8 ms·

Recently, I brought a Dasung paperlike HD to use as a monitor. (crazy expensive, prob should've spend money elsewhere...) I thought some things were impossible

by chaoxu 8y ago

Recently, I brought a Dasung paperlike HD to use as a monitor. (crazy expensive, prob should've spend money elsewhere...) I thought some things were impossible with eink, but it proved me wrong. (video in a reasonable fps) It has a few different ways of display. For example: Floyd–Steinberg dithering: essentially only black and white with dithering, and the speed pretty good. A16: uses 16 shades of grey, but the speed is horrible for moving images. So I wonder if a mix of the two can do much better (e.g. moving objects using floyd-steinberg until it stops moving) Before doing that, I need to know the exact limit of eink. Are some operations slow because the microcontroller or because it is the limit of the display module itself? This article shows such a question is not that easy to answer using the openly available information. Also, I'm interested if there are algorithmic problems to be solved in this space. (I do research in theoretical computer science). If you are in NYC and knowledgeable I'm very interested to chat (I know little, but I have the monitor you can play with).

tigershark 8y ago
Why would you use an e-ink display for videos? The main advantage is the low power consumption because it needs power only to refresh, using it for a video it will negate that advantage and draw much more power than a traditional display with an awful image quality...
- chaoxu 8y ago
  1. Currently, I use it for writing code and reading papers. However, I still want the monitor to be a good enough drop-in monitor for things I need to occasionally do. For example, I need to switch to a browser window to check what was that error I'm getting. 2. Visual snow syndrome: Many had their first experience of visual snow after staring into the screen for too long. People who believe in that is the cause of visual snow would want a screen that does not emit light.
  - cedex12 8y ago
    How well does it fare for those tasks (code and papers)? I'd very much like to have such a screen but the price tags of what I've seen so far is probihitive…
  - mrob 8y ago
    What exactly about emitted light is a problem? Light doesn't carry a memory of how it was generated, so it must be some difference in some measurable property, e.g. brightness/contrast/color spectrum/flicker/polarization, or the way these change at different viewing angles. If you know which attributes are important then you might be able to match them with an emissive display.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      Emissive displays don’t generally match the brightness of their surroundings; even with automatic adjustment, most are physically incapable of being as bright as a newspaper in daylight, and many cannot be as dim as a newspaper lit only by one of those small book-reading lights without being switched off entirely. There’s also the spikey spectrum, which looks the same consciously but I’ve seen claims [1] that is messes with our circadian rhythm. [1] I lack the skill to tell if this is real science or neo-mystic woo.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I found this command that works, so far, on all my Linux laptops, to give much greater control over backlight intensity. sudo su -c "echo 200 >/sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness" Replace 200 with another number for different brightness. Haven't found a Windows nor MacOS equivalent though. I've used it a fair bit in conjunction with Redshift to get a screen that's reasonable for reading ebooks in low light. I'd buy an e-ink laptop tomorrow if there was one.
      - orbital-decay 8y ago
        >Emissive displays don’t generally match the brightness of their surroundings How so? You can set any brightness you want to match the environment. Usage under direct sunlight is one edge case e-paper is clearly better at, and any usage with poor environmental lighting is detrimental to your eyes itself, regardless of technology. I'm really sceptical about the entire "E Ink is better for your eyes" thing until I see some serious studies. People managed to ruin their eyesight centuries before computer screens. There's just too many factors at play here, from genetics to typography.
  - Tharkun 8y ago
    I was under the impression that Visual Snow was a symptop of anxiety?
    - abledon 8y ago
      anxiety is a symptom of an underlying nervous system dis-order. so staring at a screen for long periods of time is hard on an organisms nervous system (to remain in place for so long without movement). So visual snow and anxiety both stem from the underlying structure being at dis-ease.
    - hestipod 8y ago
      Visual snow could also be to to flickering from PWM, or more likely temporal/spatial dithering (a leading theory in LED LCD based eyestrain but as yet unproven as the cause). Even a white background on a monitor, even a static image, isn't just static white...it's constant flickering of pixels to make a certain "white" and to smooth moving images as well. Whatever the ultimate cause it's not normal or healthy to stare at emitted light most of the day and most of us do...add flickering and other visual tricks displays use and it's no wonder eyestrain exists. Nobody would stare at a 300 nit lightbulb for hours and call that reasonable, but that's what backlit LCD displays are. I didn't have a problem for most of my life, and still don't with books under proper lighting, but now I have a severe one with LCDs that and cannot find a definitive answer or fix and frankly it's crushing a last chance I have to be somewhat independent and survive.
  - enriquto 8y ago
    > I use it for writing code and reading papers. Does it look good with white text on black background ?
    - chaoxu 8y ago
      It does not look good, and black causes ghosting.
  - tigershark 8y ago
    Visual snow was a thing years before computer monitor existed.
- Lewton 8y ago
  > The main advantage is the low power consumption No? The main advantage is that it's easier on the eyes
  - ben_w 8y ago
    People keep saying eInk is better than reflective black and white LCD, such as that found on calculators. I’m unconvinced, but (obviously) to test this I would have to actually get a monitor sized black and white reflective display, and I can’t find any of those — largest I have found so far is 320x240 for about £200
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      I haven't seen a reflective black and white LCD matrix that didn't suck. Think TI-82 calculators. That being said the segmented LCDs like those found in 4 function calculators and wrist watches usually look fantastic.
      - ben_w 8y ago
        I had a TI-83. Yes, the resolution was terrible by modern standards. The contrast was fine until the batteries started to die. If I didn’t already have way too much on my personal to-do list, I’d be interested in converting an LCD with a backlight into a reflective one. I assume it’s not possible with all models, but also that it is possible with some.
      - dfox 8y ago
        IMO you do not have to go that far for graphical reflective LCD that didn't suck: TI-89 has one. Also LCDs in Psion handhelds were quite reasonable.
        cptskippy 8y ago
        I can't find my TI-89 to compare but I have a TI-85 and TI-83 from the late 90s and the newer 83 has a noticably better screen so you're probably right. I recall being impressed by the TI-92's screen but I sold mine long ago so I have no basis for comparison.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Not the OP, but the main reason I want an e-ink display (for programming, which may include animations) is so that I can do it in full sunlight. I work remotely and often work in public places. Working on a park bench, for example, is normally impossible, unless it happens to be cloudy and I'm in a shady place. I'm just hoping e-ink becomes a mainstream thing before I retire.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    The new MacBook Pro screen work in full sunlight - it's just about being bright enough. Another option is to place the back of a plastic screen towards the sun, using it as a backlight.
    - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
      Have you seen an e-ink display? It is about contrast, not brightness.
      - akvadrako 8y ago
        You need brightness too. I have both e-ink and MBP screens - both work in the sun.
        akvadrako 8y ago
        Just to give some numbers: e-ink has a contrast ratio of about 20:1 with 40% reflectance. A sunny day is 10000 - 30000 nits, giving at least 4000 nits of brightness. The 2018 MPB screen has a 1500:1 contrast ratio and about 500 nits of brightness. So if e-ink is really easier to read in the sun (which I think) then brightness is much more important.
        hestipod 8y ago
        It's not that simple. I cannot explain the physics/physiology of it with any authority, but as someone who suffers from severe strain and headaches with LED (and some CCFL) backlighting I can you it's feeling like something to do with direct vs reflected lighting vs some brightness or contrast metric. Looking at E-Ink or print on paper in a variety if lighting is generally fine (as long as it's bright enough for a normal person to read..obv too dark and different strain occurs)...but an LED backlit LCD even on low settings (so maybe 10% of those 500 nits) results in problems. Stare at a lightbulb vs staring at a white wall that bulb is shining on for a simple illustration. I don't believe it's polarisation either since wearing polarized sunglasses doesn't result in strain and just like an LCD polarizes the light that reaches your eyes, so do the glasses.
vackosar 8y ago
What fps do u get on those modes?
- chaoxu 8y ago
  I don't have an easy way to measure the FPS, but here is a video I just took. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW-gatdEC7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW-gatdEC7w It is reasonable enough to see what's happening, but obviously, I'm not going to watch a movie on that.
  - bmsleight_ 8y ago
    Thanks nice to see it in action, bonus points for the RickRoll
  - knewter 8y ago
    well played
  - petercooper 8y ago
    I measured 5 fps in that video - surprisingly good from what I understood of eink :-)
dukoid 8y ago
I have done software screen mirroring for RTL languages on an Atari ST ages ago. There I had both full images available and I'd just compare source and target rows, skipping 8 rows (IIRC) until detecting change, in which case I'd swap the local area. The start row was incremented after every scan, so I'd be sure to not have missed any pixel after 8 scans. This allowed to track the mouse quickly and also to respond to local changes (text editing) without letting the mirroring thread fully lock up the computer. For your case, it seems more reasonable to divide the screen into some kind of rectangular cells, keep checksums for the cells and switch them to A16 if the checksum stays constant for two visits? This would avoid the need for a full extra frame buffer while still being relatively accurate. I think one main problem will be that you'd need to modify the screen firmware to do something like that. Probably would make sense to code a software emulation on a regular screen to see what it would look like...
sophistication 8y ago
Why do you regret buying it?
- zamadatix 8y ago
  For 1,000 dollars you can get a hell of a monitor setup instead.
  - dorfsmay 8y ago
    That wouldn't work outside in bright light, and would send bad blue light though. Been waiting for an e-ink laptop specifically for working with it outside in the sunlight, and in the evening, since blue light is supposed to be really bad for humans at night.
    - hestipod 8y ago
      Me too...E-Ink/Clear Ink/Mirasol whatever I don't care...just something reflective and not an LED backlight shining in my eyes. I am angry the patent greed has stunted this for so long. There is no physical reason we cannot have laptops and desktop displays with this tech, it's all business bullshit.
      - dorfsmay 8y ago
        Is it a patent issue?
        hestipod 8y ago
        E-ink has been mired in patent stagnation for a long time. I remember 5+ years ago when the Kindle was getting huge there were rapid increases in contrast, color prototypes like Mirasol that just disappeared etc. I supsect someone bought them and quashed it so they can ensure low production costs and high sales as they are the only "legal" source and don't have to spend money creating manufacturing for larger/better tech. At least that's my cynical view of it. ClearInk has been teasing relflective color prototypes for a while and a purchasable tablet is always "right around the corner" for years but I am not holding my breath. They said monitors are many years away so to me that means 10 with their progress so far. There is no technological block to large E-ink/reflective tech panels...they don't use some rare or exotic materials or have some super expensive manufacturing process using unicorn blood. We could easily have desktop displays using them but it's far more profitable to sell 6-9" e-reader displays to Amazon etc that have a high profit margin. This company https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-kit-by-visionect/ https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-kit-... makes a 32" product for signage that doesn't seem to have any input for normal computer use...but its 3500eur. I don't know if they paid huge licensing fees etc or what but the pricing is mental for the tech/materials involved and seems to be purely business/supply stuff. The largest I have seen otherwise is the Dasung stuff that's 13" and 1000eur or the Onyx Boox MAX 13" that is a self contained E-reader and has terrible lag when used as a monitor. I have not found anything between the 13" and this singular 32" available and nothing but the small Dasung designed to be used as a monitor.
userbinator 8y ago
Are some operations slow because the microcontroller or because it is the limit of the display module itself? It's because the technology is a physical one --- tiny bits of reflective/absorbant particles have to physically move up and down to change the state of the pixel. It's almost like a miniaturised flip-dot display: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display The response speed increases with temperature and voltage, but temperature is not really controllable and high-voltage high-frequency drivers are not easy to make in the sizes required. Here's an article about someone making his own segmented eink display: http://we.easyelectronics.ru/HomeTech/izgotovlenie-segmentnogo-indikatora-na-elektronnyh-chernilah-v-kartinkah.html http://we.easyelectronics.ru/HomeTech/izgotovlenie-segmentno... In the comments you can see a picture illustrating the difference the driving voltage makes. (Also previously discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14124086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14124086 ) Related video of someone playing around with the eink material itself, showing how it responds to voltage changes and that it's possible to "draw" on one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXxSOR1PHpE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXxSOR1PHpE

by chaoxu 8y ago

tigershark 8y ago

Why would you use an e-ink display for videos? The main advantage is the low power consumption because it needs power only to refresh, using it for a video it will negate that advantage and draw much more power than a traditional display with an awful image quality...

chaoxu 8y ago
1. Currently, I use it for writing code and reading papers. However, I still want the monitor to be a good enough drop-in monitor for things I need to occasionally do. For example, I need to switch to a browser window to check what was that error I'm getting. 2. Visual snow syndrome: Many had their first experience of visual snow after staring into the screen for too long. People who believe in that is the cause of visual snow would want a screen that does not emit light.
- cedex12 8y ago
  How well does it fare for those tasks (code and papers)? I'd very much like to have such a screen but the price tags of what I've seen so far is probihitive…
- mrob 8y ago
  What exactly about emitted light is a problem? Light doesn't carry a memory of how it was generated, so it must be some difference in some measurable property, e.g. brightness/contrast/color spectrum/flicker/polarization, or the way these change at different viewing angles. If you know which attributes are important then you might be able to match them with an emissive display.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    Emissive displays don’t generally match the brightness of their surroundings; even with automatic adjustment, most are physically incapable of being as bright as a newspaper in daylight, and many cannot be as dim as a newspaper lit only by one of those small book-reading lights without being switched off entirely. There’s also the spikey spectrum, which looks the same consciously but I’ve seen claims [1] that is messes with our circadian rhythm. [1] I lack the skill to tell if this is real science or neo-mystic woo.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I found this command that works, so far, on all my Linux laptops, to give much greater control over backlight intensity. sudo su -c "echo 200 >/sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness" Replace 200 with another number for different brightness. Haven't found a Windows nor MacOS equivalent though. I've used it a fair bit in conjunction with Redshift to get a screen that's reasonable for reading ebooks in low light. I'd buy an e-ink laptop tomorrow if there was one.
    - orbital-decay 8y ago
      >Emissive displays don’t generally match the brightness of their surroundings How so? You can set any brightness you want to match the environment. Usage under direct sunlight is one edge case e-paper is clearly better at, and any usage with poor environmental lighting is detrimental to your eyes itself, regardless of technology. I'm really sceptical about the entire "E Ink is better for your eyes" thing until I see some serious studies. People managed to ruin their eyesight centuries before computer screens. There's just too many factors at play here, from genetics to typography.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  I was under the impression that Visual Snow was a symptop of anxiety?
  - abledon 8y ago
    anxiety is a symptom of an underlying nervous system dis-order. so staring at a screen for long periods of time is hard on an organisms nervous system (to remain in place for so long without movement). So visual snow and anxiety both stem from the underlying structure being at dis-ease.
  - hestipod 8y ago
    Visual snow could also be to to flickering from PWM, or more likely temporal/spatial dithering (a leading theory in LED LCD based eyestrain but as yet unproven as the cause). Even a white background on a monitor, even a static image, isn't just static white...it's constant flickering of pixels to make a certain "white" and to smooth moving images as well. Whatever the ultimate cause it's not normal or healthy to stare at emitted light most of the day and most of us do...add flickering and other visual tricks displays use and it's no wonder eyestrain exists. Nobody would stare at a 300 nit lightbulb for hours and call that reasonable, but that's what backlit LCD displays are. I didn't have a problem for most of my life, and still don't with books under proper lighting, but now I have a severe one with LCDs that and cannot find a definitive answer or fix and frankly it's crushing a last chance I have to be somewhat independent and survive.
- enriquto 8y ago
  > I use it for writing code and reading papers. Does it look good with white text on black background ?
  - chaoxu 8y ago
    It does not look good, and black causes ghosting.
- tigershark 8y ago
  Visual snow was a thing years before computer monitor existed.
Lewton 8y ago
> The main advantage is the low power consumption No? The main advantage is that it's easier on the eyes
- ben_w 8y ago
  People keep saying eInk is better than reflective black and white LCD, such as that found on calculators. I’m unconvinced, but (obviously) to test this I would have to actually get a monitor sized black and white reflective display, and I can’t find any of those — largest I have found so far is 320x240 for about £200
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    I haven't seen a reflective black and white LCD matrix that didn't suck. Think TI-82 calculators. That being said the segmented LCDs like those found in 4 function calculators and wrist watches usually look fantastic.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      I had a TI-83. Yes, the resolution was terrible by modern standards. The contrast was fine until the batteries started to die. If I didn’t already have way too much on my personal to-do list, I’d be interested in converting an LCD with a backlight into a reflective one. I assume it’s not possible with all models, but also that it is possible with some.
    - dfox 8y ago
      IMO you do not have to go that far for graphical reflective LCD that didn't suck: TI-89 has one. Also LCDs in Psion handhelds were quite reasonable.
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        I can't find my TI-89 to compare but I have a TI-85 and TI-83 from the late 90s and the newer 83 has a noticably better screen so you're probably right. I recall being impressed by the TI-92's screen but I sold mine long ago so I have no basis for comparison.
mikekchar 8y ago
Not the OP, but the main reason I want an e-ink display (for programming, which may include animations) is so that I can do it in full sunlight. I work remotely and often work in public places. Working on a park bench, for example, is normally impossible, unless it happens to be cloudy and I'm in a shady place. I'm just hoping e-ink becomes a mainstream thing before I retire.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  The new MacBook Pro screen work in full sunlight - it's just about being bright enough. Another option is to place the back of a plastic screen towards the sun, using it as a backlight.
  - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
    Have you seen an e-ink display? It is about contrast, not brightness.
    - akvadrako 8y ago
      You need brightness too. I have both e-ink and MBP screens - both work in the sun.
      - akvadrako 8y ago
        Just to give some numbers: e-ink has a contrast ratio of about 20:1 with 40% reflectance. A sunny day is 10000 - 30000 nits, giving at least 4000 nits of brightness. The 2018 MPB screen has a 1500:1 contrast ratio and about 500 nits of brightness. So if e-ink is really easier to read in the sun (which I think) then brightness is much more important.
        hestipod 8y ago
        It's not that simple. I cannot explain the physics/physiology of it with any authority, but as someone who suffers from severe strain and headaches with LED (and some CCFL) backlighting I can you it's feeling like something to do with direct vs reflected lighting vs some brightness or contrast metric. Looking at E-Ink or print on paper in a variety if lighting is generally fine (as long as it's bright enough for a normal person to read..obv too dark and different strain occurs)...but an LED backlit LCD even on low settings (so maybe 10% of those 500 nits) results in problems. Stare at a lightbulb vs staring at a white wall that bulb is shining on for a simple illustration. I don't believe it's polarisation either since wearing polarized sunglasses doesn't result in strain and just like an LCD polarizes the light that reaches your eyes, so do the glasses.

vackosar 8y ago

What fps do u get on those modes?

chaoxu 8y ago
I don't have an easy way to measure the FPS, but here is a video I just took. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW-gatdEC7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW-gatdEC7w It is reasonable enough to see what's happening, but obviously, I'm not going to watch a movie on that.
- bmsleight_ 8y ago
  Thanks nice to see it in action, bonus points for the RickRoll
- knewter 8y ago
  well played
- petercooper 8y ago
  I measured 5 fps in that video - surprisingly good from what I understood of eink :-)

dukoid 8y ago

I have done software screen mirroring for RTL languages on an Atari ST ages ago. There I had both full images available and I'd just compare source and target rows, skipping 8 rows (IIRC) until detecting change, in which case I'd swap the local area. The start row was incremented after every scan, so I'd be sure to not have missed any pixel after 8 scans. This allowed to track the mouse quickly and also to respond to local changes (text editing) without letting the mirroring thread fully lock up the computer. For your case, it seems more reasonable to divide the screen into some kind of rectangular cells, keep checksums for the cells and switch them to A16 if the checksum stays constant for two visits? This would avoid the need for a full extra frame buffer while still being relatively accurate. I think one main problem will be that you'd need to modify the screen firmware to do something like that. Probably would make sense to code a software emulation on a regular screen to see what it would look like...

sophistication 8y ago

Why do you regret buying it?

zamadatix 8y ago
For 1,000 dollars you can get a hell of a monitor setup instead.
- dorfsmay 8y ago
  That wouldn't work outside in bright light, and would send bad blue light though. Been waiting for an e-ink laptop specifically for working with it outside in the sunlight, and in the evening, since blue light is supposed to be really bad for humans at night.
  - hestipod 8y ago
    Me too...E-Ink/Clear Ink/Mirasol whatever I don't care...just something reflective and not an LED backlight shining in my eyes. I am angry the patent greed has stunted this for so long. There is no physical reason we cannot have laptops and desktop displays with this tech, it's all business bullshit.
    - dorfsmay 8y ago
      Is it a patent issue?
      - hestipod 8y ago
        E-ink has been mired in patent stagnation for a long time. I remember 5+ years ago when the Kindle was getting huge there were rapid increases in contrast, color prototypes like Mirasol that just disappeared etc. I supsect someone bought them and quashed it so they can ensure low production costs and high sales as they are the only "legal" source and don't have to spend money creating manufacturing for larger/better tech. At least that's my cynical view of it. ClearInk has been teasing relflective color prototypes for a while and a purchasable tablet is always "right around the corner" for years but I am not holding my breath. They said monitors are many years away so to me that means 10 with their progress so far. There is no technological block to large E-ink/reflective tech panels...they don't use some rare or exotic materials or have some super expensive manufacturing process using unicorn blood. We could easily have desktop displays using them but it's far more profitable to sell 6-9" e-reader displays to Amazon etc that have a high profit margin. This company https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-kit-by-visionect/ https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-kit-... makes a 32" product for signage that doesn't seem to have any input for normal computer use...but its 3500eur. I don't know if they paid huge licensing fees etc or what but the pricing is mental for the tech/materials involved and seems to be purely business/supply stuff. The largest I have seen otherwise is the Dasung stuff that's 13" and 1000eur or the Onyx Boox MAX 13" that is a self contained E-reader and has terrible lag when used as a monitor. I have not found anything between the 13" and this singular 32" available and nothing but the small Dasung designed to be used as a monitor.

userbinator 8y ago

Are some operations slow because the microcontroller or because it is the limit of the display module itself? It's because the technology is a physical one --- tiny bits of reflective/absorbant particles have to physically move up and down to change the state of the pixel. It's almost like a miniaturised flip-dot display: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-disc_display The response speed increases with temperature and voltage, but temperature is not really controllable and high-voltage high-frequency drivers are not easy to make in the sizes required. Here's an article about someone making his own segmented eink display: http://we.easyelectronics.ru/HomeTech/izgotovlenie-segmentnogo-indikatora-na-elektronnyh-chernilah-v-kartinkah.html http://we.easyelectronics.ru/HomeTech/izgotovlenie-segmentno... In the comments you can see a picture illustrating the difference the driving voltage makes. (Also previously discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14124086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14124086 ) Related video of someone playing around with the eink material itself, showing how it responds to voltage changes and that it's possible to "draw" on one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXxSOR1PHpE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXxSOR1PHpE