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Way more people benefited from Amazon. It's cheaper. It set a new standard in delivery times and customer support. Its existence improved life of millions of pe

Way more people benefited from Amazon. It's cheaper. It set a new standard in delivery times and customer support. Its existence improved life of millions of people by significant margin. That old industry got killed is natural when progress happens.

KozmoNau7 8y ago
Amazon also set new lows for how to pay and treat employees, and how little it is possible to care about selling counterfeit products.
- a008t 8y ago
  Clearly they have been better than the alternatives for customers - otherwise, they would not be successful. Employees also have a choice - Amazon is not a monopoly.
  - ionised 8y ago
    > Clearly they have been better than the alternatives for customers - otherwise, they would not be successful. Plenty of shitty companies are successful. They just need to. be more convenient than their competitors. > Employees also have a choice - Amazon is not a monopoly. Not yet.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    The customer's don't see the horrible conditions behind the scenes, all they see are cheap products. If you're a delivery driver, your job options are extremely limited. You can deliver fast food, or deliver for companies like Amazon. It's either that, or starve.
    - danielmg 8y ago
      Or learn another skill?
      - KozmoNau7 8y ago
        Not really something you can "just do", when you're living paycheck to paycheck and can barely even pay rent, even after moving to more affordable accommodation, while also keeping your ~15 year old car running, because it's your lifeline to even having a job in the first place.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  I never understand why people say things like this. It's not even remotely true. For instance we can quantify the salary comment. A quick search for fulfillment center work showed salaries starting at $12-$14/hour. The median pay for retail work, by contrast, is $11.24 [1], which means 50% of workers earn less than that. It's not possible to similarly conveniently quantify concern about counterfeit, but if you think they genuinely do not care about it then I don't even know what to say. Even from a purely greed centered point of view, counterfeits hurt mid to longterm revenue. [1] - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/retail-sales-workers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/retail-sales-workers.htm
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    I base my impression of their working conditions on a friend of mine, who's worked both the warehouses and as a delivery driver. The managers are slave drivers, and if you're just a minute or two behind on a schedules delivery, you get dinged, a black mark on your employment record and a severe talking-down. Even if the delay is of no fault of your own (bad traffic, weather, etc.), it's seen as a personal failure on your part. No level of pay can make up for being treated like shit. Regarding the counterfeits, Amazon loves to say how they're dealing with the issue, but the examples just keep piling up. And of course their childish behavior around Chromecast and Youtube.
csydas 8y ago
I'm not sure I'd allow the delivery times and customer support to be attributed as a real thing to Amazon. Both were meant as audience capturing tactics and were basically unattainable by most all other competitors due to costs -- Amazon only avoided it riding on a large wave of money and eating costs for years until it was the only game in town. Now you can't have a thread about Amazon without constant complaints about the 2-Day shipping never really being 2-Day shipping, the constant fakes that plague the Amazon inventory (with a seemingly blind-eye from Amazon itself on it), and so on. These weren't really public goods introduced by Amazon, as plenty of stores handle the customer service side just fine in most cases, and the delivery stuff was mostly just investors subsidizing the costs for a time, which appears to no longer be a major focal point.
- darawk 8y ago
  Except that you can still just as easily buy things from normal retailers. They're not dead. People choose not to because the value of obtaining things from Amazon remains higher to them.
- TheTrotters 8y ago
  Perhaps it’s selection bias. People who are happy with Amazon may not see the need to comment about it in every thread. But to counter this trend: I am very, very happy that Amazon exists. It’s allowed me to discover and buy plenty of books that I otherwise would never read or sample. Not to mention dozens of everyday items I buy from them. Nail clippers, socks, alarm clock, router, resistance bands, headphones and many more I’m forgetting about. It’s all under one roof, delivery is usually very fast (sometimes it’s just one day on two-day delivery; when there are some delays and it takes an extra day they always notify me by e-mail). Amazon is great and I’m a more-than-satisfied consumer.
- ElBarto 8y ago
  It's not only about costs. It's really about hard work to deliver the best for customers. Many online retailers simply do not make efforts to deliver, quite apart from any cost consideration, and then they moan about Amazon. In addition, it's also about creating trust. Buying something online requires more trust than buying from a store so convincing people that it's safe and that there won't be any issues with returns and refunds is a big part of getting people to place and order and to come back.
itsmenotyou 8y ago
That people benefited from internet shopping and delivery is not a defense of a company treating it's workers badly or evading paying taxes. Let's not pretend amazon is the only company that might have delivered those efficiencies, they were just the most successful, the most ruthless.
- bluecalm 8y ago
  You can't expect companies to fight for greater good and sacrifice their interests for the overall good. In fact it's against the law for them to do that. Amazon hires a lot of people and in many countries pay reasonably well. With taxes it does what the law allows. If you want to change those things start with changing the law, ending policies hurting the working class (limiting low skill migration would be the first step) and getting rid of ridiculous taxes like corporate income tax you claim Amazon dodged (while in fact it pays what the law requires it to pay). Blaming the player for playing the game well while taking care of what they are legally obliged to do (shareholder value) is neither smart nor constructive.
  - pixl97 8y ago
    Oh no, the foxes eat us, that is their job... "Why dont we get rid of the foxes, we have the power to do that" No, no, that seems like a silly idea, status quo is the best.
  - macintux 8y ago
    > In fact it's against the law for them to do that. No, it’s not. The corporation’s interests must align with the shareholders, but there’s no law that says short-term profit is the only legal goal. Companies can and have sacrificed in order to build the community.
    - Nasrudith 8y ago
      Public trading often leads to that however with activist investors. Anyone who sees them acting suboptomally for the short term can buy in, pressure for more short term interests and lobby to get their way then jump off before it collapses with their gains. Even without that scheming continuous gains are demanded generally.
andrepd 8y ago
Shortening the delivery times from 3 to 2 days incurs a >40% increase in fuel costs. You claim the slight convenience of having stuff on your doorstep on Wednesday rather than Thursday not only outweighs that massive inefficiency and all its externalities, but is in fact a "significant improvement of the lives of millions of people".
coldtea 8y ago
>Way more people benefited from Amazon. It's cheaper. It set a new standard in delivery times and customer support. Its existence improved life of millions of people by significant margin. Have you counted the lives and communities it destroyed (e.g. closing local alternatives and smaller chains)? The environmental cost from such large scale delivery of every possible BS? The externalities (including accumulated power to single person who contracts for the military industrial complex and runs newspapers)?

KozmoNau7 8y ago

Amazon also set new lows for how to pay and treat employees, and how little it is possible to care about selling counterfeit products.

a008t 8y ago
Clearly they have been better than the alternatives for customers - otherwise, they would not be successful. Employees also have a choice - Amazon is not a monopoly.
- ionised 8y ago
  > Clearly they have been better than the alternatives for customers - otherwise, they would not be successful. Plenty of shitty companies are successful. They just need to. be more convenient than their competitors. > Employees also have a choice - Amazon is not a monopoly. Not yet.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  The customer's don't see the horrible conditions behind the scenes, all they see are cheap products. If you're a delivery driver, your job options are extremely limited. You can deliver fast food, or deliver for companies like Amazon. It's either that, or starve.
  - danielmg 8y ago
    Or learn another skill?
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      Not really something you can "just do", when you're living paycheck to paycheck and can barely even pay rent, even after moving to more affordable accommodation, while also keeping your ~15 year old car running, because it's your lifeline to even having a job in the first place.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
I never understand why people say things like this. It's not even remotely true. For instance we can quantify the salary comment. A quick search for fulfillment center work showed salaries starting at $12-$14/hour. The median pay for retail work, by contrast, is $11.24 [1], which means 50% of workers earn less than that. It's not possible to similarly conveniently quantify concern about counterfeit, but if you think they genuinely do not care about it then I don't even know what to say. Even from a purely greed centered point of view, counterfeits hurt mid to longterm revenue. [1] - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/retail-sales-workers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/retail-sales-workers.htm
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  I base my impression of their working conditions on a friend of mine, who's worked both the warehouses and as a delivery driver. The managers are slave drivers, and if you're just a minute or two behind on a schedules delivery, you get dinged, a black mark on your employment record and a severe talking-down. Even if the delay is of no fault of your own (bad traffic, weather, etc.), it's seen as a personal failure on your part. No level of pay can make up for being treated like shit. Regarding the counterfeits, Amazon loves to say how they're dealing with the issue, but the examples just keep piling up. And of course their childish behavior around Chromecast and Youtube.

csydas 8y ago

I'm not sure I'd allow the delivery times and customer support to be attributed as a real thing to Amazon. Both were meant as audience capturing tactics and were basically unattainable by most all other competitors due to costs -- Amazon only avoided it riding on a large wave of money and eating costs for years until it was the only game in town. Now you can't have a thread about Amazon without constant complaints about the 2-Day shipping never really being 2-Day shipping, the constant fakes that plague the Amazon inventory (with a seemingly blind-eye from Amazon itself on it), and so on. These weren't really public goods introduced by Amazon, as plenty of stores handle the customer service side just fine in most cases, and the delivery stuff was mostly just investors subsidizing the costs for a time, which appears to no longer be a major focal point.

darawk 8y ago
Except that you can still just as easily buy things from normal retailers. They're not dead. People choose not to because the value of obtaining things from Amazon remains higher to them.
TheTrotters 8y ago
Perhaps it’s selection bias. People who are happy with Amazon may not see the need to comment about it in every thread. But to counter this trend: I am very, very happy that Amazon exists. It’s allowed me to discover and buy plenty of books that I otherwise would never read or sample. Not to mention dozens of everyday items I buy from them. Nail clippers, socks, alarm clock, router, resistance bands, headphones and many more I’m forgetting about. It’s all under one roof, delivery is usually very fast (sometimes it’s just one day on two-day delivery; when there are some delays and it takes an extra day they always notify me by e-mail). Amazon is great and I’m a more-than-satisfied consumer.
ElBarto 8y ago
It's not only about costs. It's really about hard work to deliver the best for customers. Many online retailers simply do not make efforts to deliver, quite apart from any cost consideration, and then they moan about Amazon. In addition, it's also about creating trust. Buying something online requires more trust than buying from a store so convincing people that it's safe and that there won't be any issues with returns and refunds is a big part of getting people to place and order and to come back.

itsmenotyou 8y ago

That people benefited from internet shopping and delivery is not a defense of a company treating it's workers badly or evading paying taxes. Let's not pretend amazon is the only company that might have delivered those efficiencies, they were just the most successful, the most ruthless.

bluecalm 8y ago
You can't expect companies to fight for greater good and sacrifice their interests for the overall good. In fact it's against the law for them to do that. Amazon hires a lot of people and in many countries pay reasonably well. With taxes it does what the law allows. If you want to change those things start with changing the law, ending policies hurting the working class (limiting low skill migration would be the first step) and getting rid of ridiculous taxes like corporate income tax you claim Amazon dodged (while in fact it pays what the law requires it to pay). Blaming the player for playing the game well while taking care of what they are legally obliged to do (shareholder value) is neither smart nor constructive.
- pixl97 8y ago
  Oh no, the foxes eat us, that is their job... "Why dont we get rid of the foxes, we have the power to do that" No, no, that seems like a silly idea, status quo is the best.
- macintux 8y ago
  > In fact it's against the law for them to do that. No, it’s not. The corporation’s interests must align with the shareholders, but there’s no law that says short-term profit is the only legal goal. Companies can and have sacrificed in order to build the community.
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    Public trading often leads to that however with activist investors. Anyone who sees them acting suboptomally for the short term can buy in, pressure for more short term interests and lobby to get their way then jump off before it collapses with their gains. Even without that scheming continuous gains are demanded generally.

andrepd 8y ago

Shortening the delivery times from 3 to 2 days incurs a >40% increase in fuel costs. You claim the slight convenience of having stuff on your doorstep on Wednesday rather than Thursday not only outweighs that massive inefficiency and all its externalities, but is in fact a "significant improvement of the lives of millions of people".

coldtea 8y ago

>Way more people benefited from Amazon. It's cheaper. It set a new standard in delivery times and customer support. Its existence improved life of millions of people by significant margin. Have you counted the lives and communities it destroyed (e.g. closing local alternatives and smaller chains)? The environmental cost from such large scale delivery of every possible BS? The externalities (including accumulated power to single person who contracts for the military industrial complex and runs newspapers)?