same Mormon bishop, who would have felt some pressure to take action. So, yes, the farther away in the social network, the weaker the social pressure. If the link is mere nominal membership in the same faith, that may be worse than no link at all. Most of Madoff's victims were Jews -- because they were inclined to give him the benefit of any doubts.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    >This is why, for instance, Mormons seldom defraud other Mormons >If the link is mere nominal membership in the same faith, that may be worse than no link at all So which is it?
    - everybodyknows 8y ago
      Not enough info in the article to form a judgement.
      - 8y ago

pytyper2 8y ago

Do the rest of the shareholders have first option to buy his shares if the uncle were to wander into the jungle and fall into a pit, just a pit, a big pit?