11 ms·

Though I think apples "pro privacy" stance is likely just a happy accident I tend to agree. Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy.

• tomp 8y ago
  > Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy Huh? Isn't Linux (the original one, not derivates like Android) relatively private, while being completely open?
  • wycy 8y ago
    Sure, but on any decent phone, the only Linux you're going to get is Android.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • snaky 8y ago
      What's wrong with openness of Android flavour of Linux, called AOSP? Yes, the hardware drivers are mostly binary blobs, but there are many binary blob drivers for PC and other hardware on Linux.
    • rapnie 8y ago
      puri.sm Librem5 .. almost there.
  • gervase 8y ago
    I think the parent was implicitly referring to smartphone platforms. Certainly Linux is both the most open and most private option for general computing, which is probably why the parent was lamenting the fact that privacy and openness (in smartphones) are not tightly coupled.
  • smileysteve 8y ago
    Android itself is "open", but if you want to do much with it, you want it with Google Apps.
    • snaky 8y ago
      If by 'to do much with it' you mean asking the weather by voice, then yes. Otherwise, F-Droid provides open-source alternatives for many apps, and then many apps from Google Play Market actually work fine without Google Play Services.
  • MorrisofOrange 8y ago
    The discussion currently is about phones. You either have google's android which is open but sells your info or ios which is closed but private. Ive been saying for years we need a Linux for phones. I don't have the knowhow but I would gladly donate funds towards a system.
• emsy 8y ago
  Same here. Whenever I get caught up in some religious phone OS war I say I chose the platform I hate the least. I wish I could love my iPhone, but there are so many things wrong with it which could easily be solved without compromising anything product wise.
  • bayindirh 8y ago
    I'm asking this as a thought experiment, nothing personal. What if, fixing things the way you like breaks these features for someone else?
    • glogla 8y ago
      What would having headphone jack break?
      • arihant 8y ago
        Two things: 1. There's really no space for it, if you look at teardowns. So something took its place. 2. It does give better water resistance. Google the water resistance tests between iPhones and others. The difference is night and day in real world performance.
        • harshalizee 8y ago
          1. No. Teardowns have shown nothing of that sort. It's a marketing decision to push people to buy $170 airpods. In fact, there's a very popular tech blogger's video where he successfully adds in a headphone jack[1] to his iPhone 8. 2. No. Samsung phones are far more water resistant than iPhones are with a jack on it. I would love to see your links to said research. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfbE3_uAMA
          • dao- 8y ago
            Re: water resistance – Sony is pretty good there too, but last time I plunged my phone, the headphone jack itself was acting up until it had dried out. I guess there's no way around that. Edit: Oh, and when I broke my older model with saltwater, they replaced it. Twice.
• octosphere 8y ago
  Have you looked into CopperheadOS[1]? I would like to hear your thoughts on it. They even have a store where you can buy Pixel phones flashed with CopperheadOS. They're a bit pricey though ($1000+). I personally would rather flash it myself to save some money. [1] https://copperhead.co https://copperhead.co
  • subway 8y ago
    CopperheadOS is a very questionable choice these days. The author lost control of the company and was booted by the business tool. https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/8qdnn3/goodbye/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/8qdnn3/goodby...
    • ejo4041 8y ago
      Anything new on that front that you have heard? I remember the meltdown but haven't heard anything since. Looks like the business guy is just continuing to sell what they had and then no updates ever. Once people get sick of that, maybe the company just goes away?
      • subway 8y ago
        No clue. As I understand it, the author destroyed the signing keys, so updates aren't even possible. A fresh build with new signing keys would need to be flashed out of band.
      • aesh2Xa1 8y ago
        The original author stated his intent to fork and resume the project under a new name and with a new device set, but probably still the Pixel line.
        • monocasa 8y ago
          Didn't the license prevent forks?
• gvurrdon 8y ago
  There's nothing on the market now that I'd actually like to buy. Apple do seem to have some respect for privacy at the moment, but it's still a phone that scans the user's face (far too creepy for me) or makes it difficult to restrict outgoing connections (I'm not keen on apps connecting to flurry, facebook and so on).
  • jaegerpicker 8y ago
    iOS has fantastic support for ad blockers and network proxies that make it INCREDIBLY easy to block outgoing connections. In my experience it works far better than Androids version of that. Face tracking for faceId you can turn off but I agree it can be creepy. So far it's been limited to only on the device and encrypted so I've been ok with it but that's obviously a very personal choice.
    • leadingthenet 8y ago
      Could you please provide an example of these proxies that one could use to block outgoing connections? I'm only aware of Ad-blockers that do so for incoming ones.
      • kilo_bravo_3 8y ago
        The only solution I have found is to run an OpenVPN server at home and stay connected to it constantly. I lose a microscopically-minuscule amount of battery life, and a few percentage points of WAN throughput but it is worth it. I then have content rules on the firewall between the OpenVPN server and the Internet. As an added benefit, this makes the monitoring done by all cellphone providers (not just Verizon!) irrelevant because all they see is a constant, 24x7 stream of encrypted traffic to the same IP address.
      • pronoiac 8y ago
        Not OP, but Charles Proxy came to mind: https://www.charlesproxy.com/documentation/ios/ https://www.charlesproxy.com/documentation/ios/ I think it's come up here a few times, with various anecdotes about surfacing badly behaving apps.
• on_and_off 8y ago
  I am a senior app developer and I love some of the features that come with a smartphone (google photos often feels like magic) but I have got to admit, I am tempted to just dump my personal phone and only have one in a drawer to work on.
  • TACIXAT 8y ago
    Yea, I'm thinking of ditching my sim card or living mostly in airplane mode with wifi. I don't want to be part of a system where even the cell phone carriers are selling my real time location.
    • jstarfish 8y ago
      You do realize location tracking via wifi broadcasts (not even AP association!) is a thing, right? http://digitalmortar.com/overview-in-store-tracking-technology/ http://digitalmortar.com/overview-in-store-tracking-technolo... You'll be part of the system as long as you have a phone. (...and as long as you have a face, if projections are to be believed.)
      • TACIXAT 8y ago
        Yea, it's pretty awful. Beyond that you also have to trust that the phone is doing what it says (not broadcasting wifi beacons when wifi is off). A faraday caged messenger bag has been on my list for stuff to make. I've also been trying to think of an acceptable mask to wear in public and I saw someone on my train home with a mirrored face visor. [1] No time soon, but good to keep in mind. License plates are pretty bad too, photography in public is legal, so anyone could set up a dense enough camera network and track you everywhere you go via license plate. The most obvious case would be governments processing the video / images from cameras on traffic lights. 1. https://www.amazon.com/_/dp/B073WB4KSF https://www.amazon.com/_/dp/B073WB4KSF
• singularity2001 8y ago
  > Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy. That's a terribly wrong dichotomie
  • chc 8y ago
    What are you proposing as the real-world alternative?
  • konaraddio 8y ago
    It's true for smartphones. If you choose privacy AND open source then you're either making sacrifices or doing something "hacky". Most people want to have their mainstream apps available and don't want to learn how to install a new OS on an Android phone.
    • Yetanfou 8y ago
      ...but those who do get more privacy than those who try to buy their privacy from Apple. In other words, Apple is an option for those who a) don't want to learn and don't have access to someone who can do the job for them, who b) trust Apple when they say they will guard their privacy and c) can afford to make these choices. By the way, the time when installing an alternative Android distribution on your phone was 'hacky' is past for many devices, several distributions offer OTA updates so it is perfectly possible to run a mostly-open device without ever having to do anything 'hackish'. As to whether an always-on radio beacon transmitting your location to the authorities can ever be seen as a plus in a privacy context remains to be seen of course, that is something which can not be fixed by either AOSP or Apple.
    • david-cako 8y ago
      I.e., you wall yourself into your own garden that you aren't conceivably going to want to maintain and that no one cares to build apps for. iOS and Android are the choices. I say pick your poison. If a new choice comes along, I don't see any reason for the dynamics to be any different. People want high quality well-integrated electronics, and you only get that by being beholden to the manufacturer.
• floatboth 8y ago
  Any custom Android builds without installing google play services (possibly with microG if you still want some services like push, but with a FOSS client) are a great option. Sure that's niche, not mainstream. But, like, xda-developers is pretty popular. To the point of people making subreddits for making fun of custom ROM users whining about things like VoLTE not working: https://www.reddit.com/r/xdacirclejerk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/xdacirclejerk/
• AsyncAwait 8y ago
  > Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy.]] Sadly yes, which is why I backed the Librem 5 and hope it pans out, the promise of an open platform that respects your privacy is a really compelling one right now.
• lucideer 8y ago
  > Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy. One would have thought/hoped that they were tightly coupled. I think this comes down to two things: If we define "polish" as: consistency+predictable UX+aesthetics 1. openness involves interoperability, and polish is more expensive to achieve when interoperability is a requirement 2. the primary market for polish tends to value exclusivity, which—while not entirely contradictory to openness—tends towards non-openness The combination of these two means that when you focus on polish you end up with a product line that is likely to be non-open. The fact that the primary market for polish also tends to be economically comfortable also conveniently leads to margins that allow for privacy, but I think this is just a happy accident. It's my belief that if we want a private + open platform we need to: - Accept very large sacrifices* in polish because doing both is only economically viable when catering to a market that doesn't want/need openness - Choose a different economic model where resources are available to do both simultaneously. * Also worth noting that sacrificing quality and/or UX can lead to less privacy given that privacy depends on security and security depends on both quality, and also on UX to prevent social attacks.
  • ISL 8y ago
    I'd argue that the GNU/Unix text interface is open, interoperable, and highly polished. The key ingredient is time. Modern windowing systems are also very similar. A Windows 3.1 or early MacOS user would have no trouble using a computer today. Touch and phone interfaces will get there, too, as both software and culture evolve together. I can't wait for, and would love to support, the Debian of phone architectures. In past HN threads, it has been suggested to me that the real blocker for a good open phone OS is at the hardware/kernel level. That was the state of the hardware environment in the late nineties and early 2000s. Give it time, effort, and support, and a great and open OS will emerge.
    • danieldk 8y ago
      I can't wait for, and would love to support, the Debian of phone architectures. In past HN threads, it has been suggested to me that the real blocker for a good open phone OS is at the hardware/kernel level. That was the state of the hardware environment in the late nineties and early 2000s. I would like to be that optimistic, but I am not. The PC has always been a fundamentally open platform and hardware has been supported by many OSes for a long time. When I was young, we would run MS-DOS, DR-DOS, OS/2 and Windows 3.x (which was strictly spoken not an OS). After 1994 I also ran Linux and BSD and I never had any real problems hardware-wise. There was a difficult time around the turn of the century with WinModems and printers that only supported Windows. But that was more of a temporary regression.
• taurath 8y ago
  > Though I think apples "pro privacy" stance is likely just a happy accident I tend to agree. Don’t underestimate the lure of ad money, even to a company as large as Apple. They realize the second you start taking ad money your customers are no longer your customers, but your product.
  • riphay 8y ago
    I think his point about the "happy accident" is that iAds failed and that's part of why Apple is now "pro privacy."
    • nemothekid 8y ago
      This seems backwards though. iAds failed because Apple was pro-privacy - iAds targeting features essentially didn't exist because they didn't collect any data.
  • Scriptor 8y ago
    Yep, the saying is generally that if you don't pay for something, you're the product. But I've noticed that more and more, even when you do pay for something there's a good chance your data will still get sold.
    • reaperducer 8y ago
      Yep. See also: Every credit card transaction you make.
• Svoka 8y ago
  I think it's a strong selling point they repeat for last 3 years on every chance they get. Like how everything is done on device, encryption, nothing is stored on cloud and so on.
• rsync 8y ago
  "As it is today I can not buy a phone without having a deep bottomless disdain for it." I feel the same way, but I don't feel negatively about it. I have an iPhone and I treat it like a hostile/suspect device and that is working quite well for me. Apple has no idea who I am - I have never even typed my own name into the phone. Apple doesn't even know my phone number as my "real" phone number is one I control and forward to the burner SIM (straighttalk) that is in the phone. My actual phone provider (twilio) doesn't know who I am. Straighttalk doesn't know who I am - they got an assumed name and email address. Same for the very, very few apps that I use.[1] So unless Apple decides to acquire twilio and whatever verizon MVNO I am using this quarter and my credit card issuer, all they've got is Fakey McFakefake. None of this was difficult, aside from building my own carrier inside twilio, but that was fun. [1] Remember: VISA/MC do not verify names on purchases. The user interface strongly suggests that they do, but they do not - if you correctly enter your number/expiry/CVV/zipcode/etc., you can put in any old name you want. There is really no reason for any app to know your real name.
• solatic 8y ago
  > Either you choose a somewhat open platform, or you choose privacy Those who would give up essential Openness, to purchase a little temporary Privacy, deserve neither Openness nor Privacy. -Benjamin Franklin