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You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability. The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can

by beloch 8y ago

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability. The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequently soldered on. Are other manufacturers better? They used to be. Apple leads the way, and now the average phone is nearly as difficult to repair as an iPhone. Hey, it's great that they managed to get iOS 12 to run on a 5S. It probably runs like an absolute dog, but it runs! Just wonderful. How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. Well, running iOS 12 on a 5S isn't so practical then, is it? Repairability. I'll believe point #2 when Apple stops making every succeeding generation of their products harder for end-users to repair.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Repairability and packaging are always tradeoffs. You can build something where everything is integrated with everything else and you need to throw out half the phone if one component fails or you can build something with more modularity but it will be bigger/heavier for the same performance.
vesak 8y ago
>Hey, it's great that they managed to get iOS 12 to run on a 5S. It probably runs like an absolute dog, but it runs! People are actually reporting that iOS 12 runs faster than iOS 11.
- batteryhorse 8y ago
  Yes but iOS 11 was really slow. Does it run faster than iOS 6?
  - donkeyd 8y ago
    That is an incredibly unfair and ignorant question. No, of course not, there are more, compute heavy, features and it's not worth it to spend huge amounts of time to support a phone you're no longer selling.
    - badpun 8y ago
      > it's not worth it to spend huge amounts of time to support a phone you're no longer selling Unfortunately, without the newer versions of the iOS the phone loses functionalities pretty quickly (the apps will require newer versions of iOS), which, quite conveniently for Apple, will make you need to buy a new one. Aka planned obsolescence. But kudos for getting at least one version of iOS to perform better than the last one (if that's true). That would be awesome if they actually kept this as a long-term trend.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Apple has allowed users to download the “last compatible version” since 2012. I reset my first generation iPad - last updated 2011 - last year and was able to load and run older versions of most of the apps for streaming services that were available back then - Netflix, Hulu, Crackle, Spotify, Plex, etc.
        badpun 8y ago
        "Last compatible" means no more security updates, which basically means - we no longer care about the flaws we've made, go ahead and risk your privacy (including for example your life savings if you bank online). Also, my experience with the last compatible version (for iPhone 4 IIRC) was that IIRC neither Skype nor Hangouts worked anymore. Plus the whole device was incredibly slow.
        scarface74 8y ago
        What security flaws do you expect in older versions of apps that were able to escape the iOS sandbox that were later fixed by updating the applications? What exploit has there been in an app that let it exfiltrate data from another app or read your web browsing history for any version of iOS? As far as Google, it’s no surprise that Google abandoned older protocols. That’s kind of their MO....
  - lowkeyokay 8y ago
    From my experience iOS runs quite decently on 5S and on 6, my current phone.
    - garyrob 8y ago
      I'm having the same experience as an iPhone 6 user. I'm having trouble finding much reason to upgrade.
  - heartbreak 8y ago
    The iPhone 5S was launched with iOS 7, so this question can't be answered by any consumer.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    A tentpole feature of iOS 12 was to improve performance regressions from earlier versions of iOS.
- GeekyBear 8y ago
  Improved performance on even the oldest supported devices was the headline feature of this iOS release. >Under stress tests, iOS 12 loaded share sheet display up to 2X faster on the iPhone 6 Plus. The keyboard opens 50 percent faster on older devices, while apps launch 40 percent faster and the camera opens 70 percent faster. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/wwdc-2018-ios-12-is-focused-on-performance/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/articl...
sokoloff 8y ago
> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily. It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book. How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?
- janlaureys 8y ago
  The 5 series and SE phones are pretty easy to repair indeed. I've replaced a screen and battery with no experience, a few tools from ifixit and a youtube video without much hassle. It's gone pretty downhill from there with the iphone 6. Especially because the screens are much more intricate.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    The later phones are still under the Apple $29 battery replacement program I think. I'd leave those to Apple. If an end-user doesn't want to do their 5/5S/SE on their own, there are kiosks in nearly every mall that will do it for you in an hour or so.
  - crispyambulance 8y ago
    I've done the 5s battery replacement and would say that it is not "easy" (I work with electronics HW everyday). It is a pain in the ass and requires tools, a serious chunk of time, a clear desk and the right attitude/patience. This is something that can become routine for practiced folks, or for people that are motivated to try the challenge, but there's a lot of opportunity for mishaps. In fact one way that many people get new phones is when Genius Bars screw-up the battery replacement-- so even pro's can't get it right 100% of the time.
  - basch 8y ago
    The newer phones are easier to lift the screen out of, and replace the battery? Have you taken apart a 4 and a 6? A 6 is MUCH easier.
ataturk 8y ago
I could not agree more. It is so frustrating to have a device like my iPad Air 2 sitting unused because the screen got cracked. The cost to repair it was higher than replacement cost. If we care about the environment even one single little bit repairability should be on everyone's priority list. I'm sure the sleek new $1100 iPhones that came out last week are even worse.
- jsjohnst 8y ago
  > The cost to repair it was higher than replacement cost. At the risk of being rude, you haven’t tried very hard then to replace the screen. It’s pretty easily doable under $100, IF you don’t go to Apple to get it repaired that is.
  - ataturk 8y ago
    I didn't go to Apple, I took it to a local place and was quoted over $200. Having an electronics background, I have attempted to fix iPhones a couple of times in the past. It never works out--the screens and digitizers you buy are crap, the connectors in the phones are so tiny that they break exceedingly easily, and the whole experience is just bullshit. Honestly, I fix my own cars, I should be able to attach a screen to a phone or tablet, but Apple went out of their way to make it hard. Those connectors could be a little bit bigger, they just chose not to make them that way! So thanks for the downvotes all you geniuses, but not everyone lives in San Francisco, NYC or wherever there are street corner repair shops! You know the other simple device that has been engineered to be un-repairable? Headphones. The barrel connectors on my kids' headphones break and every time I try to repair them it turns into this nightmare of trying to solder tiny wires where the ground is wrapped around them--they did this on purpose to thwart repair so that you keep buying new headphones.
krn 8y ago
> I'll believe point #2 when Apple stops making every succeeding generation of their products harder for end-users to repair. Shiftphones[1] can be completely dissembled and repaired by the end-users, and they don't look any different from other smartphone. So, it's certainly possible to do. However, I don't think that's what an average Apple customer prioritizes. "The thinnest and lightest iPhone ever" sells much better in the ad. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scWxjE7IyMo&t=42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scWxjE7IyMo&t=42s
- llampx 8y ago
  As people start keeping their phones longer, they will start preferring phones that are more durable and repairable. Making cars that break after a few thousand miles worked out for GM and Chrysler right up until the Japanese and German competition arrived.
  - krn 8y ago
    The thing smartphones is, that many people actually do want to replace them every few years for a better camera, a better screen, or for some trending feature-of-the-year, like a fingerprint reader or wireless charging. Aren't most Americans replacing their perfectly working flagship smartphones every 2 years?
    - soundwave106 8y ago
      That used to be the case, actually life cycles in earlier years were sometimes even shorter than that (apparently it was only a year and a half back in 2007 -- http://reconanalytics.com/2015/02/2014-us-mobile-phone-sales-fall-by-15-and-handset-replacement-cycle-lengthens-to-historic-high/ http://reconanalytics.com/2015/02/2014-us-mobile-phone-sales...). But several articles seem to point out that the upgrade cycle is slowing down -- up to 2 and 3/4 years according to this source (https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/2018/the-average-upgrade-cycle-of-a-smartphone-in-the-u-s--is-32-months---according-to-npd-connected-intelligence/ https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/20...) for instance. I think the second link is correct that 5G might offer some incentive to upgrade, but else wise there's just less reason to constantly upgrade your phones these days. The delta between an iPhone 7 and an iPhone 8 is not that huge versus the delta between an iPhone 3GS and an iPhone 4.
satysin 8y ago
Apple have done a great job with iOS 12 on older hardware. I have an iPhone 5S and it runs much better with iOS 12 than it did with iOS 10 or 11. The UI is faster and smoother, apps load quicker, battery life is still decent. In many ways it makes it feel like a new phone.
raverbashing 8y ago
To be fair, replacing battery/screen of Apple phones is easier and cheaper than some competing products. (phones are easier, iPads are harder) Some phones require heat gunning the screen as a start to open, then the battery is deep inside. Not with iPhones.
- GeekyBear 8y ago
  The worst of the worst being Microsoft's Surface line where iFixit says a battery replacement is simply impossible on the Surface Laptop. >According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
xoa 8y ago
>You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability. This is understandably a very popular assumption amongst people who like to tinker but it's oversimplified. "Repairability" is only a positive in the absence of any other factors. Devices that are harder to repair can also increase the active matter to dead matter ratio which reduces a whole host of energy and material requirements and be sealed better which increases environmental tolerance. That's ignoring any other user benefits like practical security. More generally I think it's really, REALLY important to be careful to separate goals vs tools, because humans have a real history of putting the cart before the horse and starting to treat successful tools as values in and of themselves which inevitably leads to misapplication. For most of the population, including amongst the technical set, "repairability" is a tool, not a goal. The goal is something along the lines of "any item I get should last for a reasonable time as a function of its price, including having a good 2-5 year period during which any failures should be Dealt With (meaning a restoration of functionality at reasonable speed) for free (significantly abnormal shipping aside), and for expensive items a longer period after where any issues can be Dealt With for reasonable expense." Repairability is one possible tool to use are part of a mix to meet that goal. But so is more money put into materials and engineering, better quality control, manufacturer insurance, manufacturer direct or partner support networks, etc. Each has tradeoffs, like any tool, and the right mixture will vary based on people's priorities and budgets. Repairability is not simply a positive. This is also part of what I hate in all the awful "Right to Repair" legislation attempts, the ones I've read have universally pushed a method rather then a goal which almost always makes for terrible law. Markets are our best tool for figuring out and then dynamically adapting to meeting goals, but of course do not have goals themselves. What legislation should do is mandate the goal and make sure costs are internalized then leave it to everyone else to figure out the best ways to make it happen for different parts of the population.
- llampx 8y ago
  Repairability as a goal or standard recognizes that no product is perfect, and that if or when something inside it goes wrong or needs servicing, it should be easy to do so. Batteries are a wear item for example, and should be easy to swap out with spares available freely. They aren't. Screens and glass backs are prone to cracking and shattering - not an issue in a desktop monitor or a TV, or even a laptop, but a bigger issue with a daily use item meant to be carried in your pocket. I'd be happy to see some kind of legislation put easy access to spare parts as a priority.
jpttsn 8y ago
Phone lifetime is bottle necked by performance moving on, not by wear and tear. Even so holes in the wall fix the common hardware issues for like $100.
- usrusr 8y ago
  > Phone lifetime is bottle necked by performance moving on, not by wear and tear. We used to think the same about PCs, but now I haven't found an excuse to upgrade in seven years (this is equivalent to the time between the 3dfx Voodoo 1 and the Gforce FX 5x000 series!). I see absolutely no reason why the same isn't happening with phones, it just isn't that visible because of wear and tear replacement (and the various obsolescence tricks).
  - jpttsn 8y ago
    For me that’s a supply constraint, not demand. If MBPs got better as fast as iPhones I’d upgrade.
prepend 8y ago
Repairabiliy is important. But I think durability is more important as it requires no action by the user. iPhones are pretty solid as far as lasting a long time. I’m using a 5S that is 3 years old and it’s my daily driver. I passed on my old 4 that is still being used as a Netflix/ web browser. This is contrary to competitor phones that have hardware issues as well as ability to keep getting software updates. Nexus 5x released sep 2015 and selling used for $85 with original retail [0] compared to 6s released at the same dome that is now selling used for $165 despite an original price of $650 and worse specs [1]. Certainly some of this price difference is due to Apple as a luxury product. But it may also be due to new OS releases not being supported on the 5X, but are on the 6S. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0178GEA04/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0178GEA04/ref=mw_dp... [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015E8TYHW/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015E8TYHW/ref=mw_dp...
- brisance 8y ago
  iOS 12 runs on the 5s. https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-12/ https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-12/
- birksherty 8y ago
  I have an 6 year old cheap Chinese phone which I use as a podcast player now. It has removable battery. I have dropped it many times on cement floor without breaking anything. Old Nokia phones also didn't break so easily and repairable. We still have some working Nokia which were repaired in authorised service centre. So I don't know why people are saying you can only choose one of them.
  - prepend 8y ago
    I’m certainly not saying you can only choose reliability or durability. I don’t think there’s a fundamental exclusivity between them. But practically, I don’t know of a phone that does both. Certainly some old phones will work. And likely even still work as a phone. My point was that iPhones are more likely to still run and be useful based on their market price. The Nexus 5X price isn’t zero, someone still uses them. But it’s lower. It’s cool your Nokia works as a podcast player. Does it work as a phone? I loved my old Nokia, but never found them effective enough as a smart phone. But my feature phone from 2004 still boots up and I can play the snake game I bought.
einr 8y ago
Are other manufacturers better? They used to be. Many still are, although unfortunately many follow the path led by Apple. Here's an educational link for those who think everyone else is as bad as Apple: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability I have a HP ProBook myself and as far as laptops it is a joy to work on. Very repair-friendly. I can get to the hard drive, battery, CPU and RAM in minutes with no trouble and no weird tools. The entire bottom of the machine comes off very easily and reveals the exposed and helpfully labeled internals. I upgraded the i3 CPU to an i7 myself in like ten minutes a couple of months ago. I also know for a fact that dust particles have entered the keyboard on more than one occasion yet I am still here, typing away. Apple has been systematically and consistently working against repairability and upgradability for decades -- pretty much ever since the original Macintosh. If they want to suddenly change now that's great. I'll believe it when I see it.
- artimaeis 8y ago
  > Apple has been systematically and consistently working against repairability and upgradability for decades -- pretty much ever since the original Macintosh. If they want to suddenly change now that's great. I'll believe it when I see it. You say this, but your link shows that the 2011/2012 Macbook Pro is pretty high in the charts with a score of 7/10. Even then the biggest flaw they point out is the use of tri-wing screws. I agree that currently Apple isn't embracing ease of repairs in its laptop lineup, but to say that they've been working against it for decades is a bit of an overstatement.
  - llampx 8y ago
    A 2011 MacBook Pro is 7 years old now. How about the more recent ones?
the_solenoid 8y ago
I think if you try to extrapolate your or my willingness to repair something to the overall market for the iphone, it would be an error. What are the tradeoffs for a user replaceable battery? (really, this is something we should all know if we are arguing FOR replaceable batteries - maybe it's not the best idea? I would wager 99%+ of sales go to people who never want to touch the innards of a phone. And anecdotally, my SO's father got a cheap battery for his iphone and it ballooned up and almost destroyed his phone. He also asked me if he should get a 3rd party power adaptor for his macbook (I said no, he ignored me because his wife is cheap), and it was this cheap POS that actually ended up forcing him to doa $600 repair AND get an apple power supply. I spent years working on consumer PCs - normal people dont have time or inclination to deal with all this crap, just like they don't want to learn to repair their own air conditioner. Consumers who want/need easily replaceable batteries already don't choose an iPhone, so all this in mind, I suspect the numbers don't add up for this argument.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kimikelku 8y ago
  I don't know how big the adoption is in the US for nokia "dumb phones", but in Europe they sell really good. The first thing you do when you take them out of the box is to put the battery in. Even if the person at the store does this for you, just by watching you can easly do it yourself. And since iphones are a huge role model, if they implement it others will follow along.
  - orev 8y ago
    All of the physical mechanisms required to allow a user replaceable battery are fragile and take up valuable space. It’s not a simple matter of just allowing it. It could actually lead to more repairs due to failure of those parts, and you certainly could no longer make the backs out of glass or other exotic materials. They would all have to be plastic.
    - 8y ago
jjrh 8y ago
Replaceable batteries aren't even just about the 3 years later when it stops holding a useful charge, it's about day 1 ownership where I happen to want/need more flexibility. I loved that with my now rather old G2, I effectively never plugged the actual phone in, I had a wall charger for batteries and just swapped them in and out. Now I just use a powerbank which isn't nearly as convenient. Rapid charge on phones has made running out of battery far less painful however. Laptops are the one that really drive me nuts and I haven't heard a very compelling argument against a user replaceable battery. Some thinkpads even have a small internal battery that provides enough juice to let you swap out the main battery and not have the computer shut off - that's super cool and practical, i'll take a few mm extra thickness.
jrs95 8y ago
Not only are Apple products difficult and expensive to repair, but if you've done something with your device that Apple doesn't approve of and voided the warranty they may even refuse to repair it for you. You're essentially not allowed to perform iMac Pro upgrades on your own -- this voids the warranty. Only authorized third parties can do this. It's kind of ridiculous given that the design of the machine ensures thermal issues long term...and it has to be partially disassembled just to be properly cleaned!
- sbuk 8y ago
  > "that Apple doesn't approve of and voided the warranty..." That's how warranties work.
  - jrs95 8y ago
    Yes, but generally this is about getting discounted service. In the case of the iMac Pro in particular, Apple wouldn't accept money to do the repair at all with a voided warranty.
maxxxxx 8y ago
And upgradeability! It's infuriating that the only way to get more memory into a MacBook is to buy a new one. And I don't believe Apple has any real technical reasons for the current state.
mailslot 8y ago
My phone with a replaceable battery... every time I’d drop it or throw it on my bed, the back pops off and battery flies out. It also made things quite a bit thicker for this feature I never used, except to put the battery back in. I’d argue that the ability to solder is still repairability, it just requires the service tech to have soldering skills. It’s not like there’s actual restrictions preventing it. My clothes drier is repairable, but requires electrical skills. Phones are more complicated now. It stands to reason that they’re more complicated to repair.
tmaly 8y ago
I agree, Repairability would contribute to the products lasting longer. However, the cost of repair even without Repairability does affect things. I have a 2013 MacBook pro that randomly crashes. I suspect a hardware issue, but the cost to try to repair it is approaching 60-70% of the cost to just buy a new machine.
cryptozeus 8y ago
Imo I think its the opposite. I haven’t had a need to change battery or repair anything in my SE for few years now. Its so “reliable” that i dont even think about it. Reliability is what is more important.
saagarjha 8y ago
> Hey, it's great that they managed to get iOS 12 to run on a 5S. It probably runs like an absolute dog, but it runs! But it runs well. That's the whole point of iOS 12: make iOS run well on older devices.
kalleboo 8y ago
I agree that repairability is important. I have a year-old X with a cracked camera lens that Apple wants $450 to fix (under AppleCare+), but some YouTube video says I can fix myself for $7. The third-party repair centers near me say they won't touch it. The only reason my mother-in-law is still using my ancient hand-me-down 5s is because the small repair shops will replace the screen and battery on that one for almost nothing. Although I also have an Android phone of a similar vintage with a replaceable battery. Nobody sells that battery model anymore. It's a doorstop.

by beloch 8y ago

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Repairability and packaging are always tradeoffs. You can build something where everything is integrated with everything else and you need to throw out half the phone if one component fails or you can build something with more modularity but it will be bigger/heavier for the same performance.

vesak 8y ago

>Hey, it's great that they managed to get iOS 12 to run on a 5S. It probably runs like an absolute dog, but it runs! People are actually reporting that iOS 12 runs faster than iOS 11.

batteryhorse 8y ago
Yes but iOS 11 was really slow. Does it run faster than iOS 6?
- donkeyd 8y ago
  That is an incredibly unfair and ignorant question. No, of course not, there are more, compute heavy, features and it's not worth it to spend huge amounts of time to support a phone you're no longer selling.
  - badpun 8y ago
    > it's not worth it to spend huge amounts of time to support a phone you're no longer selling Unfortunately, without the newer versions of the iOS the phone loses functionalities pretty quickly (the apps will require newer versions of iOS), which, quite conveniently for Apple, will make you need to buy a new one. Aka planned obsolescence. But kudos for getting at least one version of iOS to perform better than the last one (if that's true). That would be awesome if they actually kept this as a long-term trend.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Apple has allowed users to download the “last compatible version” since 2012. I reset my first generation iPad - last updated 2011 - last year and was able to load and run older versions of most of the apps for streaming services that were available back then - Netflix, Hulu, Crackle, Spotify, Plex, etc.
      - badpun 8y ago
        "Last compatible" means no more security updates, which basically means - we no longer care about the flaws we've made, go ahead and risk your privacy (including for example your life savings if you bank online). Also, my experience with the last compatible version (for iPhone 4 IIRC) was that IIRC neither Skype nor Hangouts worked anymore. Plus the whole device was incredibly slow.
        scarface74 8y ago
        What security flaws do you expect in older versions of apps that were able to escape the iOS sandbox that were later fixed by updating the applications? What exploit has there been in an app that let it exfiltrate data from another app or read your web browsing history for any version of iOS? As far as Google, it’s no surprise that Google abandoned older protocols. That’s kind of their MO....
- lowkeyokay 8y ago
  From my experience iOS runs quite decently on 5S and on 6, my current phone.
  - garyrob 8y ago
    I'm having the same experience as an iPhone 6 user. I'm having trouble finding much reason to upgrade.
- heartbreak 8y ago
  The iPhone 5S was launched with iOS 7, so this question can't be answered by any consumer.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  A tentpole feature of iOS 12 was to improve performance regressions from earlier versions of iOS.
GeekyBear 8y ago
Improved performance on even the oldest supported devices was the headline feature of this iOS release. >Under stress tests, iOS 12 loaded share sheet display up to 2X faster on the iPhone 6 Plus. The keyboard opens 50 percent faster on older devices, while apps launch 40 percent faster and the camera opens 70 percent faster. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/wwdc-2018-ios-12-is-focused-on-performance/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/articl...

sokoloff 8y ago

> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily. It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book. How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?

janlaureys 8y ago
The 5 series and SE phones are pretty easy to repair indeed. I've replaced a screen and battery with no experience, a few tools from ifixit and a youtube video without much hassle. It's gone pretty downhill from there with the iphone 6. Especially because the screens are much more intricate.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  The later phones are still under the Apple $29 battery replacement program I think. I'd leave those to Apple. If an end-user doesn't want to do their 5/5S/SE on their own, there are kiosks in nearly every mall that will do it for you in an hour or so.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  I've done the 5s battery replacement and would say that it is not "easy" (I work with electronics HW everyday). It is a pain in the ass and requires tools, a serious chunk of time, a clear desk and the right attitude/patience. This is something that can become routine for practiced folks, or for people that are motivated to try the challenge, but there's a lot of opportunity for mishaps. In fact one way that many people get new phones is when Genius Bars screw-up the battery replacement-- so even pro's can't get it right 100% of the time.
- basch 8y ago
  The newer phones are easier to lift the screen out of, and replace the battery? Have you taken apart a 4 and a 6? A 6 is MUCH easier.

ataturk 8y ago

I could not agree more. It is so frustrating to have a device like my iPad Air 2 sitting unused because the screen got cracked. The cost to repair it was higher than replacement cost. If we care about the environment even one single little bit repairability should be on everyone's priority list. I'm sure the sleek new $1100 iPhones that came out last week are even worse.

jsjohnst 8y ago
> The cost to repair it was higher than replacement cost. At the risk of being rude, you haven’t tried very hard then to replace the screen. It’s pretty easily doable under $100, IF you don’t go to Apple to get it repaired that is.
- ataturk 8y ago
  I didn't go to Apple, I took it to a local place and was quoted over $200. Having an electronics background, I have attempted to fix iPhones a couple of times in the past. It never works out--the screens and digitizers you buy are crap, the connectors in the phones are so tiny that they break exceedingly easily, and the whole experience is just bullshit. Honestly, I fix my own cars, I should be able to attach a screen to a phone or tablet, but Apple went out of their way to make it hard. Those connectors could be a little bit bigger, they just chose not to make them that way! So thanks for the downvotes all you geniuses, but not everyone lives in San Francisco, NYC or wherever there are street corner repair shops! You know the other simple device that has been engineered to be un-repairable? Headphones. The barrel connectors on my kids' headphones break and every time I try to repair them it turns into this nightmare of trying to solder tiny wires where the ground is wrapped around them--they did this on purpose to thwart repair so that you keep buying new headphones.

krn 8y ago

> I'll believe point #2 when Apple stops making every succeeding generation of their products harder for end-users to repair. Shiftphones[1] can be completely dissembled and repaired by the end-users, and they don't look any different from other smartphone. So, it's certainly possible to do. However, I don't think that's what an average Apple customer prioritizes. "The thinnest and lightest iPhone ever" sells much better in the ad. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scWxjE7IyMo&t=42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scWxjE7IyMo&t=42s

llampx 8y ago
As people start keeping their phones longer, they will start preferring phones that are more durable and repairable. Making cars that break after a few thousand miles worked out for GM and Chrysler right up until the Japanese and German competition arrived.
- krn 8y ago
  The thing smartphones is, that many people actually do want to replace them every few years for a better camera, a better screen, or for some trending feature-of-the-year, like a fingerprint reader or wireless charging. Aren't most Americans replacing their perfectly working flagship smartphones every 2 years?
  - soundwave106 8y ago
    That used to be the case, actually life cycles in earlier years were sometimes even shorter than that (apparently it was only a year and a half back in 2007 -- http://reconanalytics.com/2015/02/2014-us-mobile-phone-sales-fall-by-15-and-handset-replacement-cycle-lengthens-to-historic-high/ http://reconanalytics.com/2015/02/2014-us-mobile-phone-sales...). But several articles seem to point out that the upgrade cycle is slowing down -- up to 2 and 3/4 years according to this source (https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/2018/the-average-upgrade-cycle-of-a-smartphone-in-the-u-s--is-32-months---according-to-npd-connected-intelligence/ https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/20...) for instance. I think the second link is correct that 5G might offer some incentive to upgrade, but else wise there's just less reason to constantly upgrade your phones these days. The delta between an iPhone 7 and an iPhone 8 is not that huge versus the delta between an iPhone 3GS and an iPhone 4.

satysin 8y ago

Apple have done a great job with iOS 12 on older hardware. I have an iPhone 5S and it runs much better with iOS 12 than it did with iOS 10 or 11. The UI is faster and smoother, apps load quicker, battery life is still decent. In many ways it makes it feel like a new phone.

raverbashing 8y ago

To be fair, replacing battery/screen of Apple phones is easier and cheaper than some competing products. (phones are easier, iPads are harder) Some phones require heat gunning the screen as a start to open, then the battery is deep inside. Not with iPhones.

GeekyBear 8y ago
The worst of the worst being Microsoft's Surface line where iFixit says a battery replacement is simply impossible on the Surface Laptop. >According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...

xoa 8y ago

>You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability. This is understandably a very popular assumption amongst people who like to tinker but it's oversimplified. "Repairability" is only a positive in the absence of any other factors. Devices that are harder to repair can also increase the active matter to dead matter ratio which reduces a whole host of energy and material requirements and be sealed better which increases environmental tolerance. That's ignoring any other user benefits like practical security. More generally I think it's really, REALLY important to be careful to separate goals vs tools, because humans have a real history of putting the cart before the horse and starting to treat successful tools as values in and of themselves which inevitably leads to misapplication. For most of the population, including amongst the technical set, "repairability" is a tool, not a goal. The goal is something along the lines of "any item I get should last for a reasonable time as a function of its price, including having a good 2-5 year period during which any failures should be Dealt With (meaning a restoration of functionality at reasonable speed) for free (significantly abnormal shipping aside), and for expensive items a longer period after where any issues can be Dealt With for reasonable expense." Repairability is one possible tool to use are part of a mix to meet that goal. But so is more money put into materials and engineering, better quality control, manufacturer insurance, manufacturer direct or partner support networks, etc. Each has tradeoffs, like any tool, and the right mixture will vary based on people's priorities and budgets. Repairability is not simply a positive. This is also part of what I hate in all the awful "Right to Repair" legislation attempts, the ones I've read have universally pushed a method rather then a goal which almost always makes for terrible law. Markets are our best tool for figuring out and then dynamically adapting to meeting goals, but of course do not have goals themselves. What legislation should do is mandate the goal and make sure costs are internalized then leave it to everyone else to figure out the best ways to make it happen for different parts of the population.

llampx 8y ago
Repairability as a goal or standard recognizes that no product is perfect, and that if or when something inside it goes wrong or needs servicing, it should be easy to do so. Batteries are a wear item for example, and should be easy to swap out with spares available freely. They aren't. Screens and glass backs are prone to cracking and shattering - not an issue in a desktop monitor or a TV, or even a laptop, but a bigger issue with a daily use item meant to be carried in your pocket. I'd be happy to see some kind of legislation put easy access to spare parts as a priority.

jpttsn 8y ago

Phone lifetime is bottle necked by performance moving on, not by wear and tear. Even so holes in the wall fix the common hardware issues for like $100.

usrusr 8y ago
> Phone lifetime is bottle necked by performance moving on, not by wear and tear. We used to think the same about PCs, but now I haven't found an excuse to upgrade in seven years (this is equivalent to the time between the 3dfx Voodoo 1 and the Gforce FX 5x000 series!). I see absolutely no reason why the same isn't happening with phones, it just isn't that visible because of wear and tear replacement (and the various obsolescence tricks).
- jpttsn 8y ago
  For me that’s a supply constraint, not demand. If MBPs got better as fast as iPhones I’d upgrade.

prepend 8y ago

Repairabiliy is important. But I think durability is more important as it requires no action by the user. iPhones are pretty solid as far as lasting a long time. I’m using a 5S that is 3 years old and it’s my daily driver. I passed on my old 4 that is still being used as a Netflix/ web browser. This is contrary to competitor phones that have hardware issues as well as ability to keep getting software updates. Nexus 5x released sep 2015 and selling used for $85 with original retail [0] compared to 6s released at the same dome that is now selling used for $165 despite an original price of $650 and worse specs [1]. Certainly some of this price difference is due to Apple as a luxury product. But it may also be due to new OS releases not being supported on the 5X, but are on the 6S. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0178GEA04/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0178GEA04/ref=mw_dp... [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015E8TYHW/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B015E8TYHW/ref=mw_dp...

brisance 8y ago
iOS 12 runs on the 5s. https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-12/ https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-12/
birksherty 8y ago
I have an 6 year old cheap Chinese phone which I use as a podcast player now. It has removable battery. I have dropped it many times on cement floor without breaking anything. Old Nokia phones also didn't break so easily and repairable. We still have some working Nokia which were repaired in authorised service centre. So I don't know why people are saying you can only choose one of them.
- prepend 8y ago
  I’m certainly not saying you can only choose reliability or durability. I don’t think there’s a fundamental exclusivity between them. But practically, I don’t know of a phone that does both. Certainly some old phones will work. And likely even still work as a phone. My point was that iPhones are more likely to still run and be useful based on their market price. The Nexus 5X price isn’t zero, someone still uses them. But it’s lower. It’s cool your Nokia works as a podcast player. Does it work as a phone? I loved my old Nokia, but never found them effective enough as a smart phone. But my feature phone from 2004 still boots up and I can play the snake game I bought.

einr 8y ago

Are other manufacturers better? They used to be. Many still are, although unfortunately many follow the path led by Apple. Here's an educational link for those who think everyone else is as bad as Apple: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability I have a HP ProBook myself and as far as laptops it is a joy to work on. Very repair-friendly. I can get to the hard drive, battery, CPU and RAM in minutes with no trouble and no weird tools. The entire bottom of the machine comes off very easily and reveals the exposed and helpfully labeled internals. I upgraded the i3 CPU to an i7 myself in like ten minutes a couple of months ago. I also know for a fact that dust particles have entered the keyboard on more than one occasion yet I am still here, typing away. Apple has been systematically and consistently working against repairability and upgradability for decades -- pretty much ever since the original Macintosh. If they want to suddenly change now that's great. I'll believe it when I see it.

artimaeis 8y ago
> Apple has been systematically and consistently working against repairability and upgradability for decades -- pretty much ever since the original Macintosh. If they want to suddenly change now that's great. I'll believe it when I see it. You say this, but your link shows that the 2011/2012 Macbook Pro is pretty high in the charts with a score of 7/10. Even then the biggest flaw they point out is the use of tri-wing screws. I agree that currently Apple isn't embracing ease of repairs in its laptop lineup, but to say that they've been working against it for decades is a bit of an overstatement.
- llampx 8y ago
  A 2011 MacBook Pro is 7 years old now. How about the more recent ones?

the_solenoid 8y ago

I think if you try to extrapolate your or my willingness to repair something to the overall market for the iphone, it would be an error. What are the tradeoffs for a user replaceable battery? (really, this is something we should all know if we are arguing FOR replaceable batteries - maybe it's not the best idea? I would wager 99%+ of sales go to people who never want to touch the innards of a phone. And anecdotally, my SO's father got a cheap battery for his iphone and it ballooned up and almost destroyed his phone. He also asked me if he should get a 3rd party power adaptor for his macbook (I said no, he ignored me because his wife is cheap), and it was this cheap POS that actually ended up forcing him to doa $600 repair AND get an apple power supply. I spent years working on consumer PCs - normal people dont have time or inclination to deal with all this crap, just like they don't want to learn to repair their own air conditioner. Consumers who want/need easily replaceable batteries already don't choose an iPhone, so all this in mind, I suspect the numbers don't add up for this argument.

deleted 8y ago
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kimikelku 8y ago
I don't know how big the adoption is in the US for nokia "dumb phones", but in Europe they sell really good. The first thing you do when you take them out of the box is to put the battery in. Even if the person at the store does this for you, just by watching you can easly do it yourself. And since iphones are a huge role model, if they implement it others will follow along.
- orev 8y ago
  All of the physical mechanisms required to allow a user replaceable battery are fragile and take up valuable space. It’s not a simple matter of just allowing it. It could actually lead to more repairs due to failure of those parts, and you certainly could no longer make the backs out of glass or other exotic materials. They would all have to be plastic.
  - 8y ago

jjrh 8y ago

Replaceable batteries aren't even just about the 3 years later when it stops holding a useful charge, it's about day 1 ownership where I happen to want/need more flexibility. I loved that with my now rather old G2, I effectively never plugged the actual phone in, I had a wall charger for batteries and just swapped them in and out. Now I just use a powerbank which isn't nearly as convenient. Rapid charge on phones has made running out of battery far less painful however. Laptops are the one that really drive me nuts and I haven't heard a very compelling argument against a user replaceable battery. Some thinkpads even have a small internal battery that provides enough juice to let you swap out the main battery and not have the computer shut off - that's super cool and practical, i'll take a few mm extra thickness.

jrs95 8y ago

Not only are Apple products difficult and expensive to repair, but if you've done something with your device that Apple doesn't approve of and voided the warranty they may even refuse to repair it for you. You're essentially not allowed to perform iMac Pro upgrades on your own -- this voids the warranty. Only authorized third parties can do this. It's kind of ridiculous given that the design of the machine ensures thermal issues long term...and it has to be partially disassembled just to be properly cleaned!

sbuk 8y ago
> "that Apple doesn't approve of and voided the warranty..." That's how warranties work.
- jrs95 8y ago
  Yes, but generally this is about getting discounted service. In the case of the iMac Pro in particular, Apple wouldn't accept money to do the repair at all with a voided warranty.

maxxxxx 8y ago

And upgradeability! It's infuriating that the only way to get more memory into a MacBook is to buy a new one. And I don't believe Apple has any real technical reasons for the current state.

mailslot 8y ago

My phone with a replaceable battery... every time I’d drop it or throw it on my bed, the back pops off and battery flies out. It also made things quite a bit thicker for this feature I never used, except to put the battery back in. I’d argue that the ability to solder is still repairability, it just requires the service tech to have soldering skills. It’s not like there’s actual restrictions preventing it. My clothes drier is repairable, but requires electrical skills. Phones are more complicated now. It stands to reason that they’re more complicated to repair.

tmaly 8y ago

I agree, Repairability would contribute to the products lasting longer. However, the cost of repair even without Repairability does affect things. I have a 2013 MacBook pro that randomly crashes. I suspect a hardware issue, but the cost to try to repair it is approaching 60-70% of the cost to just buy a new machine.

cryptozeus 8y ago

Imo I think its the opposite. I haven’t had a need to change battery or repair anything in my SE for few years now. Its so “reliable” that i dont even think about it. Reliability is what is more important.

saagarjha 8y ago

> Hey, it's great that they managed to get iOS 12 to run on a 5S. It probably runs like an absolute dog, but it runs! But it runs well. That's the whole point of iOS 12: make iOS run well on older devices.

kalleboo 8y ago

I agree that repairability is important. I have a year-old X with a cracked camera lens that Apple wants $450 to fix (under AppleCare+), but some YouTube video says I can fix myself for $7. The third-party repair centers near me say they won't touch it. The only reason my mother-in-law is still using my ancient hand-me-down 5s is because the small repair shops will replace the screen and battery on that one for almost nothing. Although I also have an Android phone of a similar vintage with a replaceable battery. Nobody sells that battery model anymore. It's a doorstop.