8 ms·
> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "hea
by wolfgke 8y ago
> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well.
Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.
- JoshTriplett 8y agoHence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding.
- wolfgke 8y ago> Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding. This writing will not lead to a common understanding, but just one layer of indirection: The strife will now be about how different people have different beliefs how the words in the writing are to be interpreted. On the other hand: the mere existence of a CoC is a seed of strife since it is an open invitation for Social Justice Warriors.
- pron 8y agoThis is why a governing body codifies their interpretation of the matter into rules that everyone who wants to be part of the community has to abide by.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoIt's a nice theory, but the reality is that those rules tend to get enforced differently for different people, so it fails to entirely stamp out problem behavior. Shit runs downhill. Whomever is at the top is the DNA for how things actually work. To me, the good news is Torvalds is taking some time to figure himself out. That is likely to make a major difference. Few people bother to really deal with the man in the mirror in earnest.
- sridca 8y agoYea. I fail to see how something like CoC can ensure a truly harmless community, when it is the covert power (the unspoken vibes, ambiance, etc.) that ultimately dictates the level of malice in a community.
- JoshTriplett 8y agoA code of conduct alone doesn't, but it's a start. A statement like this one from the project lead(s) helps as well, to set the overall direction. This isn't the end of the process for the kernel community; it's a major step in the right direction.
- sridca 8y agoIt remains to be seen how this all plays out. Personally I remain skeptical, because in one community I saw first-hand how the people at the top used something like CoC to justify their malicious acts, in the name of being welcoming. It is the same old morality game that does not ensure any genuine harmony.
- pron 8y agoOf course, but it's a start and a symbolic gesture.
- wolfgke 8y ago> Of course, but it's a start and a symbolic gesture. In Germany, they say: "'Gut' ist das Gegenteil von 'gut gemeint'" ("'Good' is the opposite of 'well-intentioned'"; I am aware that the pun does not translate well into English).
- tptacek 8y agoApparently that just didn't occur to Chris Mason, Olof Johansson, Dan Williams, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Steven Rostedt, and Linus Torvalds.
- wolfgke 8y ago> Apparently that just didn't occur to Chris Mason, Olof Johansson, Dan Williams, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Steven Rostedt, and Linus Torvalds. But to Rafael Avila de Espindola (LLVM): > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Rafael-Espindola https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LLVM-Raf... > http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.htm... and many FreeBSD developers: > https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-the-community-become-fragile.64690/ https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-the-community-become-f... > https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7xapx2/freebsds_new_geek_feminismbased_code_of_conduct/ https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7xapx2/freebsds_ne... > https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7y43fk/censorship_on_rfreebsd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7y43fk/censorship_... > https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7yby9i/donations_to_freebsd_foundation_after_geek/ https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/7yby9i/donations_t...
- geofft 8y agoI don't see any FreeBSD developers in any of the four links you provided. In one of them I see a specific claim that the people in the thread don't seem to be connected with the FreeBSD community.
- tptacek 8y agoThat is a non sequitur response to my comment.
- loeg 8y agoI am a FreeBSD developer. None of those links are or represent FreeBSD developers.
- meowface 8y agoI don't think the language of the Contributor Covenant [1] contains anything really objectionable by anyone, even people who wouldn't consider themselves left-leaning. "Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks" is arguably the only ambiguous part. That said, I am a bit skeptical of the CC creators' motives and goals. [1] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-con...
- DC-3 8y agoThe contributor covenant is fairly in-objectionable. Yes, the list of 'privileges' is a bit of a checklist for left-wing soapboxes, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to explicitly list traits commonly targeted by bullies and harassers. The problem many people have with it, as you imply, is that it's the thin end of a doorstop, at the thick end of which is the Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org/ https://postmeritocracy.org/ Written by the same author and often championed by the same people as the Contributor Covenant, it espouses some rather more radical ideas which, while carefully stated to sound superficially agreeable, are not ones I would consider beneficial to the open source community.
- Ws32ok 8y agoJust one example from that manifesto: “We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people.” This a terrible slippery slope. It eliminates any military, security or even anything useful. A thief’s well-being is meant to be negatively impacted by a security measure. A guidance system in a missile is intended to negatively impact the well-being of the enemy. I feel negatively impacted by this manifesto. So by definition every signatory is in violation of that manifesto.
- tptacek 8y agoThe Contributor Covenant says nothing of the sort. It is entirely reasonable for developers to believe that the statements in the Covenant are a baseline for professionalism and, at the same time to disagree amongst themselves about whether they should contribute to military projects (or whether they buy into a "post-meritocracy" philosophy).
- tom_ 8y agoThis is the really interesting part of introducing a code of conduct to me: that it flushes a particular type of person out of the woodwork. They are forced to reveal themselves. Forced. It's like you're playing one of those hidden role games, and suddenly you do something that means people have to reveal their concealed cards. It's almost magical.
- wolfgke 8y ago> This is the really interesting part of introducing a code of conduct to me: that it flushes a particular type of person out of the woodwork. They are forced to reveal themselves. Forced. It's like you're playing one of those hidden role games, and suddenly you do something that means people have to reveal their concealed cards. It's almost magical. So you advocate a witch hunt against these people?!
- mcguire 8y agoAttacking ideas is fine. Attacking people is not. There are fine gradations that are open for interpretation.