7 ms·

I actually find ageism to be one of the most overt forms of illegal discrimination. People talk about how they are looking for young devs in a way that would se

by fipple 8y ago

I actually find ageism to be one of the most overt forms of illegal discrimination. People talk about how they are looking for young devs in a way that would seem insane if they were talking about white devs or male.

vosper 8y ago
Yes, I've been astonished by how freely ageist hiring is discussed (at least behind closed doors of hiring committees). I assume it's because it's not even really being considered discrimination in the minds of the people who're doing the talking. Getting that recognition might be the part of the battle. It's also astonished me how at least some of the people trying to find the young devs who will work long hours are going to be in the discriminated group in a few years time! They don't seem to realise that by perpetuating the discrimination they're making themselves the future victims. It's a bizarre kind of cognitive dissonance.
- kristopolous 8y ago
  You should read "Disrupted" by Dan Lyons, a middle aged tech reporter from Newsweek who went to work for a Boston company called HubSpot. He has some pretty good insight and stories about this.
- codeonfire 8y ago
  They are all going to be CTO's in the future, not future victims! I assume by saying hiring committee you work at Google. A whistleblower sued Google in March alleging overt age discrimination and illegal race quotas. They copied some damning information including screenshots of their quota tool. What kind of information do you know about it?
umvi 8y ago
Possibly because, unlike race or gender, age-related biases are much more exagerrated between individuals. I would guess young people are more eager to change/try new things whereas older people are more reluctant to change or stray from their "tried and true" methods. The same cannot be said of a white person vs. a black person.
- jabits 8y ago
  This is bullshit and reflects the bias built into your own views. This is a deeply rooted viewpoint of many like you, most likely based on your experiences with your narrow network of "older" people.
  - russdpale 8y ago
    Or the fact that the older people at my job still barely know how to type or use the printer or heaven forbid, scan to email! Even though they've had decades to learn it? Im not a young dev anymore, but I can see why the older crowd has the rap they do. It doesn't make ageism right, at all.. but I can understand how it has happened. An entire generation of people like me who have heard our older loved ones say they need their "foxfire" fixed or whatever. 10 years ago this was more palatable. Now a days it is dissolving as more older people learn the technology and more older people want to learn the technology. I personally never want to stop learning. My colleague is well into his 50's and still takes college course in math and CS. It has challenged my own personal prejudices and pushes me to be better as well.
    - tabtab 8y ago
      There are negative stereotypes about inexperienced (young) workers also. Stupidity happens at all levels, and I could tell stories for months.
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Taking math and CS courses isn't going to help you with scan to email.
  - DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
    > This is bullshit Please keep the discussion civil.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      Calling bullshit on an argument that is not made from fact is not being uncivil. I'd argue that making an argument that is such bullshit is far more uncivil than saying the word "bullshit".
jachee 8y ago
Agreed. In my last job hunt, I called out[0] some blatently overt ageism in an ad. 0 - https://twitter.com/jachee/status/867209621093703680 https://twitter.com/jachee/status/867209621093703680
draw_down 8y ago
It’s also much less rarely mentioned than those other sorts of discrimination. The reasons why are understandable, but the irony there is that all of us will experience it unless we die or switch careers first. It’s acceptable to have glamour shots of your “diverse” team where everyone is under 35.
stale2002 8y ago
Ok, and what about discrimination against young people? I can assure that that discrimination against young people is significantly more prevalent. It is just wrapped up in pretty words about "experience" or "maturity". Nobody seems to care about the 18 year who can produce a lot of good work, but isn't likely to be paid even a third of what an equally capable 40 year old makes. How is that fair?
- cortesoft 8y ago
  There is a lot that goes into 'producing good work' at a company, and a lot of those things can only be gained by experience. Of course, not all experience is equal, but experience is still important.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    > Of course, not all experience is equal, but experience is still important. Would you say the same thing if someone used similar dog whistles to talk about old people? IE, "oh, being able to move quickly and think on your fit is important, and sometimes this can only be gained by being in good physical shape, and having good health, like a young person would have". Either discrimination is OK or it isn't. One person's justifications aren't any different than another person's.
    - chrisbennet 8y ago
      Your example isn’t really discrimination if you’re looking for fire fighters. “Experience” is largely acquired by making mistakes. People don’t care how old you are, they care how many years of experience you’ve acquired. I guess you can call it discrimination but only if you think hiring people “who are good at their job” discriminates against people aren’t. Of course, this is a US centric view, it could be totally different where you live.
    - cortesoft 8y ago
      I mean, if you are going to be THAT loose in your definition of 'discrimination', then basically everything is discrimination. It would be discrimination to hire someone who is a better programmer, because you are unfairly advantaging people who have more skill. So yes, you are allowed to discriminate on those sorts of things. If the attribute you are discriminating for is relevant to the job, it is ok to discriminate. Take, for example, discrimination against the physically disabled - if a construction company requires that you are able to lift 50 pound bags of concrete, it wouldn't be guilt of unlawful discrimination because that is required for the job. On the other hand, if you require someone be able to lift a 50 pound bag, but their job is to sit at a desk and program a computer... then you would be found guilty of unfair discrimination against the disabled.
codeonfire 8y ago
I would say 75-90% of hiring managers in the US are not even US citizens and couldn't give less of a shit about US laws. Execs are incredibly happy for people to break the law for them. If an expat gets in trouble, they just get sent home with a bag full of money. For jobs in India, "freshers" have to put their blood type and where their fathers were born on their resumes because discrimination is so bad.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  > I would say 75-90% of hiring managers in the US are not even US citizens Wut? This number seems wildly off to me.
  - codeonfire 8y ago
    I meant hiring managers in tech companies like IBM.
    - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
      I still think your number is a gross exaggeration.
akdas 8y ago
And still I see folks in this thread rationalizing the behavior of companies, explaining how there's no discrimination happening and how age-related patterns are due to some form of "merit". It's no surprise so many people deny the less overt racism and sexism!
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by fipple 8y ago

vosper 8y ago

Yes, I've been astonished by how freely ageist hiring is discussed (at least behind closed doors of hiring committees). I assume it's because it's not even really being considered discrimination in the minds of the people who're doing the talking. Getting that recognition might be the part of the battle. It's also astonished me how at least some of the people trying to find the young devs who will work long hours are going to be in the discriminated group in a few years time! They don't seem to realise that by perpetuating the discrimination they're making themselves the future victims. It's a bizarre kind of cognitive dissonance.

kristopolous 8y ago
You should read "Disrupted" by Dan Lyons, a middle aged tech reporter from Newsweek who went to work for a Boston company called HubSpot. He has some pretty good insight and stories about this.
codeonfire 8y ago
They are all going to be CTO's in the future, not future victims! I assume by saying hiring committee you work at Google. A whistleblower sued Google in March alleging overt age discrimination and illegal race quotas. They copied some damning information including screenshots of their quota tool. What kind of information do you know about it?

umvi 8y ago

Possibly because, unlike race or gender, age-related biases are much more exagerrated between individuals. I would guess young people are more eager to change/try new things whereas older people are more reluctant to change or stray from their "tried and true" methods. The same cannot be said of a white person vs. a black person.

jabits 8y ago
This is bullshit and reflects the bias built into your own views. This is a deeply rooted viewpoint of many like you, most likely based on your experiences with your narrow network of "older" people.
- russdpale 8y ago
  Or the fact that the older people at my job still barely know how to type or use the printer or heaven forbid, scan to email! Even though they've had decades to learn it? Im not a young dev anymore, but I can see why the older crowd has the rap they do. It doesn't make ageism right, at all.. but I can understand how it has happened. An entire generation of people like me who have heard our older loved ones say they need their "foxfire" fixed or whatever. 10 years ago this was more palatable. Now a days it is dissolving as more older people learn the technology and more older people want to learn the technology. I personally never want to stop learning. My colleague is well into his 50's and still takes college course in math and CS. It has challenged my own personal prejudices and pushes me to be better as well.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    There are negative stereotypes about inexperienced (young) workers also. Stupidity happens at all levels, and I could tell stories for months.
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Taking math and CS courses isn't going to help you with scan to email.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  > This is bullshit Please keep the discussion civil.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    Calling bullshit on an argument that is not made from fact is not being uncivil. I'd argue that making an argument that is such bullshit is far more uncivil than saying the word "bullshit".

jachee 8y ago

Agreed. In my last job hunt, I called out[0] some blatently overt ageism in an ad. 0 - https://twitter.com/jachee/status/867209621093703680 https://twitter.com/jachee/status/867209621093703680

draw_down 8y ago

It’s also much less rarely mentioned than those other sorts of discrimination. The reasons why are understandable, but the irony there is that all of us will experience it unless we die or switch careers first. It’s acceptable to have glamour shots of your “diverse” team where everyone is under 35.

stale2002 8y ago

Ok, and what about discrimination against young people? I can assure that that discrimination against young people is significantly more prevalent. It is just wrapped up in pretty words about "experience" or "maturity". Nobody seems to care about the 18 year who can produce a lot of good work, but isn't likely to be paid even a third of what an equally capable 40 year old makes. How is that fair?

cortesoft 8y ago
There is a lot that goes into 'producing good work' at a company, and a lot of those things can only be gained by experience. Of course, not all experience is equal, but experience is still important.
- stale2002 8y ago
  > Of course, not all experience is equal, but experience is still important. Would you say the same thing if someone used similar dog whistles to talk about old people? IE, "oh, being able to move quickly and think on your fit is important, and sometimes this can only be gained by being in good physical shape, and having good health, like a young person would have". Either discrimination is OK or it isn't. One person's justifications aren't any different than another person's.
  - chrisbennet 8y ago
    Your example isn’t really discrimination if you’re looking for fire fighters. “Experience” is largely acquired by making mistakes. People don’t care how old you are, they care how many years of experience you’ve acquired. I guess you can call it discrimination but only if you think hiring people “who are good at their job” discriminates against people aren’t. Of course, this is a US centric view, it could be totally different where you live.
  - cortesoft 8y ago
    I mean, if you are going to be THAT loose in your definition of 'discrimination', then basically everything is discrimination. It would be discrimination to hire someone who is a better programmer, because you are unfairly advantaging people who have more skill. So yes, you are allowed to discriminate on those sorts of things. If the attribute you are discriminating for is relevant to the job, it is ok to discriminate. Take, for example, discrimination against the physically disabled - if a construction company requires that you are able to lift 50 pound bags of concrete, it wouldn't be guilt of unlawful discrimination because that is required for the job. On the other hand, if you require someone be able to lift a 50 pound bag, but their job is to sit at a desk and program a computer... then you would be found guilty of unfair discrimination against the disabled.

codeonfire 8y ago

I would say 75-90% of hiring managers in the US are not even US citizens and couldn't give less of a shit about US laws. Execs are incredibly happy for people to break the law for them. If an expat gets in trouble, they just get sent home with a bag full of money. For jobs in India, "freshers" have to put their blood type and where their fathers were born on their resumes because discrimination is so bad.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
> I would say 75-90% of hiring managers in the US are not even US citizens Wut? This number seems wildly off to me.
- codeonfire 8y ago
  I meant hiring managers in tech companies like IBM.
  - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
    I still think your number is a gross exaggeration.

akdas 8y ago

And still I see folks in this thread rationalizing the behavior of companies, explaining how there's no discrimination happening and how age-related patterns are due to some form of "merit". It's no surprise so many people deny the less overt racism and sexism!

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]