5 ms·

I remain skeptical of anyone trying to tell me that I'm suffering from a horrendous disease for which there are no symptoms. The whole thing smacks of pseudosci

by hugh3 16y ago

I remain skeptical of anyone trying to tell me that I'm suffering from a horrendous disease for which there are no symptoms. The whole thing smacks of pseudoscience. Back problems are very common. Digestive problems are very common. Foot problems? Not so much. Most old people have feet which are still perfectly functional and comfortable, and the shoes they wore most of their lives are less comfortable than shoes are now. Even women who have spent most of their lives in high heels do not, for the most part, seem to suffer from serious foot problems. So where's the horrendous downside, that I seem to be missing, of shoes?

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Even women who have spent most of their lives in high heels do not, for the most part, seem to suffer from serious foot problems. I don't think this is true. All the women I know who wear high heels routinely complain of foot or knee pain (at least, the women I know well enough who would complain to me). I know of at least two women with permanent knee injuries caused (in large part) from wearing high heels. If you ride the subway in NYC, you'll see plenty of ads for podiatrists typically featuring an unhappy looking woman (call 1-800-???-FOOT).
- TGJ 16y ago
  http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/14/costs-of-wearing-heels/ http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/14/costs-of-wearin... "Curious, they used MRI and saw that the Achilles’ tendon compensated for muscle fiber length. The tendon was significantly thicker and stiffer in high-heel wearers."
staktrace 16y ago
> Back problems are very common. Digestive problems are very common. They are in the civilized world, where everybody wears shoes with fat heels, and eats garbage. Take a look at places where people have to walk barefoot and you'll see a huge difference. More relevant links: http://mtkfitness.typepad.com/mtk-fitness/2009/07/more-antishoe-rhetoric.html http://mtkfitness.typepad.com/mtk-fitness/2009/07/more-antis... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-trainers-Are-expensive-running-shoes-waste-money.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-...
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Yes, but on the other hand, places "where people have to walk barefoot" often have high rates of hookworm infection - they typically enter the body through the soles of the feet - causing anemia, stunted physical and mental growth, child morbidity, etc. As my medical history professor put it: "Have you ever noticed how in [American civil war] pictures, Confederate soldiers looked smaller than the Northern soldiers, like some of them were still kids? A lot of them had their growth stunted because of hookworm, due to walking barefoot." This was a major public health issue in the Southern US in the 30s. It still is in much of the world. Suggesting people run barefoot is pretty irresponsible, and shows how many things they take for granted - like people crusading against vaccination . Also, a lot of peasants centuries ago ate poorly, too. Want an example? Read about pellegra in Italy, beri-beri, or how much alcohol was commonly consumed in colonial America on a daily basis. As counter-intuitive as it must sound, many peasants were poor, and weren't always able to eat well.
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    Indeed, Humans moving to Northern climes traded the hazards of living in clothing for the hazard of living with endemic diseases (which both clothing and a colder climate warded off). But I'd personally like to avoid both kinds of problems if I could... Also, Pallegra wasn't a disease of the traditional peasant diet but was a result of the introduction of corn into the diet, a feature of development. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra#History)
    - silentbicycle 16y ago
      About pellegra - you're right. I added more examples. Better example: When health-food advocates talk about how whole grain bread is more nutritious than bread made with just white flour* , they sometimes note that people favored white flour because of some elaborate cultural subtext about whiteness and purity. That's BS - it's because without refrigeration, the oils in the bran go rancid . Readily available whole grain bread is actually a modern luxury, thanks to transportation infrastructure and pervasive refrigeration. White flour has a much longer shelf life, so it was common historically - it's not junk people started getting fed recently due to some evil processed food conspiracy. * Spoiler alert - it is, and it often tastes better.
kareemm 16y ago
When you wear shoes, you're much more likely to heel strike. from http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFo...: "In heel striking, the collision of the heel with the ground generates a significant impact transient, a nearly instantaneous, large force. This force sends a shock wave up through the body via the skeletal system. In forefoot striking, the collision of the forefoot with the ground generates a very minimal impact force with no impact transient." In other words, your knees, hips, and back act as shock absorbers when you heel strike. Try this experiment - jump into the air, landing on your heels. Then jump, landing on the balls of your feet. How does each one feel?
TGJ 16y ago
The interesting thing about the body is, when you damage one area, lots of times another area feels the pain. When you support yourself day in and day out with the wrong shoe, your back has to work harder to pick up the slack. The average person is a heel striker which sends up vibrations to the knees and back. Since the knees work harder than normal, the muscles in your legs work hard and develop. From there, the average person does little to no exercise to stretch out the muscles, especially the hamstrings which when developed and tight pull on the back. Then there's the simple fact that we have five toes which normally would be spread apart and help with balance and agility. We then shove them into badly fitting shoes and we squeeze our toes together practically forming one giant toe. This of course due to the fact that humans as a race decided walking on concrete and asphalt was much better than grass and dirt.
- joshkaufman 16y ago
  Very good point. I had lower back pain until I switched to being mostly barefoot or wearing barefoot shoes. After a few weeks of not heal striking, my back pain disappeared. Sample size of one, so take that for what it's worth. It's not a stretch to think that adding new elements to a complex system that's developed over millions of years may introduce problems. Eliminate the new element, and you may eliminate the problem.
  - fondue 16y ago
    Funny, I had nearly an identical experience and this was before learning about the vibrams or this 'issue'.
joe_the_user 16y ago
The argument you give could easily be made about cigarettes or any other well known health hazard. "I can't see what's bad about X, many people X all their lives and they seem fine".
- altano 16y ago
  Uh, lung cancer?
- hugh3 16y ago
  Not really, the increase in lung disease due to cigarettes was very noticeable. These supposed foot problems which supposedly 80% of 40-year-olds have are apparently invisible and symptomless. How is this different to someone telling me that my aura is misaligned or that I have too many body thetans?
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    Huh, The increase in lung disease is not noticeable in the sense that you could not connect cigarettes and lung disease without scientifically studying it. In the 1920's, you'd find claims cigarettes helped the lungs. I'm not certain about the direct shoe-body-misalignment thing. But I know physical therapists can measure habitually shortened or stretched muscles in people and this is a condition that will often cause physical problems as a person gets older even the person doesn't notice anything at the moment of measurement. See: http://www.amazon.com/Muscles-Function-Florence-Peterson-Kendall/dp/0683045768 http://www.amazon.com/Muscles-Function-Florence-Peterson-Ken... The standard reference for physical therapists. And do people get up votes these days on HN for taring any opponent with over-the-top New Age rhetoric?
btilly 16y ago
Foot problems are not common? It seems that we know a very different selection of old people!
brianbreslin 16y ago
you're missing the point. improper use of your feet causes problems up the whole skeletal structure. hips, knees, ankles, back, etc. LOTS of old people I've seen have problems with bad hips, knees, etc. The theory is if we strengthened our foot muscles and such, there would be less load on the muscles further up the body so to speak that are compensating for improper balance or gait. basically your feet should be handling those functions, in extremely thick shoes, the feet aren't doing their job as well.

by hugh3 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Even women who have spent most of their lives in high heels do not, for the most part, seem to suffer from serious foot problems. I don't think this is true. All the women I know who wear high heels routinely complain of foot or knee pain (at least, the women I know well enough who would complain to me). I know of at least two women with permanent knee injuries caused (in large part) from wearing high heels. If you ride the subway in NYC, you'll see plenty of ads for podiatrists typically featuring an unhappy looking woman (call 1-800-???-FOOT).

TGJ 16y ago
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/14/costs-of-wearing-heels/ http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/sep/14/costs-of-wearin... "Curious, they used MRI and saw that the Achilles’ tendon compensated for muscle fiber length. The tendon was significantly thicker and stiffer in high-heel wearers."

staktrace 16y ago

> Back problems are very common. Digestive problems are very common. They are in the civilized world, where everybody wears shoes with fat heels, and eats garbage. Take a look at places where people have to walk barefoot and you'll see a huge difference. More relevant links: http://mtkfitness.typepad.com/mtk-fitness/2009/07/more-antishoe-rhetoric.html http://mtkfitness.typepad.com/mtk-fitness/2009/07/more-antis... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-trainers-Are-expensive-running-shoes-waste-money.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-...

silentbicycle 16y ago
Yes, but on the other hand, places "where people have to walk barefoot" often have high rates of hookworm infection - they typically enter the body through the soles of the feet - causing anemia, stunted physical and mental growth, child morbidity, etc. As my medical history professor put it: "Have you ever noticed how in [American civil war] pictures, Confederate soldiers looked smaller than the Northern soldiers, like some of them were still kids? A lot of them had their growth stunted because of hookworm, due to walking barefoot." This was a major public health issue in the Southern US in the 30s. It still is in much of the world. Suggesting people run barefoot is pretty irresponsible, and shows how many things they take for granted - like people crusading against vaccination . Also, a lot of peasants centuries ago ate poorly, too. Want an example? Read about pellegra in Italy, beri-beri, or how much alcohol was commonly consumed in colonial America on a daily basis. As counter-intuitive as it must sound, many peasants were poor, and weren't always able to eat well.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Indeed, Humans moving to Northern climes traded the hazards of living in clothing for the hazard of living with endemic diseases (which both clothing and a colder climate warded off). But I'd personally like to avoid both kinds of problems if I could... Also, Pallegra wasn't a disease of the traditional peasant diet but was a result of the introduction of corn into the diet, a feature of development. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra#History)
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    About pellegra - you're right. I added more examples. Better example: When health-food advocates talk about how whole grain bread is more nutritious than bread made with just white flour* , they sometimes note that people favored white flour because of some elaborate cultural subtext about whiteness and purity. That's BS - it's because without refrigeration, the oils in the bran go rancid . Readily available whole grain bread is actually a modern luxury, thanks to transportation infrastructure and pervasive refrigeration. White flour has a much longer shelf life, so it was common historically - it's not junk people started getting fed recently due to some evil processed food conspiracy. * Spoiler alert - it is, and it often tastes better.

kareemm 16y ago

When you wear shoes, you're much more likely to heel strike. from http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFootStrike.html http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/4BiomechanicsofFo...: "In heel striking, the collision of the heel with the ground generates a significant impact transient, a nearly instantaneous, large force. This force sends a shock wave up through the body via the skeletal system. In forefoot striking, the collision of the forefoot with the ground generates a very minimal impact force with no impact transient." In other words, your knees, hips, and back act as shock absorbers when you heel strike. Try this experiment - jump into the air, landing on your heels. Then jump, landing on the balls of your feet. How does each one feel?

TGJ 16y ago

The interesting thing about the body is, when you damage one area, lots of times another area feels the pain. When you support yourself day in and day out with the wrong shoe, your back has to work harder to pick up the slack. The average person is a heel striker which sends up vibrations to the knees and back. Since the knees work harder than normal, the muscles in your legs work hard and develop. From there, the average person does little to no exercise to stretch out the muscles, especially the hamstrings which when developed and tight pull on the back. Then there's the simple fact that we have five toes which normally would be spread apart and help with balance and agility. We then shove them into badly fitting shoes and we squeeze our toes together practically forming one giant toe. This of course due to the fact that humans as a race decided walking on concrete and asphalt was much better than grass and dirt.

joshkaufman 16y ago
Very good point. I had lower back pain until I switched to being mostly barefoot or wearing barefoot shoes. After a few weeks of not heal striking, my back pain disappeared. Sample size of one, so take that for what it's worth. It's not a stretch to think that adding new elements to a complex system that's developed over millions of years may introduce problems. Eliminate the new element, and you may eliminate the problem.
- fondue 16y ago
  Funny, I had nearly an identical experience and this was before learning about the vibrams or this 'issue'.

joe_the_user 16y ago

The argument you give could easily be made about cigarettes or any other well known health hazard. "I can't see what's bad about X, many people X all their lives and they seem fine".

altano 16y ago
Uh, lung cancer?
hugh3 16y ago
Not really, the increase in lung disease due to cigarettes was very noticeable. These supposed foot problems which supposedly 80% of 40-year-olds have are apparently invisible and symptomless. How is this different to someone telling me that my aura is misaligned or that I have too many body thetans?
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Huh, The increase in lung disease is not noticeable in the sense that you could not connect cigarettes and lung disease without scientifically studying it. In the 1920's, you'd find claims cigarettes helped the lungs. I'm not certain about the direct shoe-body-misalignment thing. But I know physical therapists can measure habitually shortened or stretched muscles in people and this is a condition that will often cause physical problems as a person gets older even the person doesn't notice anything at the moment of measurement. See: http://www.amazon.com/Muscles-Function-Florence-Peterson-Kendall/dp/0683045768 http://www.amazon.com/Muscles-Function-Florence-Peterson-Ken... The standard reference for physical therapists. And do people get up votes these days on HN for taring any opponent with over-the-top New Age rhetoric?

btilly 16y ago

Foot problems are not common? It seems that we know a very different selection of old people!

brianbreslin 16y ago

you're missing the point. improper use of your feet causes problems up the whole skeletal structure. hips, knees, ankles, back, etc. LOTS of old people I've seen have problems with bad hips, knees, etc. The theory is if we strengthened our foot muscles and such, there would be less load on the muscles further up the body so to speak that are compensating for improper balance or gait. basically your feet should be handling those functions, in extremely thick shoes, the feet aren't doing their job as well.