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While it is interesting to read more of the root cause, the tone of this article is surprisingly pro-Apple to my ears. No, they didn't delete his movies, but th

While it is interesting to read more of the root cause, the tone of this article is surprisingly pro-Apple to my ears. No, they didn't delete his movies, but they did introduce a technical limitation to prevent him from accessing content that they told him he was buying because of details of media licencing. This isn't something a reasonable member of the public would expect, and the UX and customer service paths he experienced did not help him understand or try to make him whole, they dismissed his concerns.

BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
It's not something an uninformed person would reasonably expect, but neither is it Apple's fault that corporate copyright holders insist on Byzantine region-locking (to protect possible per-region licensee differences, maybe?) If the fellow owns any movies on blu-ray or DVD and buys a new player, he'll be delighted to discover that those are also hosed.
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  Apple has taken full responsibility for this by acting as the seller of a product. If I sell you a washing machine and it breaks for whatever reason under statutory warranty, I am responsible. No hiding behind “yeah but the producer wants to make more money off you so it’s not really my fault.” You take responsibility for what you sell in B2C. If you’re not happy, take it up with your suppliers. Or the law. Or Santa Claus for all I care. This is a vital part of our market rules. Otherwise people would never stop pointing fingers. (I want to add: it’s also true morally. Even if this is not strictly legally their responsibility, moral responsibility is assumed all the same. This is why we blame apple; they can’t have their cake and eat it too. There was this cartoon of a villain who copied the power of every hero he met. When he met Superman it all seemed lost; surely noone could defeat him now? In the world’s hour of truth, the Batman approaches with kryptonite, and he buckles. “He could not copy our strengths without copying our weaknesses.” So it is with Apple and Hollywood.)
  - neom 8y ago
    By that logic, if I buy a DVD at the checkout of Marks & Spencer on my summer holidays before returning to the states, I get to the US to find out it won't work in the DVD player here, should I be annoyed at Marks & Spencer for not posting a sign that explains media regions?
    - FabHK 8y ago
      Not only that, by GP's logic Marks & Spencers would somehow be obliged to get you a US region coded DVD of that movie (whether the actual rights holder ever released it or not!). To be clear: I absolutely hate the ridiculous licensing policies of the movie studios, but they're clearly not Marks & Spencer's fault, or Apple's, for that matter.
      - sanderjd 8y ago
        It is Marks & Spencers responsibility, even if there's nothing they could have done differently. You're their customer. In this scenario, when the DVD they sold you didn't work the way you wanted it to, they are the ones you should complain to, and they should give you a refund.
        pas 8y ago
        Yes, it's their responsibility. And that's why they put a media region lock sticker on the box of the DVD. (And usually it's also printed on the labeled side of the disk.) Legally, Marks & Spencer must put this restriction into their contract with the customer. And of course these are sometimes implied contracts. Very much based on jurisdiction, case law, etc.
        sanderjd 8y ago
        I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about what customers should expect from merchants. Even if there's some fine print somewhere that says otherwise, I expect the thing I bought from a merchant to work for me, and if it doesn't, I expect my money back. If neither of these things happens, I'll no longer be a customer of that merchant.
- Nullabillity 8y ago
  > Apple's fault that corporate copyright holders insist on Byzantine region-locking Yes, it is their fault that they tolerate the behaviour on their storefront.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheTrotters 8y ago
    What else are they supposed to do?
    - dredmorbius 8y ago
      Refuse to play.
    - jakobegger 8y ago
      Show a big fat dialog before changing your region: "After changing your payment method to a different country you will no longer be able to download the following movies: .... Would you like to download them before switching?"
      - jsjohnst 8y ago
        > Show a big fat dialog They do show a warning. Not exactly what you describe, but it’s there in essence.
        TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        They provide a vague warning that something might happen. They should warn you specifically what will actually happen.
        jsjohnst 8y ago
        > They should warn you specifically what will actually happen. Should they do a better job? You betcha! But I don’t think it’s possible to tell you exactly what will happen in a good UX. One major reason is because distribution rights change all the time, today you might not lose streaming switching from country X to Y, but after switching today, you might lose streaming rights tomorrow.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- watwut 8y ago
  It is apple (and any other store) fault that limitation is not clearly stated up front. They play along and keep calling it "buy". Stores keep using slightly misleading words, because people are more likely to buy then if they used slightly more accurate wording. Then we blame users for acting based on what they were told.
  - JimDabell 8y ago
    > They play along and keep calling it "buy". This wasn't remotely deleted from his devices. What happened here was that he (reasonably) expected to be able to download another copy from Apple, and found out he couldn't. "Buy" doesn't mean "host it for me online forever". It was reasonable for him to expect to be able to do this, but it's not unreasonable for Apple to use the word "buy".
    - dustyleary 8y ago
      > "Buy" doesn't mean "host it for me online forever". Yes, it does! That is precisely the problem. My grandmother was born in 1939. Apple tells her that she can "buy" her copy of the Andrews Sisters Greatest Hits, and after she "buys" it she can play it on her iPhone whenever she wants. If Apple was truthful and said, "you can sort of rent a copy of this album, unless someone you never meet makes a decision you'll never hear about, and then it might disappear. Oh, and also, you're really rolling the dice if you travel to another country," then they wouldn't have gotten my grandmother's money. Apple is taking advantage of misleading language, telling my grandmother she can "buy" this music, when for the first 70 years of her life "buy" meant "it's yours forever unless you decide to get rid of it". When you "buy" your music from Apple, you don't choose where to download your single copy of it, make sure you have storage, and back it up to tape for safe-keeping. Apple explicitly tells you that you can "buy" your music and "it's stored in the cloud (ooohh aaaahh it's magic). Instantly available on all your devices." Yes, I understand that this abuse is industry-wide. That doesn't make it right. If they had tried this shit 40 years ago they'd have been on the losing end of several lawsuits. Trying to tell my 80 year old grandmother, "Ackshually, you didn't buy this music, you bought a license to this music, and we decided to revoke it because reasons. Would you like to buy the 2018 remastered edition and hope that we don't decide to do this again?" should make them liable for bait-and-switch and truth-in-advertising lawsuits. I didn't expect my argument to take this turn, but I think this is a good example for why 80 year olds vote for Trump. Our "greed is good" hyper-capitalist society has practically weaponized taking advantage of people. They don't really understand what's going on, but they do understand that they're getting screwed, and they're angry about it, so they follow the people on TV who seem to be as angry as they are.
- Asooka 8y ago
  It's a fault in their UI and UX design. They could say e.g. "The Australian version of movie X is not available to download in your current region (Canada) due to licensing limitations. You may still download your purchase from within the Australia region."
  - user3359 8y ago
    I 90% agree with this. The other 10% realizes that if you had warnings and waivers for every fringe case, you'd have the worst UI in the world and had a worse UX for 99.9% of the people it didn't apply to. Do you want them to disclose it won't work in Taiwan? Timbuktu? That you'd have to agree to GDPR if you went to Europe? How about warnings that this format may not be viewable in 20 years due to technical or regulatory shifts? I sympathize with the original person's situation, but as a consumer of media that's frequently geo-locked (I'm from Canada), I blame copyright holders for the situation. And frankly, it's garbage like this that turns people to pirated media.
    - andrewaylett 8y ago
      It's definitely dealing in edge-cases, and I think there's a middle-ground where you make sure people are aware of the edge-case conditions they're approaching, without necessarily irritating people to whom they don't apply. So on the one hand, making it clear what the region you're buying into actually is would be really nice, and on the other hand (as suggested) making it clear when you've crossed into an edge case and there are things in you're account that you're about to lose access to, or that you might expect to see but can't, would make resolving this kind of issue much easier. And wouldn't bother the 99% of people who haven't switched their account region after "buying" something.
- nescoiquid 8y ago
  > It's not something an uninformed person would reasonably expect Nor is it something an informed person should tolerate.
- paranoidrobot 8y ago
  Apple hold some responsibility here. Remember back when almost no labels would sell Music digitally, and kept blaming piracy on kids? Apple had enough leverage then to force many labels into agreements. They definitely have enough leverage today to force global licensing of movies sold through their store.
dredmorbius 8y ago
It's probably worth noting that. CNET is part of CBS Interactive (CBS Corporation), and very much has a stableful of horses in this race. A conflict of interest not noted in the article.
Crontab 8y ago
Apple needs to do a better job at explaining this issue. I know several people who buy from the iTunes Store and assume that their purchases will forever be available for them to download. Apple should probably give people the option of backing up their purchases to their iCloud account. It would increase the usefulness of iCloud.

BurritoAlPastor 8y ago

It's not something an uninformed person would reasonably expect, but neither is it Apple's fault that corporate copyright holders insist on Byzantine region-locking (to protect possible per-region licensee differences, maybe?) If the fellow owns any movies on blu-ray or DVD and buys a new player, he'll be delighted to discover that those are also hosed.

nothrabannosir 8y ago
Apple has taken full responsibility for this by acting as the seller of a product. If I sell you a washing machine and it breaks for whatever reason under statutory warranty, I am responsible. No hiding behind “yeah but the producer wants to make more money off you so it’s not really my fault.” You take responsibility for what you sell in B2C. If you’re not happy, take it up with your suppliers. Or the law. Or Santa Claus for all I care. This is a vital part of our market rules. Otherwise people would never stop pointing fingers. (I want to add: it’s also true morally. Even if this is not strictly legally their responsibility, moral responsibility is assumed all the same. This is why we blame apple; they can’t have their cake and eat it too. There was this cartoon of a villain who copied the power of every hero he met. When he met Superman it all seemed lost; surely noone could defeat him now? In the world’s hour of truth, the Batman approaches with kryptonite, and he buckles. “He could not copy our strengths without copying our weaknesses.” So it is with Apple and Hollywood.)
- neom 8y ago
  By that logic, if I buy a DVD at the checkout of Marks & Spencer on my summer holidays before returning to the states, I get to the US to find out it won't work in the DVD player here, should I be annoyed at Marks & Spencer for not posting a sign that explains media regions?
  - FabHK 8y ago
    Not only that, by GP's logic Marks & Spencers would somehow be obliged to get you a US region coded DVD of that movie (whether the actual rights holder ever released it or not!). To be clear: I absolutely hate the ridiculous licensing policies of the movie studios, but they're clearly not Marks & Spencer's fault, or Apple's, for that matter.
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      It is Marks & Spencers responsibility, even if there's nothing they could have done differently. You're their customer. In this scenario, when the DVD they sold you didn't work the way you wanted it to, they are the ones you should complain to, and they should give you a refund.
      - pas 8y ago
        Yes, it's their responsibility. And that's why they put a media region lock sticker on the box of the DVD. (And usually it's also printed on the labeled side of the disk.) Legally, Marks & Spencer must put this restriction into their contract with the customer. And of course these are sometimes implied contracts. Very much based on jurisdiction, case law, etc.
        sanderjd 8y ago
        I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about what customers should expect from merchants. Even if there's some fine print somewhere that says otherwise, I expect the thing I bought from a merchant to work for me, and if it doesn't, I expect my money back. If neither of these things happens, I'll no longer be a customer of that merchant.
Nullabillity 8y ago
> Apple's fault that corporate copyright holders insist on Byzantine region-locking Yes, it is their fault that they tolerate the behaviour on their storefront.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- TheTrotters 8y ago
  What else are they supposed to do?
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    Refuse to play.
  - jakobegger 8y ago
    Show a big fat dialog before changing your region: "After changing your payment method to a different country you will no longer be able to download the following movies: .... Would you like to download them before switching?"
    - jsjohnst 8y ago
      > Show a big fat dialog They do show a warning. Not exactly what you describe, but it’s there in essence.
      - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        They provide a vague warning that something might happen. They should warn you specifically what will actually happen.
        jsjohnst 8y ago
        > They should warn you specifically what will actually happen. Should they do a better job? You betcha! But I don’t think it’s possible to tell you exactly what will happen in a good UX. One major reason is because distribution rights change all the time, today you might not lose streaming switching from country X to Y, but after switching today, you might lose streaming rights tomorrow.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
watwut 8y ago
It is apple (and any other store) fault that limitation is not clearly stated up front. They play along and keep calling it "buy". Stores keep using slightly misleading words, because people are more likely to buy then if they used slightly more accurate wording. Then we blame users for acting based on what they were told.
- JimDabell 8y ago
  > They play along and keep calling it "buy". This wasn't remotely deleted from his devices. What happened here was that he (reasonably) expected to be able to download another copy from Apple, and found out he couldn't. "Buy" doesn't mean "host it for me online forever". It was reasonable for him to expect to be able to do this, but it's not unreasonable for Apple to use the word "buy".
  - dustyleary 8y ago
    > "Buy" doesn't mean "host it for me online forever". Yes, it does! That is precisely the problem. My grandmother was born in 1939. Apple tells her that she can "buy" her copy of the Andrews Sisters Greatest Hits, and after she "buys" it she can play it on her iPhone whenever she wants. If Apple was truthful and said, "you can sort of rent a copy of this album, unless someone you never meet makes a decision you'll never hear about, and then it might disappear. Oh, and also, you're really rolling the dice if you travel to another country," then they wouldn't have gotten my grandmother's money. Apple is taking advantage of misleading language, telling my grandmother she can "buy" this music, when for the first 70 years of her life "buy" meant "it's yours forever unless you decide to get rid of it". When you "buy" your music from Apple, you don't choose where to download your single copy of it, make sure you have storage, and back it up to tape for safe-keeping. Apple explicitly tells you that you can "buy" your music and "it's stored in the cloud (ooohh aaaahh it's magic). Instantly available on all your devices." Yes, I understand that this abuse is industry-wide. That doesn't make it right. If they had tried this shit 40 years ago they'd have been on the losing end of several lawsuits. Trying to tell my 80 year old grandmother, "Ackshually, you didn't buy this music, you bought a license to this music, and we decided to revoke it because reasons. Would you like to buy the 2018 remastered edition and hope that we don't decide to do this again?" should make them liable for bait-and-switch and truth-in-advertising lawsuits. I didn't expect my argument to take this turn, but I think this is a good example for why 80 year olds vote for Trump. Our "greed is good" hyper-capitalist society has practically weaponized taking advantage of people. They don't really understand what's going on, but they do understand that they're getting screwed, and they're angry about it, so they follow the people on TV who seem to be as angry as they are.
Asooka 8y ago
It's a fault in their UI and UX design. They could say e.g. "The Australian version of movie X is not available to download in your current region (Canada) due to licensing limitations. You may still download your purchase from within the Australia region."
- user3359 8y ago
  I 90% agree with this. The other 10% realizes that if you had warnings and waivers for every fringe case, you'd have the worst UI in the world and had a worse UX for 99.9% of the people it didn't apply to. Do you want them to disclose it won't work in Taiwan? Timbuktu? That you'd have to agree to GDPR if you went to Europe? How about warnings that this format may not be viewable in 20 years due to technical or regulatory shifts? I sympathize with the original person's situation, but as a consumer of media that's frequently geo-locked (I'm from Canada), I blame copyright holders for the situation. And frankly, it's garbage like this that turns people to pirated media.
  - andrewaylett 8y ago
    It's definitely dealing in edge-cases, and I think there's a middle-ground where you make sure people are aware of the edge-case conditions they're approaching, without necessarily irritating people to whom they don't apply. So on the one hand, making it clear what the region you're buying into actually is would be really nice, and on the other hand (as suggested) making it clear when you've crossed into an edge case and there are things in you're account that you're about to lose access to, or that you might expect to see but can't, would make resolving this kind of issue much easier. And wouldn't bother the 99% of people who haven't switched their account region after "buying" something.
nescoiquid 8y ago
> It's not something an uninformed person would reasonably expect Nor is it something an informed person should tolerate.
paranoidrobot 8y ago
Apple hold some responsibility here. Remember back when almost no labels would sell Music digitally, and kept blaming piracy on kids? Apple had enough leverage then to force many labels into agreements. They definitely have enough leverage today to force global licensing of movies sold through their store.

dredmorbius 8y ago

It's probably worth noting that. CNET is part of CBS Interactive (CBS Corporation), and very much has a stableful of horses in this race. A conflict of interest not noted in the article.

Crontab 8y ago

Apple needs to do a better job at explaining this issue. I know several people who buy from the iTunes Store and assume that their purchases will forever be available for them to download. Apple should probably give people the option of backing up their purchases to their iCloud account. It would increase the usefulness of iCloud.