9 ms·

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

by Leszek 8y ago

jim-jim-jim 8y ago
We'll still have Theo.
Zhyl 8y ago
Yes. Tech people the world over need to remember the person. I don't even mean in a slightly soppy 'everyone is a real person with real feelings' way. I mean that in a practical sense you really hit productivity if you're rude. Simple exchanges or corrections become arguments because one party was acerbic or inflammatory which caused the second party to be defensive. The discussion gets derailed, the point gets lost. Nobody learns. The project deviates. Social skills and emotional intelligence aren't fluff that smart people don't have to deal with. If you want to make great software and create great organisations you have to treat people with professionalism and respect.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  ..and if productivity was better from disrespecting people, then that would be the way to go? Well...That seems to be the actual case. Our current system seems to not to respect people, or the planet (or other animals besides humans.) It seems to respect money, 'productivity', 'efficiency' and 'growth'.
  - chc 8y ago
    This is a non sequitur unless you have a hidden assumption along the lines of "We currently have the best of all possible systems."
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      Sorry, I don't know what you mean. I was trying to say something about my feeling that having a policy of respecting people because it's good for productivity seems obscene to me. Once you are thinking that way, whether you decided it's good for productivity or not, you no longer respect people, it seems to me. That is often called "losing your soul".
      - Zhyl 8y ago
        Just to clarify, I'm definitely not trying to suggest that this is the only reason you should be respectful. This is more a message about people within tech, who are numerous, that get frustrated with working with other people due to actual or perceived incompetence. The parent comment mentioned the 'it's ok to be an asshole if you're right' myth, which is particularly prominent in software projects or in tech related discussions. I would deduce that the only reason that smart, capable people do not invest the time or the energy into moderating their tone and choosing their words is because they don't see value in it. My point is that there is empirical value in it even if you're purely seeing it as a means to an ends. Absolutely the rest of us who are just nice and pleasant as part of our day to day should continue to do so, we just need to remember that their isn't really a justification for ad hominem attacks as part of professional discourse.
        yesenadam 8y ago
        Thank you! :-) Eloquently put.
- zamalek 8y ago
  I don't treat people the same way, but I appreciate the blunt honesty. If we're having a few drinks as friends and you tell me that I'm an idiot, of course I will take that personally; however, tell me that as a developer and I'm motivated. So far as that goes, my mind works the same as Linus. I err on the side of praise, which makes me different - although my lack of praise for some individuals probably speaks as loud as Linus' vitriol. Your ability is not a reflection of your character, i.e. "you are not your code." I have no interest in maintaining Linux, maybe I would 20 years prior to now when choices were generally more than "drivers." That being said, Linus would make an excellent mentor for those who can separate their code and themselves. He is an artisan, in the most classical sense. Every one of his maintainers is an apprentice. It's an incredibly unpopular perspective to have - but the epitome of professional decorum is to attack a person's work without attacking their life. Smart people are able to discern the difference between their work (which is fallible) and themselves (which is infallible). I am a great developer, but the fact that even better ones exist is inspiring and I'd hope they would tell me what I'm doing wrong. My assignment for the next N sprints is to clue up employees on debugging prod. I will destroy that assignment but, hell, I would prefer to work with people who cared enough to research it themselves; as I did.
  - matwood 8y ago
    > but I appreciate the blunt honesty. There is a difference between blunt honesty and being rude. Honesty is pointing out that you're not pulling your weight, or how you did something was incorrect and not up to the teams standards. Rude is calling you names or otherwise insulting you. The insults also often lack any reference to the issue. Telling someone they are an idiot does nothing for that person or the team.
    - tomp 8y ago
      What are some examples of him insulting people (as opposed to their work/code)?
      - _arvin 8y ago
        We’ll be here all day. He would associate the code to the person, which goes against the “I am not my code.” that many adhere to. Linus is stepping up and finally owning up to his behavior. We owe him a lot so we gave him a pass before. Now we won’t hopefully need to anymore. To be fair, he has incredible judgment and we defer to him when it comes to being the road block to merging bad code.
- petercooper 8y ago
  I'm not empathetic and have poor EI (medical reason) and have concluded similarly that being rude as a general rule is unproductive. First, I don't want to be on the receiving end of it myself(!), but nor do I want the time sinks of drama, a mutiny, or a revenge attack. Being thoughtful about your words seems to be a good idea for anyone, whether they're emotionally intelligent or not :-)
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  I've worked with assholes, that think they are god's gift and really they are just hampering the business goals of the company and don't realise it. They were constantly like a petulant 5 year olds during a tantrum, and I don't work with people like that. I quit such jobs. Done that 3 times now, first time took me 6 months, second time 3 months, last time 18 hours. Note - this is not rage quitting - they were a reasoned decision based on the likelihood of being about to resolve the problem through negotiation, and comparing that to opportunity cost. Fuck it life is too short. Similarly would I contribute to an Free/OS project with such people for free? Hell no.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
Nasrudith 8y ago
Is that really a myth though? Being surly and right can be workable indefinitely. As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. Fundamentally they would be a parasite. Not a dichotomous extreme though in that it is better not to be rude unless it is called for. And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil.
- calcifer 8y ago
  > As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. > And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil. You have constructed quite the strawman to argue against the myth, well done.
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    The point being that rude isn't evil in itself although it may be inappropriate. The proper response to someone wanting to hold a klan meeting in your house is "get the hell out". Rudeness is a feedback mechanism. The point being that while less than ideal it isn't unsuccessful in itself. Extremes are useful for extrapolation - even if it will never reach that point it is helpful to have the worst in mind to be vigilant of the flaws it may start to drift into.
    - olavk 8y ago
      You are comparing a contributor submitting a kernel patch in good faith with people holding a klan meeting in your house?
- smsm42 8y ago
  There's no dichotomy here - you can be both right and wrong, and rude and polite. These are not related, and frequently not correlated at the least either, these are just two independent coordinates. Moreover, in many cases, you yourself is not in the position to know where on the right-wrong spectrum you ended up. Linus tends up to end closer to the right than wrong end, usually - but this is not universal, and it's not correlated with rudeness. Since being in rude-wrong quadrant makes you a jerk, and being in rude-right quadrant is no better than being in polite-right one, it is a good rule to try and stay on the polite half-plane as much as you can. Linus seems to realize that too, which is especially great because he is one of the few that can actually get away with many things. So his realizing he still should not is IMHO a positive development.
tomohawk 8y ago
I have to wonder if Linux would even be remembered other than as a footnote at this time without his forceful personality being in the mix. Many things fail when they get pecked to death by ducks. His forceful personality carried the day on many occasions.
- eridius 8y ago
  You can be forceful without being an asshole about it.
  - tomohawk 8y ago
    Sure, but can you be successful in the context in which he was successful? He succeeded against all odds, and has done something great. He's no saint, but none of us are. Like it or not, who he was was instrumental in this success. The parts you admire and the parts you disagree with.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    In reality, being 'forceful' will almost always be perceived as being kind of an asshole. BUT - there's a world of difference between being 'forceful perceived as jerk' and 'demeaning and needlessly insulting or derogatory'. Never a reason to put people down. In Linus' 2008 speech at Google talking about Git, he said he created it partly to avoid politics - he can just have people copy his stuff into their own repo and go off yonder and not have to deal with them.
- paulddraper 8y ago
  Or maybe his brashness was irrelevant. What would Steve Jobs have been known for if not for his turtleneck? /s
  - danso 8y ago
    I agree it's mostly pointless to argue one way or another what Linux would be in a hypothetical timeline in which Linus was less rude/brash. But it seems ironic to bring up Jobs as a counter-example, because he most definitely was known to be an asshole who said and did things far more reprehensible than what Linus has been accused of. But Jobs has no shortage of first-hand witnesses who testify that his force of personality (e.g. the reality distortion field) was pivotal to Apple's success. I'm a Church of Woz worshipper myself, but it seems clear he would not have (reluctantly) agreed to quit his anonymous HP engineering job to join Apple, had Jobs not literally thrown a crying tantrum (and IIRC from one of his biographers, he did this in Woz's own home).
Mononokay 8y ago
He could, and still can. Literally nothing's stopping him other than a personal decision to subjectively improve his behavior. You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right.
- smsm42 8y ago
  You can, but you shouldn't.
- danso 8y ago
  > You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right. What is the basis for this "might makes right" axiom when it comes to collaboration? I mean, obviously, anyone -- winners and losers -- can choose to be rude and insulting for any reason they'd like, they aren't barred by law or regulation. What tangential or moral benefits do you believe come from adopting a "winner has the right to be rude" mentality, particularly in an open source community? I think it's almost self-evident what the drawbacks are -- for example, that the risk of humiliation might stifle people's willingness to debate at all -- so what are the upsides to fostering that kind of environment?
wolfgke 8y ago
> Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts It is not the trueness or falseness of that myth that has changed, but the mainstream in the society.
unimpressive 8y ago
I'm mostly parsing this as external pressure forcing him to change, rather than a comment on the value of the behavior one way or the other. I suspect on net this is going to be seen as martyrdom, with a vocal minority of people who will bring it up in every conversation as a suppression tactic. EDIT: That having been said, my personal opinion is that Linus could stand to tone it down a bit. He often goes beyond "unrelentingly firm on quality" and into "personal attack", the line between them can be subtle but hopefully he'll figure it out without becoming a pushover.
- 1000units 8y ago
  That's my impression as well. He definitely seems to be mocking whoever told him "look yourself in the mirror" at least.
- noobermin 8y ago
  Of course, no one is suggesting he become a pushover. I don't think it's really that hard to not be a weakling and at the same time not be a douche. It's not a "gray line" either, unless the extremes are either 31 Kelvin and 1000 KeV.
anothergoogler 8y ago
It's not a myth, and Linux is an unmitigated success to this point. Torvalds' admission is a reminder that, for all but the most callous, it's not sustainable way to behave. It catches up with your conscience. It took almost 30 years for it to catch up with Torvalds'.
HaoZeke 8y ago
That's not a myth. Moreover, people here seem to simply rejoicing.
jlebar 8y ago
Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts Yeah, reading the comments here, I'm not so hopeful.
losvedir 8y ago
It certainly will if Linux kernel development continues successfully. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case, but you can't really use this to end the myth just yet.
agentultra 8y ago
As my partner once put it, “you can be right or you can have friends.” The truth is you can have both but if you put such a high importance on being right, all the time, then you’ll drive most people away.
- rplst8 8y ago
  I don't code to make friends. I code to survive.
- joesb 8y ago
  You don't have to be rude to be right.
djsumdog 8y ago
The "Dr. House" or "Rich Sanchez" effect?

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

by Leszek 8y ago

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

jim-jim-jim 8y ago

We'll still have Theo.

Zhyl 8y ago

Yes. Tech people the world over need to remember the person. I don't even mean in a slightly soppy 'everyone is a real person with real feelings' way. I mean that in a practical sense you really hit productivity if you're rude. Simple exchanges or corrections become arguments because one party was acerbic or inflammatory which caused the second party to be defensive. The discussion gets derailed, the point gets lost. Nobody learns. The project deviates. Social skills and emotional intelligence aren't fluff that smart people don't have to deal with. If you want to make great software and create great organisations you have to treat people with professionalism and respect.

yesenadam 8y ago
..and if productivity was better from disrespecting people, then that would be the way to go? Well...That seems to be the actual case. Our current system seems to not to respect people, or the planet (or other animals besides humans.) It seems to respect money, 'productivity', 'efficiency' and 'growth'.
- chc 8y ago
  This is a non sequitur unless you have a hidden assumption along the lines of "We currently have the best of all possible systems."
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    Sorry, I don't know what you mean. I was trying to say something about my feeling that having a policy of respecting people because it's good for productivity seems obscene to me. Once you are thinking that way, whether you decided it's good for productivity or not, you no longer respect people, it seems to me. That is often called "losing your soul".
    - Zhyl 8y ago
      Just to clarify, I'm definitely not trying to suggest that this is the only reason you should be respectful. This is more a message about people within tech, who are numerous, that get frustrated with working with other people due to actual or perceived incompetence. The parent comment mentioned the 'it's ok to be an asshole if you're right' myth, which is particularly prominent in software projects or in tech related discussions. I would deduce that the only reason that smart, capable people do not invest the time or the energy into moderating their tone and choosing their words is because they don't see value in it. My point is that there is empirical value in it even if you're purely seeing it as a means to an ends. Absolutely the rest of us who are just nice and pleasant as part of our day to day should continue to do so, we just need to remember that their isn't really a justification for ad hominem attacks as part of professional discourse.
      - yesenadam 8y ago
        Thank you! :-) Eloquently put.
zamalek 8y ago
I don't treat people the same way, but I appreciate the blunt honesty. If we're having a few drinks as friends and you tell me that I'm an idiot, of course I will take that personally; however, tell me that as a developer and I'm motivated. So far as that goes, my mind works the same as Linus. I err on the side of praise, which makes me different - although my lack of praise for some individuals probably speaks as loud as Linus' vitriol. Your ability is not a reflection of your character, i.e. "you are not your code." I have no interest in maintaining Linux, maybe I would 20 years prior to now when choices were generally more than "drivers." That being said, Linus would make an excellent mentor for those who can separate their code and themselves. He is an artisan, in the most classical sense. Every one of his maintainers is an apprentice. It's an incredibly unpopular perspective to have - but the epitome of professional decorum is to attack a person's work without attacking their life. Smart people are able to discern the difference between their work (which is fallible) and themselves (which is infallible). I am a great developer, but the fact that even better ones exist is inspiring and I'd hope they would tell me what I'm doing wrong. My assignment for the next N sprints is to clue up employees on debugging prod. I will destroy that assignment but, hell, I would prefer to work with people who cared enough to research it themselves; as I did.
- matwood 8y ago
  > but I appreciate the blunt honesty. There is a difference between blunt honesty and being rude. Honesty is pointing out that you're not pulling your weight, or how you did something was incorrect and not up to the teams standards. Rude is calling you names or otherwise insulting you. The insults also often lack any reference to the issue. Telling someone they are an idiot does nothing for that person or the team.
  - tomp 8y ago
    What are some examples of him insulting people (as opposed to their work/code)?
    - _arvin 8y ago
      We’ll be here all day. He would associate the code to the person, which goes against the “I am not my code.” that many adhere to. Linus is stepping up and finally owning up to his behavior. We owe him a lot so we gave him a pass before. Now we won’t hopefully need to anymore. To be fair, he has incredible judgment and we defer to him when it comes to being the road block to merging bad code.
petercooper 8y ago
I'm not empathetic and have poor EI (medical reason) and have concluded similarly that being rude as a general rule is unproductive. First, I don't want to be on the receiving end of it myself(!), but nor do I want the time sinks of drama, a mutiny, or a revenge attack. Being thoughtful about your words seems to be a good idea for anyone, whether they're emotionally intelligent or not :-)
quickthrower2 8y ago
I've worked with assholes, that think they are god's gift and really they are just hampering the business goals of the company and don't realise it. They were constantly like a petulant 5 year olds during a tantrum, and I don't work with people like that. I quit such jobs. Done that 3 times now, first time took me 6 months, second time 3 months, last time 18 hours. Note - this is not rage quitting - they were a reasoned decision based on the likelihood of being about to resolve the problem through negotiation, and comparing that to opportunity cost. Fuck it life is too short. Similarly would I contribute to an Free/OS project with such people for free? Hell no.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

Nasrudith 8y ago

Is that really a myth though? Being surly and right can be workable indefinitely. As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. Fundamentally they would be a parasite. Not a dichotomous extreme though in that it is better not to be rude unless it is called for. And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil.

calcifer 8y ago
> As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. > And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil. You have constructed quite the strawman to argue against the myth, well done.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  The point being that rude isn't evil in itself although it may be inappropriate. The proper response to someone wanting to hold a klan meeting in your house is "get the hell out". Rudeness is a feedback mechanism. The point being that while less than ideal it isn't unsuccessful in itself. Extremes are useful for extrapolation - even if it will never reach that point it is helpful to have the worst in mind to be vigilant of the flaws it may start to drift into.
  - olavk 8y ago
    You are comparing a contributor submitting a kernel patch in good faith with people holding a klan meeting in your house?
smsm42 8y ago
There's no dichotomy here - you can be both right and wrong, and rude and polite. These are not related, and frequently not correlated at the least either, these are just two independent coordinates. Moreover, in many cases, you yourself is not in the position to know where on the right-wrong spectrum you ended up. Linus tends up to end closer to the right than wrong end, usually - but this is not universal, and it's not correlated with rudeness. Since being in rude-wrong quadrant makes you a jerk, and being in rude-right quadrant is no better than being in polite-right one, it is a good rule to try and stay on the polite half-plane as much as you can. Linus seems to realize that too, which is especially great because he is one of the few that can actually get away with many things. So his realizing he still should not is IMHO a positive development.

tomohawk 8y ago

I have to wonder if Linux would even be remembered other than as a footnote at this time without his forceful personality being in the mix. Many things fail when they get pecked to death by ducks. His forceful personality carried the day on many occasions.

eridius 8y ago
You can be forceful without being an asshole about it.
- tomohawk 8y ago
  Sure, but can you be successful in the context in which he was successful? He succeeded against all odds, and has done something great. He's no saint, but none of us are. Like it or not, who he was was instrumental in this success. The parts you admire and the parts you disagree with.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  In reality, being 'forceful' will almost always be perceived as being kind of an asshole. BUT - there's a world of difference between being 'forceful perceived as jerk' and 'demeaning and needlessly insulting or derogatory'. Never a reason to put people down. In Linus' 2008 speech at Google talking about Git, he said he created it partly to avoid politics - he can just have people copy his stuff into their own repo and go off yonder and not have to deal with them.
paulddraper 8y ago
Or maybe his brashness was irrelevant. What would Steve Jobs have been known for if not for his turtleneck? /s
- danso 8y ago
  I agree it's mostly pointless to argue one way or another what Linux would be in a hypothetical timeline in which Linus was less rude/brash. But it seems ironic to bring up Jobs as a counter-example, because he most definitely was known to be an asshole who said and did things far more reprehensible than what Linus has been accused of. But Jobs has no shortage of first-hand witnesses who testify that his force of personality (e.g. the reality distortion field) was pivotal to Apple's success. I'm a Church of Woz worshipper myself, but it seems clear he would not have (reluctantly) agreed to quit his anonymous HP engineering job to join Apple, had Jobs not literally thrown a crying tantrum (and IIRC from one of his biographers, he did this in Woz's own home).

Mononokay 8y ago

He could, and still can. Literally nothing's stopping him other than a personal decision to subjectively improve his behavior. You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right.

smsm42 8y ago
You can, but you shouldn't.
danso 8y ago
> You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right. What is the basis for this "might makes right" axiom when it comes to collaboration? I mean, obviously, anyone -- winners and losers -- can choose to be rude and insulting for any reason they'd like, they aren't barred by law or regulation. What tangential or moral benefits do you believe come from adopting a "winner has the right to be rude" mentality, particularly in an open source community? I think it's almost self-evident what the drawbacks are -- for example, that the risk of humiliation might stifle people's willingness to debate at all -- so what are the upsides to fostering that kind of environment?

wolfgke 8y ago

> Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts It is not the trueness or falseness of that myth that has changed, but the mainstream in the society.

unimpressive 8y ago

I'm mostly parsing this as external pressure forcing him to change, rather than a comment on the value of the behavior one way or the other. I suspect on net this is going to be seen as martyrdom, with a vocal minority of people who will bring it up in every conversation as a suppression tactic. EDIT: That having been said, my personal opinion is that Linus could stand to tone it down a bit. He often goes beyond "unrelentingly firm on quality" and into "personal attack", the line between them can be subtle but hopefully he'll figure it out without becoming a pushover.

1000units 8y ago
That's my impression as well. He definitely seems to be mocking whoever told him "look yourself in the mirror" at least.
noobermin 8y ago
Of course, no one is suggesting he become a pushover. I don't think it's really that hard to not be a weakling and at the same time not be a douche. It's not a "gray line" either, unless the extremes are either 31 Kelvin and 1000 KeV.

anothergoogler 8y ago

It's not a myth, and Linux is an unmitigated success to this point. Torvalds' admission is a reminder that, for all but the most callous, it's not sustainable way to behave. It catches up with your conscience. It took almost 30 years for it to catch up with Torvalds'.

HaoZeke 8y ago

That's not a myth. Moreover, people here seem to simply rejoicing.

jlebar 8y ago

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts Yeah, reading the comments here, I'm not so hopeful.

losvedir 8y ago

It certainly will if Linux kernel development continues successfully. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case, but you can't really use this to end the myth just yet.

agentultra 8y ago

As my partner once put it, “you can be right or you can have friends.” The truth is you can have both but if you put such a high importance on being right, all the time, then you’ll drive most people away.

rplst8 8y ago
I don't code to make friends. I code to survive.
joesb 8y ago
You don't have to be rude to be right.

djsumdog 8y ago

The "Dr. House" or "Rich Sanchez" effect?