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I teach coding and robotics to kids age 10 - 14. I'm constantly having to tell them to fill in the birthdate field accurately when signing up for things like S

by patja 8y ago

I teach coding and robotics to kids age 10 - 14. I'm constantly having to tell them to fill in the birthdate field accurately when signing up for things like Scratch or TinkerCAD because I know it triggers a different account creation path that complies with COPPA. After half the class says "but my parents tell me to just lie about my age so I can use free stuff online" I end up having to have a whole conversation with the class about COPPA, and more to the point, the question "Is it OK to misrepresent yourself to someone else in order to get them to give you something they otherwise would not" and the slippery slope of little white lies, and when is it OK to lie. It's a good conversation but always eye opening to see what is taught at home. Of course many of these 10 - 12 year olds are also playing GTA V and other MA games with their parents' permission.

fzeroracer 8y ago
To be honest, I would probably be the person telling kids to never share accurate information about yourself online. Granted this is bad advice if you're convincing kids to not play mature games (which should be a whole separate conversation in itself) but I think there's a huge looming issue with online presence. There's a lot of kids leaving a huge amount of information about them online because of the internet storing almost everything they do. They link every account or every detail to themselves in real life, making it easy for people and companies to gather a ton of free data. Some of which might be dangerous to their future careers.
- whoopdedo 8y ago
  Which is why I feel telling kids not to share things online is like abstinence-only sex ed. As an adult, you have the wisdom and self-restraint to practice abstinence. Teenagers have neither of those. But they do have brains and bodies that put them at risk for STDs or pregnancy. It's foolish to make them take a gamble that their physiology has stacked the deck against them. Socializing with your peers is as natural as sex. We grew up where online communication was either non-existent or niche enough that we don't feel it's necessary for socialization. But teenagers today have been exposed to the internet since birth. To them not participating in social networks is as absurd as being constantly online is uncomfortable to the older generation. Or it's like telling a teenager to ignore their sexual desire. It's not going to happen. So teaching kids how to be safe online while still participating is the practical thing to do. And it's important to give them tools and knowledge that makes it possible for them succeed in protecting themselves. When I think about it that way, I question my own standing in the privacy debate. I often point out how older people seem out-of-touch with how technology works. Well I don't participate in a lot of social platforms. Why should I be listened to about what is appropriate for those companies? I can say what I want for myself, but that isn't necessarily helpful for people who have a different lifestyle than I do. Does being too severe an advocate for privacy, and demonizing social media companies make me like to the old church lady saying that giving out condoms in school is evil?
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    I don't think that is a quite accurate comparison. Telling kids to not share things online and telling them to minimize details that identify them are two quite different things. The closest analog to your abstinence comparison would be telling them to outright avoid or refuse to use social media. The easiest way to explain to them how to properly be safe online is to ask them 'what would your parents or teachers find if they looked up your username? if they started googling details about you?'. They may not care what their friends might find, but when you rope in family and teachers finding more personal details that is a great way to get them more invested in maintaining their privacy.
lovich 8y ago
Why would you teach children to help companies harvest their data by accurately filling in forms for them? If they we're all just innocent checks to see if they should be offered a product or not I could see your argument. Companies however, have weaponized personal data and once given away it can't come back. They should be adding noise to any data they have to give up just to help mask themselves in the digital world.
- DanBC 8y ago
  COPPA means companies are severely limited to the information they can gather on children. When a child fills out a form with a fake, older, age it increasesthe amount of data that canbe collected about that child.
  - lovich 8y ago
    Even if you believed that companies were following the law, which I do not, then you still have to contend with the fact that most software shops are run in such a slipshod manner that you virtually garunteed to have your data stolen when that company is hacked
    - JeremyNT 8y ago
      It would seem that the optimal solution is to lie about your age, while still using an age low enough to trigger those legal protections. The best of both worlds...
  - itronitron 8y ago
    so just put in a fake younger age
  - koolba 8y ago
    That’s why they should lie with the information of a different child. So little Alice, age 12, born in July, becomes little Bobby, age 11, born in October.
    - 8y ago
Symbiote 8y ago
The correct approach is surely to give a fake, child's date of birth. 1 January 2008, for example.
slavik81 8y ago
Children learn to lie about their age because they are discriminated against when they tell the truth. It's an entirely rational response to a system that rewards their honesty by treating them as a second-class citizen.
xfitm3 8y ago
What happens to their data after they're 13? IMO the best strategy is to nullify the value of the information companies collect, and yes, that means to lie. Simple Demographics Often Identify People Uniquely https://dataprivacylab.org/projects/identifiability/paper1.pdf https://dataprivacylab.org/projects/identifiability/paper1.p...
- rapnie 8y ago
  Absolutely minimizing the data and details you leave behind is very good advice. But I wonder how long - with state-of-the-art aggregation and correlation techniques - lying will be an effective strategy. You can say you are Peter, but if you at the same time accidentally and regularly give your position away from an address that only has an Anna living there (together with other Anna-specific data) you will be found out soon enough. And you also run the risk of an algorithm marking you as unreliable or prone to lying (and other misunderstandings about you).
jatkins 8y ago
It's very irresponsible of you to tell children that they should share personal data about themselves on the Internet.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
harry8 8y ago
Oh hell no. Don't preach honesty to thieves and con-people here. The whole tech industry data-harvest has been done dishonestly and is the most massive bait and switch since forever. The con is on and we didn't know about it at first. You did? Really? Well you were in the 0.00001% who understood it. The thing is the muppets who make regulatory decisions can't find the on switch on a computer so the "just don't" is complete nonsense. Everything from your social life to your salary takes a huge hit because everyone else made a decision for you. You've been held hostage like it or not. Avoided gmail? Nope, they've got basically your entire inbox through your counterparties. Avoid facebook? Nope, they've got a shadow profile from everyone uploading their address books. And they've convinced everyone that non-facebook users don't need invitations to stuff. Avoid linkedin, avoid job opportunies because recruiters have decided for you that this is what they'll use? Just don't? Yeah, right. Treating these data harvesting sites with withering contempt until they prove themselves honest is actually the correct and proper thing to do. ESPECIALLY tell children to lie and lie and lie becuase any information these vermin get on children could follow them around for the rest of their lives and have affects we don't yet understand. "But we wouldn't let them, there would be laws passed against it." Maybe, but extrapolating from what we've seen so far it seems very, very unlikely. New regulations have until now have just about universally been conceived in idiocy, protected incumbents, punished new-entrants and provided nothing of value to consumers. Telling children that they should not trust big tech firms is not just right, it's our duty. We do understand just how untrustworthy these firms are now, let alone how you're trusting all future possible owners and employees any number of years hence. It's insane to even think about trusting them any time you can simply avoid it.
potempkin_TOS 8y ago
"Your honor, my client -- a child -- had a typo in the submission form. There is no case here." (IANAL)
- jstarfish 8y ago
  Is any contract entered into by a child even binding?
  - potempkin_TOS 8y ago
    See, you're the one who should be representing my hypothetical client instead of me.
yumraj 8y ago
You can lie about the birth date by picking something in the neighborhood and still be close enough to your real age to hit the creation path, per your comment, that complies with COPPA.

by patja 8y ago

fzeroracer 8y ago

To be honest, I would probably be the person telling kids to never share accurate information about yourself online. Granted this is bad advice if you're convincing kids to not play mature games (which should be a whole separate conversation in itself) but I think there's a huge looming issue with online presence. There's a lot of kids leaving a huge amount of information about them online because of the internet storing almost everything they do. They link every account or every detail to themselves in real life, making it easy for people and companies to gather a ton of free data. Some of which might be dangerous to their future careers.

whoopdedo 8y ago
Which is why I feel telling kids not to share things online is like abstinence-only sex ed. As an adult, you have the wisdom and self-restraint to practice abstinence. Teenagers have neither of those. But they do have brains and bodies that put them at risk for STDs or pregnancy. It's foolish to make them take a gamble that their physiology has stacked the deck against them. Socializing with your peers is as natural as sex. We grew up where online communication was either non-existent or niche enough that we don't feel it's necessary for socialization. But teenagers today have been exposed to the internet since birth. To them not participating in social networks is as absurd as being constantly online is uncomfortable to the older generation. Or it's like telling a teenager to ignore their sexual desire. It's not going to happen. So teaching kids how to be safe online while still participating is the practical thing to do. And it's important to give them tools and knowledge that makes it possible for them succeed in protecting themselves. When I think about it that way, I question my own standing in the privacy debate. I often point out how older people seem out-of-touch with how technology works. Well I don't participate in a lot of social platforms. Why should I be listened to about what is appropriate for those companies? I can say what I want for myself, but that isn't necessarily helpful for people who have a different lifestyle than I do. Does being too severe an advocate for privacy, and demonizing social media companies make me like to the old church lady saying that giving out condoms in school is evil?
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  I don't think that is a quite accurate comparison. Telling kids to not share things online and telling them to minimize details that identify them are two quite different things. The closest analog to your abstinence comparison would be telling them to outright avoid or refuse to use social media. The easiest way to explain to them how to properly be safe online is to ask them 'what would your parents or teachers find if they looked up your username? if they started googling details about you?'. They may not care what their friends might find, but when you rope in family and teachers finding more personal details that is a great way to get them more invested in maintaining their privacy.

lovich 8y ago

Why would you teach children to help companies harvest their data by accurately filling in forms for them? If they we're all just innocent checks to see if they should be offered a product or not I could see your argument. Companies however, have weaponized personal data and once given away it can't come back. They should be adding noise to any data they have to give up just to help mask themselves in the digital world.

DanBC 8y ago
COPPA means companies are severely limited to the information they can gather on children. When a child fills out a form with a fake, older, age it increasesthe amount of data that canbe collected about that child.
- lovich 8y ago
  Even if you believed that companies were following the law, which I do not, then you still have to contend with the fact that most software shops are run in such a slipshod manner that you virtually garunteed to have your data stolen when that company is hacked
  - JeremyNT 8y ago
    It would seem that the optimal solution is to lie about your age, while still using an age low enough to trigger those legal protections. The best of both worlds...
- itronitron 8y ago
  so just put in a fake younger age
- koolba 8y ago
  That’s why they should lie with the information of a different child. So little Alice, age 12, born in July, becomes little Bobby, age 11, born in October.
  - 8y ago

Symbiote 8y ago

The correct approach is surely to give a fake, child's date of birth. 1 January 2008, for example.

slavik81 8y ago

Children learn to lie about their age because they are discriminated against when they tell the truth. It's an entirely rational response to a system that rewards their honesty by treating them as a second-class citizen.

xfitm3 8y ago

What happens to their data after they're 13? IMO the best strategy is to nullify the value of the information companies collect, and yes, that means to lie. Simple Demographics Often Identify People Uniquely https://dataprivacylab.org/projects/identifiability/paper1.pdf https://dataprivacylab.org/projects/identifiability/paper1.p...

rapnie 8y ago
Absolutely minimizing the data and details you leave behind is very good advice. But I wonder how long - with state-of-the-art aggregation and correlation techniques - lying will be an effective strategy. You can say you are Peter, but if you at the same time accidentally and regularly give your position away from an address that only has an Anna living there (together with other Anna-specific data) you will be found out soon enough. And you also run the risk of an algorithm marking you as unreliable or prone to lying (and other misunderstandings about you).

jatkins 8y ago

It's very irresponsible of you to tell children that they should share personal data about themselves on the Internet.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

harry8 8y ago

Oh hell no. Don't preach honesty to thieves and con-people here. The whole tech industry data-harvest has been done dishonestly and is the most massive bait and switch since forever. The con is on and we didn't know about it at first. You did? Really? Well you were in the 0.00001% who understood it. The thing is the muppets who make regulatory decisions can't find the on switch on a computer so the "just don't" is complete nonsense. Everything from your social life to your salary takes a huge hit because everyone else made a decision for you. You've been held hostage like it or not. Avoided gmail? Nope, they've got basically your entire inbox through your counterparties. Avoid facebook? Nope, they've got a shadow profile from everyone uploading their address books. And they've convinced everyone that non-facebook users don't need invitations to stuff. Avoid linkedin, avoid job opportunies because recruiters have decided for you that this is what they'll use? Just don't? Yeah, right. Treating these data harvesting sites with withering contempt until they prove themselves honest is actually the correct and proper thing to do. ESPECIALLY tell children to lie and lie and lie becuase any information these vermin get on children could follow them around for the rest of their lives and have affects we don't yet understand. "But we wouldn't let them, there would be laws passed against it." Maybe, but extrapolating from what we've seen so far it seems very, very unlikely. New regulations have until now have just about universally been conceived in idiocy, protected incumbents, punished new-entrants and provided nothing of value to consumers. Telling children that they should not trust big tech firms is not just right, it's our duty. We do understand just how untrustworthy these firms are now, let alone how you're trusting all future possible owners and employees any number of years hence. It's insane to even think about trusting them any time you can simply avoid it.

potempkin_TOS 8y ago

"Your honor, my client -- a child -- had a typo in the submission form. There is no case here." (IANAL)

jstarfish 8y ago
Is any contract entered into by a child even binding?
- potempkin_TOS 8y ago
  See, you're the one who should be representing my hypothetical client instead of me.

yumraj 8y ago

You can lie about the birth date by picking something in the neighborhood and still be close enough to your real age to hit the creation path, per your comment, that complies with COPPA.