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China is angered by Apple's iPhone event mentioning Taiwan
- xae342 8y agoI doubt many in the Chinese government could explain rationals for the One China policy any more.
- zenbob 8y agoIs there any argument why Taiwan should be treated as anything other than a normal, independent country? I know that China wants to claim sovereignty, but a want is not an argument. I don't mean this as a rhetorical question--I am curious if there is any coherent argument here?
- Leary 8y agoUnited Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758
- suyash 8y agoApple did the right thing, why cave to China's political agenda.
- jdavis703 8y agoIt wouldn't call it "propaganda." Countries routinely have territorial disputes. I get China is viewed as a competitor to American interests, but the situation in Taiwan is historically complex. It would be like if Texas or California unilaterally seceded from the U.S., various countries would recognize or not recognize their legitimacy as an independent nation.
- 07d046 8y agoIt's more like if there was a communist revolution in the US followed by a civil war, with the anti-communists ending up holding Texas or California and establishing their own government there. The Chinese Communist Party has never ruled Taiwan, and Taiwan hasn't officially seceded.
- dis-sys 8y agoyour analogy is missing the most politically critical part - the 1943 Cairo Declaration explicitly stated that Taiwan belongs to China and it should be "restored" to China. it is a part of the post-WWII world order.
- rangibaby 8y agoIt would be like if the US had a civil war and one side retreated to Cuba
- erikpukinskis 8y agoWouldn't it be like if the U.S. first annexed Cuba, and then had a civil war where one side retreated to it?
- inawarminister 8y agoIndeed. Only a few have any thoughts about the native Taiwanese, both Aboriginal and Han.
- rangibaby 8y agoAnother country’s colony. Spain in Cuba’s case, Japan in Taiwan’s
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ASalazarMX 8y agoThey should do the same with Palestine so they piss off the other side as well.
- anothergoogler 8y agoWould the opportunity come up? Palestine's GDP is $12B, Taiwan's is $1.1T.
- justicezyx 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Taiwan Taipei skyline.jpg Taipei skyline. Currency New Taiwan dollar (NT$) NT$29.2 per US$ (Apr 2018) Fiscal year Calendar year Trade organizations WTO, APEC, ICC and others (as Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu) Statistics GDP Nominal: $571.5 billion
- anothergoogler 8y agoThat is the nominal GDP, Palestine's nominal GDP is $4B.
- dis-sys 8y agoTaiwan's GDP counts for around 4% of the Chinese GDP, to give you more context, Chinese GDP growth slowed down to 6.8% pa, that is still creating 1.5 times of the entire GDP in Taiwan every 12 months. using your logic here, please don't argue further more, otherwise you'd be arguing with yourself - who care about the tiny island called taiwan.
- anothergoogler 8y agoWhat I was saying is that it's far more likely in general Apple would be dealing with Taiwan, the world's 22nd largest economy, than Palestine, the 129th. That and the large microelectronics industry in Taiwan.
- nipponese 8y agoThe Qing Dynasty annexed the island but was forced to give it up to the Japanese after the Sino-Japanese war. Their historical claim is debatable, but so is the RoC's occupation, imo.
- thebrettd 8y agoYou are not wrong, this is a complex issue. I just can't help but point out your username here :)
- dis-sys 8y agoread the 1943 Cairo Declaration which is the corner stone of the post-WWII world order.
- CogitoCogito 8y agoTrue, but the Cairo declaration was quite clear that Taiwan went to the ROC so I really weakens any PRC legitimacy if anything.
- dis-sys 8y agoThis is as stupid as saying ROC is still a member of the UN simply because it is recognised by the UN chapter as a founding member of UN and permanent member of the UNSC.
- CogitoCogito 8y agoHow is this stupid? The PRC existed when Taiwan was given to the ROC. The borders (i.e. the real ones not the imaginary ones referenced by PRC and ROC laws) between the PRC and the ROC are unchanged in the last 69 years. So no it's quite clear that the Cairo declaration definitely does not support any claims of the PRC to Taiwan. Bringing up representation in the UN is irrelevant and if anything the only stupid thing said in this back and forth.
- elefanten 8y agoFrom the perspective of any one given actor/organization, the coherent argument might be "we don't want to piss of China". But to the spirit of your question, no there's no argument that's externally valid. The CCP has claims relating to it's legitimacy, security and territorial claims. They are not widely viewed as credible, but China has insisted on making Taiwan a red line issue so everybody else has to pretend like these claims might be legitimate. At the end of the day it's a very large political entity trying to take complete control of a much smaller one against it's will. It's colonialism plain and simple.
- platinumrad 8y ago>It's colonialism plain and simple. It's really not that plain or simple. Any population that might have a claim to being "indigenous" to Taiwan has already been colonized by the Dutch and the Portuguese, then the Qing dynasty, then the Japanese, and finally the ROC, which is the sovereign entity that governs Taiwan today. If anything, the transition from Japanese to KMT rule was rather brutal and colonial, although Taiwan is a rather healthy democracy today and the current ruling faction, the Pan-Greens, have historically fought against that legacy.
- dis-sys 8y agoalthough Taiwan is a rather healthy democracy today and the current ruling faction, the Pan-Greens, have historically fought against that legacy. you must be kidding yourself. just looking at news happened in the last 72 hours -A Dupty commissioner of ROC's Transitional Justice Commission openly instructed his men to launch political attacks against a key KMT party candidate, he also urged MPs from his own party to assist him. He further pointed out that his vision for the ROC's Transitional Justice Commission is the Eastern Depot [1] style secret police. His passionate speech was secretly recorded by a member from his own party and released to the public. Your favourite pan-green forces want Eastern Depot [1] style secret police to be re-installed, yet you choose to troll here that they are progressive and better than KMT. What a bloody joke!You have to wonder what happens if the tap was not released to the public.
- deleted 8y ago
- 07d046 8y agoIf you read through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan , there are a lot of issues, like exactly who Japan surrendered to, and the status of the governments of China and Taiwan given that they were opposing sides in a civil war that never officially ended. There are those on Taiwan who believe that they are the rightful rulers of all China. My take on it is that Taiwan, China, and even the US can argue their claim to having sovereignty over Taiwan, but in the end, it will come down to balancing "possession is nine tenths of the law" against "might is right".
- lev99 8y agoThe Republic of China was in control of Taiwan when they lost the Chinese Civil War to The Communist Party of China. When the Republic of China retreated to Taiwan they did not have to file for asylum or apply for a Visa. Taiwan was part of China. The Communist Party is declaring when they won the civil war they gained control over all of China, including Taiwan. This is the narrative for Taiwan not having sovereignty, and not necessary my own views.
- brazzledazzle 8y agoAs an outsider that seems like sour grapes. If they truly did win complete control then they would have taken control of Taiwan soon after the end of their Civil War.
- platinumrad 8y agoThe thing is, the war never officially ended. Another way to look at it is if the Confederacy never surrendered to the union and instead retreated to Cuba and became the dominant political force on that island.
- true_religion 8y agoYes, and rather than the comfederacy who was trying to ceded, Taiwan holds that they are they legitimate Chinese government.
- perennate 8y agoI don't think Confederacy ever cared to control all of U.S. So this analogy might work better if Confederacy was the one who won, and Union retreated to Cuba. Today, Cuba happens to be a highly desirable location (strategically, or for resources, or etc.). So Confederates, who now control continental U.S., want to maintain their claim on it. Meanwhile, nowadays a majority of the people in USA (a government which controls only Cuba) consider themselves Cubans, and almost no one in USA cares about regaining control of continental U.S. But Confederates feel that, if USA renounces control of continental U.S., it would be a step towards USA independence, which would further weaken Confederate claim over Cuba. So they pressure USA to keep referring to themselves as "USA" instead of "Cuba". Additionally, they think that the "one America" stance depends to some extent on USA retaining continental U.S. in its official borders. (But in reality, no USA citizens, aka Cubans, care about these borders continuing to include continental U.S.)
- cknight 8y agoThe official position of both governments (mainland and Taiwan) is that there is only one country called China, and it is made up of both the mainland and Taiwan. Of course your average Taiwanese citizen is unlikely to hold such a position, but I'm just looking at this at an official level to start. From the mainland government's perspective, that country is the People's Republic of China, governing from Beijing. For Taiwan, that country is the Republic of China, currently governing from Taipei having fled the mainland. The civil war has never officially ended, and each lays claim to the others territory as the rightful owner. This is the basis of the "One China Policy" that you might read about every now and then. The vast majority of countries around the world switched to recognising the PRC instead of the ROC many decades ago, and the PRC offers financial incentives for doing so, which matters to small countries, notably in the Pacific. They also threaten the opposite for anyone who recognises the ROC instead, or more recently, any entity that lists Taiwan as anything other than part of China. Airlines were recently threatened by the PRC for listing Taiwan as a separate country instead of a region - I believe most capitulated. This is the key argument you are looking for at least in the context of corporations such as Apple, who seems to think they're big enough to stand up on this one. Qantas on the other hand, backed down immediately. Beyond corporations though, more generally, it is not so much about China claiming sovereignty over Taiwan - it is about the opposite being the case as well. At the point where Taiwan renounces its claim on the mainland, China will consider it the first official step on the path to Taiwan's independence. It has repeatedly said that this is a red line it will not allow Taiwan to cross without a forceful response. Another red line, for example, being Taiwan's possession of nuclear weapons. I believe Taiwan could have declared independence in the 1990s and come out on top in any military confrontation with the PRC. However, there was not enough support amongst the population at the time[1] - most people considered themselves "Chinese" as opposed to "Taiwanese". That is now starting to reverse, but IMO Taiwan is no longer in a position to successfully defend itself if the PRC decides to act. The US has given no guarantees it would defend Taiwan in the event of a unilateral declaration of independence. So to sum up: Taiwan is not treated as a normal independent country by most entities because the PRC has enough clout (economically and militarily) to threaten those who wish to do so. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/02/yes-taiwan-wants-one-china-but-which-china-does-it-want/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/0...
- tomohawk 8y agoTaiwan Taiwan Taiwan Taiwan
- saagarjha 8y ago> commentators on Weibo accused Apple of disrespecting China and threatened to return all their Apple products. Is this a thing that people will actually do?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- gbraad 8y agoYes... But more likely they boycot and stop buying products for extended time. They have forced companies before to 'change' opinions, but these were related to quality issues for instance like Ericsson, or local branches of Japanese supermarkets
- Dig1t 8y agoNationalism seems to be very strong in China. Its kind of disturbing tbh
- alexgolive 8y agoPuerto Rico was listed separately from the United States, and it's clearly not a political statement. I think Apple is safe here. Apple should turn this around and say China is showing its ignorance on US sovereignty over Puerto Rico :p
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sseibel 8y agoSorry, but Taiwan has been totally independent from China for many decades. I guess only China considers Taiwan still a part of China.
- whooshee 8y agoYou must know Chiang never acknowledged Taiwan's independence instead he had been trying to get back mainland and maintain ROC. It's more complicated.
- sdinsn 8y agoChina and Taiwan have a long standing agreement that they are both part of a single China, they just disagree about who should lead it. So technically, Taiwan considers itself part of China, in an abstract sense.
- philliphaydon 8y ago> China and Taiwan have a long standing agreement that they are both part of a single China More info please, this isn't what I know of Taiwan.
- platinumrad 8y agoIt depends on how the "One China Policy" is interpreted, and it is interpreted quite differently quite differently by different factions within Taiwan. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17982858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17982858
- perennate 8y agoMy understanding is that the Taiwanese government has not renounced claims over mainland China because doing so would piss off China, who would view it as a step towards independence. Aside from escalation of tensions, pissing off PRC would likely worsen economic relations, which I think would be more damaging to Taiwan than to China (according to Wikipedia, China is Taiwan's largest import/export partner). Absent the political/economic ramifications, I believe only a very small percentage of Taiwan's population would mind if Taiwan renounced these claims. Even "pro-reunification" KMT has stepped a bit back from its reunification stance, e.g. setting conditions like "democracy, economic development to a level near that of Taiwan, and equitable wealth distribution" for China before reunification can occur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan). So, for many, the only reason to support an "eventual reunification" stance is it'd strengthen the economy, i.e., they don't mind China playing its word games if it means peace and Taiwan prospering. This doesn't mean "pro-independence" pan-green party ignores the economic effects. They argue for developing economic relations with other countries, to reduce economic dependence on China, and thus make independence more practical.
- syntheticcdo 8y agoThe presenter was even careful to call them "locations" which annoyed me at the time as PR speak-- and then doubled down and said "someone sees their favorite country or location". Chinese propaganda, nothing to see here. The exact timestamp in the talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFTmQ27S7OQ&feature=youtu.be&t=6056 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFTmQ27S7OQ&feature=youtu.be...
- mamborambo 8y agoThe One China issue has long ago morphed from a rational point of consensus, into an irrational point of oppression. The attitude has changed drastically, when all the original members of those discussions have been replaced by next generations, and no one can remember the original concilliary tones of those meetings, and all that remains are misunderstandings -- that was how the splits between Catholics and Protestants, Sunnis and Shias, probably happened, and passed down in increasingly dogmatic interpretations.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- exabrial 8y agoGood? China needs to come to terms with reality. What's happening in the South China Sea is scary.
- threatofrain 8y agoBut the fact is from a consumer perspective, you'd actually want to know the difference between China, HK, and Taiwan. If a company said they offered tech support in China, would you assume that meant HK or Taiwan as well? I'd definitely inquire further. While the situation in HK may be evolving, Taiwan has been de facto independent for a long time, which changes things on the consumer-level. Assume at your own buyer's risk. For things like the Apple Watch, I would just double-check.
- zenexer 8y agoThe issue isn't that they were listed separately, rather that they weren't explicitly denoted as being part of China; for example, "Taiwan" vs. "Taiwan, China".
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- stcredzero 8y agoThe key points to know about the significance of Taiwan: Geography is still very significant. The potential for others to base aircraft and ships on Taiwan keeps China contained behind the South China Sea. Taiwan is a hard target for amphibious invasion, and amphibious invasions are hard to begin with. The seas around Taiwan are quite rough, and there are only two potential beaches for such a landing. The time frame friendly to such an operation is also quite limited. Basically, if China keeps on ramping up its blue water naval capabilities, some kind of confrontation is inevitable between the USA and China over the South China Sea and the US position as distant ally/hegemon to Korea, Japan, and other east Asian countries. China's Geographic Challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8uWoBtCkg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8uWoBtCkg8
- r00fus 8y agoNot while Trump is in power. Has Trump even staffed the open positions in the State dept?
- markhahn 8y agosometimes China is a dick. actually, a lot of the time: consider Xinjiang and Tibet. the fact that we can't afford to shun them as they deserve doesn't mean they're not being very, very naughty.
- forkLding 8y agoI'm fine if Taiwan declares independence but they should stop using the words "Republic of China" to represent themselves and to renounce their claim to mainland China, Taiwan isn't China and should never represent China, if they want to be treated as a separate nation, the first thing they should do is stop using the name of China.
- asfd23123213 8y agoRepublic of China does not mean what you think it means. Just like America does not mean the US exclusively. Ask any Latin American, and they will say the US stole the word America.
- CogitoCogito 8y agoIt is republic of mostly ethnically Chinese. Why would they need to change the name?
- forkLding 8y agoSo is Singapore and Hong Kong. Taiwan doesn't represent China. Republic of Macedonia recently changed their name because Greeks didn't want them to use Republic of Macedonia. If Taiwan wants to be Taiwan, they should change their name to Republic of Taiwan, just because Canada is majority English or German ethnicity doesn't mean its Republic of England. Also they should renounce their claim to the mainland, thats my biggest concern.
- CogitoCogito 8y agoJust so I'm clear, given that the PRC doesn't represent Taiwan or exercise any sovereignty over it, do you also believe that it should renounce its claims to Taiwan?
- forkLding 8y agoYes I don't care if Taiwan wants independence or not, I have good friends that are Taiwanese