5 ms·

Linux's new CoC is a piece of shit

27 points by laresistance 8y ago

aritmo 8y ago
The choice of words in the title is the reason that Linus is taking a short break. That post uses "SJW" as a slur for activists.
- aikah 8y ago
  > That post uses "SJW" as a slur for activists. No, it's fitting, "SJW" are slacktivists, not activists. When James Kyles throws a tantrum and insults people working for Palantir or Microsoft on Github issue pages, he might win a few internet points and likes on twitter, but he is not making a difference in the real world.
  - atoav 8y ago
    I still don't see how this links to Linux having a Code of Conduct. If there is never a problem with sexism/racism/harassment, you can simply ignore this text. If there is one, there needs to be no discussion about whether it is accepted or not. I am against thought police, but Linux is about code. It is not hard to keep your thoughts about people to yourself and instead try to critique code in a fair fashion. It doesn't matter if a man, a woman, a dog in a costume or a billion monkeys on typewriters wrote the code. Bad code is bad, good code is good. Anything that stops people from making it about people rather than code is also good IMO.
    - aikah 8y ago
      > Anything that stops people from making it about people rather than code is also good IMO. No, it doesn't, this Drupal story demonstrates that COC are useful to get rid of people one doesn't like because they somehow "hurt" somebody by doing something in their private life. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm...
      - atoav 8y ago
        The CoC clearly speaks about harassment and not about personal lifestyle choices. If you keep your private life to yourself you should be fine. Can a CoC be abused? Sure, if the community culture allows it. Does that possibility invalidate a CoC alltogether? Probably not. A CoC will codify allowed behaviour which decreases the freedom for some forms of expression, most of which were destructive in nature and wasting everybodies time anyways. So in a certain sense you loose something, but you will also get something. Very talented persons who are to shy to use their ellbows all the time might be more willing to contribute etc. IMO a ok tradeoff
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
lucideer 8y ago
In the opener the author seems to generally agree that toning down ad hominem conduct is a good thing: > He's stated that he'd tone down his language (no more calls to "retroactively abort" people and such. This is all good, and I support it. One of my greatest fears is having my patch/contrition to a FOSS project be publicly dissected and ridiculed. But his bullet point objections either contradict the above (transphobia should be acceptable), or are basically contentless (objecting to a part of the CoC that the author says doesn't apply to kernel dev). Abbreviated summary of the bullet points on why the CoC is bad: 1. The CoC's author objected to transphobia within the Opal compiler project 2. The new CoC means Linus will need to tone down his language (which we seemed to be ok with in the opener). 3. The new CoC doesn't allow discrimination. Discrimination has never been a problem in kernel dev (if you really believe that, then the CoC shouldn't change anything) 4. The new CoC requires all maintainers to be of the same technical ability? (not sure where this idea came from, it doesn't require this)
- baud147258 8y ago
  > 1. The CoC's author objected to transphobia within the Opal compiler project The mentioned transphobia was never in the Opal project, it was a comment made outside the project, by a member, which would be outside the scope of a such CoC. For point 4, I think the problem for the author, was that a maintainer won't have the possibility to say a patch is bad to avoid discriminating on 'technical ability'
sunpazed 8y ago
Totally unrelated, but I couldn’t help notice that the OP shared an “old.reddit.com” URL. Glad to know it’s not just me that hates the new Reddit UX.
- yayana 8y ago
  TFA crashed my mobile browser, and you say the new is even worse? An email to a mailing list would have been more appropriate on a few fronts. If not for the new CoC, I might express that differently. </sarcasm>
atoav 8y ago
I can't see anything wrong with the Code of Conduct. Some people call it "toxic" and they are afraid of the "SWJs" taking over. This is only a problem if you try to loose focus on the quality of the work. Some argue that now that Linus realized how his communication is received sometimes, he will suddenly not be able anymore to tell people when shitty code is shitty. There are a billion ways to tell somebody their code is shitty with out attacking the person themselves, some of which might even make them realize that you are right. And Linus certainly didn't sound like he doesn't care about the kernel anymore. IMO the Code of Conduct has nothing irrational or outrageous in it: * don't be sexist (you can critique someones code without making it about their gender or gender identity) * don't be racist (you can critique someones code without making it about their race or origin) * don't be shitty to people who know less (you can critique someones code without making them about them beeing a noob, and help them getting better) etc. I don't see how having more harassment would aid code quality.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- finnthehuman 8y ago
  I don't think it's actively bad, I just don't find it the best tool for the job. I tend to get bogged down in 'ends' vs. 'means' more than the next person. The flexibility I have around separating paths to a goal from the goal itself often gets me criticized for not supporting the goal, and I'll eye others with suspicion at how they'll go to bat for things that aren't the goal. My objection to this code might be something in the line of "scope creep," or that it's "distracted," even though those aren't really the right words and might carry connotations I don't mean to imply. It feels like it's more about getting across a list of the ways it's possible to be Wrong On The Internet than it's about inspiring and instilling healthy and productive communication among adults. -- Here's an example: I'm a member of a 500-person volunteer force that collaborates online, and we only get together in person to do our thing ~7 days a year. A huge flamewar will break out in our online communication 3 or 4 times a year. The prevailing opinion is one I agree with, but I still find the people I agree with argue the points in a way that are toxic to the overall org. But I have yet to see a code of conduct that would stop or heal the damage they're doing. My department is absent from those threads with a regularity that hasn't gone unnoticed. We didn't plan it nor do we have an internal explanation for how it came to be. But our department head has gotten positive remarks on it from other heads and it would be naive to say it doesn't help maintain our reputation and working relationships outside our team. We cultivate it now, but I'm trying to figure out what caused it in the first place so I can spread that elsewhere.
thinkingemote 8y ago
I am sure the chip corporations are going to be happier knowing they are going to get an easier ride to make their changes now.

27 points by laresistance 8y ago

The choice of words in the title is the reason that Linus is taking a short break. That post uses "SJW" as a slur for activists.

aikah 8y ago
> That post uses "SJW" as a slur for activists. No, it's fitting, "SJW" are slacktivists, not activists. When James Kyles throws a tantrum and insults people working for Palantir or Microsoft on Github issue pages, he might win a few internet points and likes on twitter, but he is not making a difference in the real world.
- atoav 8y ago
  I still don't see how this links to Linux having a Code of Conduct. If there is never a problem with sexism/racism/harassment, you can simply ignore this text. If there is one, there needs to be no discussion about whether it is accepted or not. I am against thought police, but Linux is about code. It is not hard to keep your thoughts about people to yourself and instead try to critique code in a fair fashion. It doesn't matter if a man, a woman, a dog in a costume or a billion monkeys on typewriters wrote the code. Bad code is bad, good code is good. Anything that stops people from making it about people rather than code is also good IMO.
  - aikah 8y ago
    > Anything that stops people from making it about people rather than code is also good IMO. No, it doesn't, this Drupal story demonstrates that COC are useful to get rid of people one doesn't like because they somehow "hurt" somebody by doing something in their private life. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm...
    - atoav 8y ago
      The CoC clearly speaks about harassment and not about personal lifestyle choices. If you keep your private life to yourself you should be fine. Can a CoC be abused? Sure, if the community culture allows it. Does that possibility invalidate a CoC alltogether? Probably not. A CoC will codify allowed behaviour which decreases the freedom for some forms of expression, most of which were destructive in nature and wasting everybodies time anyways. So in a certain sense you loose something, but you will also get something. Very talented persons who are to shy to use their ellbows all the time might be more willing to contribute etc. IMO a ok tradeoff
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]

lucideer 8y ago

In the opener the author seems to generally agree that toning down ad hominem conduct is a good thing: > He's stated that he'd tone down his language (no more calls to "retroactively abort" people and such. This is all good, and I support it. One of my greatest fears is having my patch/contrition to a FOSS project be publicly dissected and ridiculed. But his bullet point objections either contradict the above (transphobia should be acceptable), or are basically contentless (objecting to a part of the CoC that the author says doesn't apply to kernel dev). Abbreviated summary of the bullet points on why the CoC is bad: 1. The CoC's author objected to transphobia within the Opal compiler project 2. The new CoC means Linus will need to tone down his language (which we seemed to be ok with in the opener). 3. The new CoC doesn't allow discrimination. Discrimination has never been a problem in kernel dev (if you really believe that, then the CoC shouldn't change anything) 4. The new CoC requires all maintainers to be of the same technical ability? (not sure where this idea came from, it doesn't require this)

baud147258 8y ago
> 1. The CoC's author objected to transphobia within the Opal compiler project The mentioned transphobia was never in the Opal project, it was a comment made outside the project, by a member, which would be outside the scope of a such CoC. For point 4, I think the problem for the author, was that a maintainer won't have the possibility to say a patch is bad to avoid discriminating on 'technical ability'

sunpazed 8y ago

Totally unrelated, but I couldn’t help notice that the OP shared an “old.reddit.com” URL. Glad to know it’s not just me that hates the new Reddit UX.

yayana 8y ago
TFA crashed my mobile browser, and you say the new is even worse? An email to a mailing list would have been more appropriate on a few fronts. If not for the new CoC, I might express that differently. </sarcasm>

atoav 8y ago

I can't see anything wrong with the Code of Conduct. Some people call it "toxic" and they are afraid of the "SWJs" taking over. This is only a problem if you try to loose focus on the quality of the work. Some argue that now that Linus realized how his communication is received sometimes, he will suddenly not be able anymore to tell people when shitty code is shitty. There are a billion ways to tell somebody their code is shitty with out attacking the person themselves, some of which might even make them realize that you are right. And Linus certainly didn't sound like he doesn't care about the kernel anymore. IMO the Code of Conduct has nothing irrational or outrageous in it: * don't be sexist (you can critique someones code without making it about their gender or gender identity) * don't be racist (you can critique someones code without making it about their race or origin) * don't be shitty to people who know less (you can critique someones code without making them about them beeing a noob, and help them getting better) etc. I don't see how having more harassment would aid code quality.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
finnthehuman 8y ago
I don't think it's actively bad, I just don't find it the best tool for the job. I tend to get bogged down in 'ends' vs. 'means' more than the next person. The flexibility I have around separating paths to a goal from the goal itself often gets me criticized for not supporting the goal, and I'll eye others with suspicion at how they'll go to bat for things that aren't the goal. My objection to this code might be something in the line of "scope creep," or that it's "distracted," even though those aren't really the right words and might carry connotations I don't mean to imply. It feels like it's more about getting across a list of the ways it's possible to be Wrong On The Internet than it's about inspiring and instilling healthy and productive communication among adults. -- Here's an example: I'm a member of a 500-person volunteer force that collaborates online, and we only get together in person to do our thing ~7 days a year. A huge flamewar will break out in our online communication 3 or 4 times a year. The prevailing opinion is one I agree with, but I still find the people I agree with argue the points in a way that are toxic to the overall org. But I have yet to see a code of conduct that would stop or heal the damage they're doing. My department is absent from those threads with a regularity that hasn't gone unnoticed. We didn't plan it nor do we have an internal explanation for how it came to be. But our department head has gotten positive remarks on it from other heads and it would be naive to say it doesn't help maintain our reputation and working relationships outside our team. We cultivate it now, but I'm trying to figure out what caused it in the first place so I can spread that elsewhere.

thinkingemote 8y ago

I am sure the chip corporations are going to be happier knowing they are going to get an easier ride to make their changes now.