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Ask a Knifemaker: The Truth About Damascus Steel
- vvanders 8y agoFor the pocket knife aficionados out there, if your ever in Portland higly reccomend taking a tour of Benchmade's factory. They've got a ton of history about the company and you get a chance to view the factory floor(industrial laser cutters!) where all their knives are made.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoMy day job is driving a 4kW fibre laser for cutting steel. AMA ;) Recently a couple of people have had me cut knives from old circular saw blades from timber mills. It's a fairly hard wearing steel, and they got the old blades for free. Just hobby knives, I think they do it mostly for the enjoyment of making their own knives, well fitting and shaping the handle, sharpening it. You'd still be able to say "I made that" to a much greater extend than a store bought one.
- vvanders 8y agoThat's pretty cool, I'm assuming it runs from 240 or is it something beefier? Their factory is pretty neat, it's much smaller than I would have expected given their volume. Happy to support a company that does all it's work in the US even if the prices are higher. One of the thing that was interesting from the factory tour was that they were really just a high precision (at the time in the 80s) machine shop. Most of their work is pairing with an existing designer(Osbourne, Pardue, Williams, etc). It's an interesting business model compared to some of the other manufacturers out there.
- volkl48 8y agoNot the OP, but the "standard" electrical connection in a metal shop is usually 480v 3-phase, most tools are going to use that.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoYep, this is correct, 3 phase.
- stephengillie 8y agoEver use a Lockformer Vulcan? It makes great air ducts, and probably good knives too.
- stephengillie 8y agoPortland, Oregon - not the Maine-stay" of the majority of Ame"ricans.
- kingkingking 8y agoThis is one of the best test comments ever. Its bigly.
- whitedeveloper 8y agoThis is one of the best test comments ever. Its bigly.
- claydavisss 8y agoDamascus steel requires much more time to hone. It holds an edge longer, but I'm not sure it is worth the frustration involved in getting an edge. My favorite straight razors are my vintage ones, mostly because the steel is of lower quality....they take an edge real fast! Damascus steel also makes products very expensive. I tend to lose straight razors and pocket knives, so it doesn't make sense to make such a large investment. The investment will extend to honing stones....you'll probably want a Belgian Coticule which run $100+. Damascus steel looks super cool though. If I was a superstar sushi chef, I'd want Damasteel just for the brag points.
- Blackthorn 8y ago> Damascus steel requires much more time to hone. It holds an edge longer, but I'm not sure it is worth the frustration involved in getting an edge. I don't think there is any truth to this. It's one of the myths listed here, and goes into detail: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/07/30/five-myths-about-damascus-steel/ https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/07/30/five-myths-about-dama...
- abakker 8y agoYour experience is not wrong, but the cause you attribute it to is. Damascus steels are made out of modern steels. Modern steels tend to contain molybdenum, vanadium, chromium, tungsten, etc. when they are heat treated, some of those elements above form carbides in the steel. When you try to cut those carbides with a stone, you don’t. You need diamond stones to sharpen high carbide steel. Without that, the carbide scores the water stone and the stone erodes the steel around the carbide inclusions. Essentially making the edge lumpy. In old steels -1077, 1084, and 1095, there are few carbides that aren’t iron-based. This makes sharpening much much easier, and also makes edges dull much faster. In a straight razor, I (like you) would rather optimize for easy sharpening/honing, but, for other purposes, more modern steels perform better.
- hprotagonist 8y agopattern welding is, effectively, a solution to a problem we don't have any more. When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to mix it up so that the overall properties of the resulting object were predictable. This evolved into a more sophisticated technique that gave you not only predictability but differential properties (harder steel at the edge, more ductile in the spine) and a pretty visual result. The batch variability problem isn't a problem any more, and we can get differential properties with very precise heat treatments now, so all that's left is the pretty visual result. So, if it appeals to you; great! Just don't think you're getting anything that's super magical above and beyond what a modern alloy can do.
- abakker 8y agoI’m not sure that is fully true - the authority on this that I think has proven out his trustworthiness in the knifemaking community, Kevin Cashen, makes a compelling argument that with correct heat treatment, pattern welding gives you the ability to mix alloys. He frequently uses an O1/L6 blend. I am not saying that most of it isn’t cosmetic - that is certaninly the point most of the time, but, for boutique knife makers, it can give you more options if what you want is not available in a commercially made alloy. Keep in mind that most commercial steels are not the “best possible” for knives, but frequently the best balance of performance, and manufacturability (I.e. they avoid very complicated heat treats, and very expensive hard grinding with lots of embedded carbides).
- n1000 8y agoTo my understanding Damascus was indeed not needed anymore as sword fighting came out of fashion. For swords it was very useful to have flexible yet sharp blades. Or has Damascus steel been traditionally used for knives too?
- colechristensen 8y agoThe idea is that Damascus steel was a technology from before there was much metallurgy knowledge. These days we have a molecular knowledge of steel and can control and test the microstructure at that scale. If you really want the best knife you look to metallurgists not artisans. Whatever you could do with Damascus steel you could do better with modern alloys and science. There's nothing wrong with the old ways, but there is a lot of magical thinking about knives and swords that doesn't have much basis in reality. Buying in to the mythology can be fun as long as you don't get too attached to the myth and start confusing it with actual utility. In other words, nobody owns a Rolex because they think it'll do a better job at letting them know the time.
- witcher 8y agoShort reminder, that you can use Damascus steel.. everywhere and it looks really awesome. That's why I have some on my wedding ring... ^^
- sergiotapia 8y ago>Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. >For instance Devin Thomas is a master Damascus steel maker. He forges every billet himself and has the process down to a science. So which one is it?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- lukev 8y agoThe ancient techniques have been lost, but it's spitting against the wind to try and refer to "modern" Damascus by a different name.
- grzm 8y agoThe article makes clear that the modern usage is a misnomer in that the process is not the same. That said, given that the term is currently widely used for modern knives, it's needlessly pedantic to insist that one not call the modern knives Damascus steel. > "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades have been called “Damascus knives”."
- testvox 8y agoJust because one technique has been lost doesn't mean there are no others.
- dmourati 8y agoKnife community is pretty tight and also pretty accessible. I've exchanged emails with Devin Thomas and I'm a relative newbie. I think of damascus as an aesthetic element first. Some people really like it, others find it too flashy.
- deedubaya 8y agoMy favorite knife is a Northman crafted hunting knife. It’s beautiful, imperfect, and holds an edge really well. https://youtu.be/J3nojb-gFH4 https://youtu.be/J3nojb-gFH4
- gerdesj 8y agoDemascene.
- stan_rogers 8y agoThat, too, is an ambiguous term, since damascene and damascening can refer to ground, engraved or machined surface patterning (such as in watchmaking or "engine turned" panels).
- Blackthorn 8y ago> Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It certainly isn't lost. edit: video here if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8
- frostburg 8y agoNobody knows if the modern approach is the same, even if using historically appropriate tools and materials.
- irrational 8y agoBut if the result is indistinguishable from old examples, does it matter if the approach is different?
- dmix 8y agoNo, but that doesn't make the phrase "the technique has been lost for centuries" any less true. Which is what the OP is questioning.
- pdpi 8y agoThe discussion is whether the _technique_ is lost, not whether we can reproduce the results. So... yes, it does matter. It is, in fact, the crux of the matter.
- stephengillie 8y agoIf we can map all possible ways of making the material, surely one of them must be the ancient technique.
- jmcgough 8y agoSure, but we'd still never know which way in particular was used, so it's "lost" in the sense that we can't know what it was to replicate it exactly.
- 21 8y ago> When it comes down to it, most of today’s super exotic alloys will outperform any pattern-welded steel ... A well-made Damascus blade will stay sharp for longer than most production quality knives, but if you’re looking for the ends-of-the-earth best performing blade steel, look elsewhere Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?
- phonon 8y agohttp://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/ http://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/
- pdpi 8y agoPersonally, I don't see the value in going for something super-exotic. It's not exactly the fanciest exotic alloy knife in the world, but my Global G-2 is an amazing workhorse of a knife. I've owned the knife for 8 years, and, while I take good care of it, I've never babied it — it's still in impeccable condition and remarkably sharp (I've never gotten around to resharpening it).
- mbubb 8y agothis is a knife maker I follow - nice Damascus blades http://www.bloodrootblades.com/chef-2/ http://www.bloodrootblades.com/chef-2/
- abakker 8y agoA go-to for non-stainless that many people get excellent performance from is 52100 - which is ball bearing steel. Not a “super steel” but very high performance when given a good treatment (I.e. from a maker that understands how to treat it in a knife making context) CPM154 and S30V are pretty special steels. Nearly impossible to home-heat treat without a lot of equipment, (molten salts pots, cryogenic equipment). When done right, though, they sure perform.
- int_19h 8y agoSome examples would be CPM S30V, S35VN, S90V, and S110V; CPM 3V, 9V, 10V, 15V; A2, D2, O1 and S7; VG-10. Some of these are arguably "more Damascus than Damascus", in a sense that they're also mixes, but on a much finer level. For example, S30V - a relatively affordable "super steel" - is one of those known as "powder steels" due to the way they're made, achieving extreme uniformity and purity of the alloy even at microscopic level: https://www.knifeart.com/particlesteel.html https://www.knifeart.com/particlesteel.html This lets knife makers create alloys that are outright impossible using traditional methods (because they wouldn't be able to make them uniform enough). It also means that they can formulate an alloy precisely to match the desired qualities, instead of approximating it by mixing steels in layers as Damascus does. The kind of stuff we can do with modern technology and modern materials would be considered genuine magic back in the days where the quality of those blades was a life-or-death matter. It's kinda ironic that these days, we use it for EDC knives to avoid sharpening them more often than we'd like. Here's a good example of how a modern knife made from one of the highest-end steels performs (scroll down to the "Performance" section): http://knifeinformer.com/spyderco-military-s110v-review/ http://knifeinformer.com/spyderco-military-s110v-review/
- loopycode 8y agoAren't Damascus blades originally an Indian invention?
- _emacsomancer_ 8y agoThe 'wootz' style Damascus is; Europeans didn't know it originally came from Southern India because it came through traders in Damascus. The 'pattern-welded' Damascus is known from Europe (maybe as an attempt to replicate the 'wootz' style Damascus?) But it exists elsewhere as well.
- dingoegret 8y agoNo the steel material was dug up in India, but it was Middle Eastern blacksmiths that made it what it was.
- efremjw 8y agoIs it possible to make corrosion resistant stainless in the Damascus style...or will the dissimilar materials cause galvanic corrosion or the spaces between the different alloys result in crevice corrosion?
- grzm 8y agoThe article explicitly mentions an all-stainless Damascus steel formulation: > "Devin makes all-stainless Damascus steel, high contrast, double high carbon, and many, many exotic patterns."
- efremjw 8y agoRight, but even raw pure stainless of let's say 304 or 316 will rust in naked form due to the small crevices left on the surface straight from the mill...if multiple dissimilar layers of stainless or folded, it seems to me that stainless Damascus will be very vulnerable to rusting... unless there is something in the chemistry between the individual layers that mitigates this, no?
- mmaunder 8y agoI chuckle when in film they describe a blade as folded over 200 times. 2^200 is a lot. And anything more than a few folds gives you mush.
- gesman 8y agoJust FYI: Absolute hardest material for knife blades is ZrO2 (Zirconium dioxide == Ceramic). It also the most brittle, but never rusts and holds sharpness for insane amount of time.
- somberi 8y agoKycoera is one popular brand. But off late it seems like ceramic knives have hit upon some production efficiency, and there are many brands to choose from. They do blunt, say after 6 months of use. Kyocera for one, provides a free sharpening service if you mail their knives in. Ceramic blade gets sharpened on diamond wheels, and they have to be mailed in.
- gesman 8y agoI own Kyocera kitchen knife as well as some made-in-china ceramic folder. Both are performing really well. If I'd buy Chinese made steel knife - it probably would get dull after cutting 3 sandwiches or so. Ceramic knife apparently performing extremely well and remains sharp as expected. Also - i saw there are ceramic knife sharpeners available - so i plan to get one sometime.
- legohead 8y agoThis guy explains it better I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSGL4Ns2qw
- justicezyx 8y agoWalter is one strange person on Youtube, simply just for forging knives. Not a bit of showing off his history, he actually is a writer...
- ummonk 8y agoThis post is blatantly wrong. Wootz steel (sourced from India but known in the West as Damascus steel because that was where a lot of the blades were made) was not pattern welded / folded. Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz steel.
- grzm 8y agoThe article makes exactly this point: > "First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel” is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. Anyone claiming to be making authentic Wootz/Damascus these days is delusional. Or lying . . ." ... > "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades have been called “Damascus knives”."
- ummonk 8y ago> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. That's simply wrong. It wasn't pattern-welded. It appeared similar to pattern-welded steel, but was manufactured without any pattern-welding.
- grzm 8y agoI read the "pattern-welded steel" as a reference to the current method: the sentence you quote explicitly says the original method is lost: in other words, unknown.
- 8y ago
- learc83 8y agoI just watched a recent documentary on an attempt to recreate Wootz steel. Worth checking out if you're interested in the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4
- dmix 8y agoAl Pendray in the documentary also wrote a book about Wootz and explained why he believes the technique was 'lost to history': > The smiths that produced the high-quality blades would most likely have kept the process for making these blades a closely guarded secret to be passed on only to their apprentices. The smiths would be able to teach the apprentices the second and third points listed, but point one is something they would not have known. There is no difference in physical appearance between an ingot with the proper minor elements present and one without. Suppose that during several generations all of the ingots from India were coming from an ore body with the proper amount of minor elements present, and blades with good patterns were being produced. Then, after a few centuries, the ore source may have been exhausted or become inaccessible to the smithing community; therefore, the technique no longer worked. With time, the smiths who knew about the technique died out without passing it on to their apprentices (since it no longer worked), so even if a similar source was later found, the knowledge was no longer around to exploit it. The possible validity of this theory could be examined if data were available on the level of carbide-forming elements in the various ore deposits in India used to produce wootz steel. http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2017/06/knifemaking-legend-al-pendray-father-of-modern-wootz-has-passed/ http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2017/06/knifemaking-legen...
- CaliforniaKarl 8y agoAlso possibly of interest: NHK World's _Japanology Plus_ episode "Bladed Tools": https://youtu.be/afQgQ5gLYO8 https://youtu.be/afQgQ5gLYO8
- pandeya 8y agoSo sad to see an article written about Damascus steel origin without the origin being mentioned. The origin of Damascus steel was India where it was called Ukku. Wootz is derived from Ukku.
- dingoegret 8y agoSo sad to see an article written about Nuclear energy origin without the origin being mentioned. The origin of Nuclear energy was Zimbabwe mines where it was called Uranium. European physicists get all the credit.
- Caillebotte 8y agoBack in my high school days, I made a beautiful damascus blade from 5160 leaf springs and 1095. After having worked in the labs at https://www.scotforge.com/ https://www.scotforge.com/, it is apparent damascus has very little large scale use due to weak tensile strengths(which of course depends on the forging process). However, in personal, small scale use, I've noticed my damascus blade has withstood much more than say, a pure 1095 blade could endure. Essentially, the higher the carbon the more brittle the blade despite the heat treatment process. Damascus in a small blade seemed to yield properties of each steel involved without using a costly alloy. It is very difficult to combine high carbon steels with stainless steels due to the large difference in heat treatment processes, as stainless steels are very often air hardened, and carbon steels are hardened in a brine or oil solution.
- dingoegret 8y agoSad to see the Middle Eastern developed techniques for forging raw materials dug up in Pakistan into Damascus steel be lost to history.