8 ms·

Apparently it has “excellent views of Holloman AFB and White Sands Missile Range” (https://reddit.com/r/SpecialAccess/comments/9f91sm/_/e5uy1fd/?context=1 https

Apparently it has “excellent views of Holloman AFB and White Sands Missile Range” (https://reddit.com/r/SpecialAccess/comments/9f91sm/_/e5uy1fd/?context=1 https://reddit.com/r/SpecialAccess/comments/9f91sm/_/e5uy1fd...) . Further down, someone says that someone claims that the Chinese were using the antenna array at the observatory to spy on missile tests at WSMR. If the place was truly low on staff then this theory may not be so far fetched.

mr_overalls 8y ago
The views of the AFB and missile range are truly excellent. Google Maps panoramic view: https://goo.gl/ckkCQc https://goo.gl/ckkCQc
- subcosmos 8y ago
  That yagi-uda in the image makes it plausible that some form of sigint could be conducted there under the cover of mountain telescope operations.
- alanh 8y ago
  Sarcasm? I just see trees.
MisterTea 8y ago
Since it's just about abandoned it's quite possible that foreign agents covertly installed surveillance devices to monitor the nearby bases OR someone noticed something or saw someone trespassing. That would certainly explain that level of activity including a blackhawk.
RandomNick 8y ago
I'm skeptical of that theory. Sunspot is up in the Lincoln National Forest. There are multiple trails and locations that have a great view of White Sands and Holloman AFB, which are located in the basin below. There isn't anything special about the view from Sunspot that I can recall.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- subcosmos 8y ago
  Other than a big telescope great for looking at things far away? I used to work in astrophysics. Telescope operators are expected not to look in certain places. Those were fun conversations. My guess is they found a spy.
  - yasp 8y ago
    What kinds of places were you told not to look? (I'm guessing you couldn't physically point it at targets on the ground, so I assume certain sections of the sky.) Who was it that was commanding you not to look?
    - subcosmos 8y ago
      I won't elaborate. A neat book just came out though : Accessory to War: The Unspoken Alliance Between Astrophysics and the Military https://g.co/kgs/XdRZFu https://g.co/kgs/XdRZFu
      - projectileboy 8y ago
        Thanks for the link. I haven't seen the book, but I know when I took a computational physics class as an undergrad (~25 years ago), there was a definite overlap between the modeling necessary to understand stellar collapse, and the modeling necessary to build better nuclear weapons.
        linksnapzz 8y ago
        A late friend who worked on type II supernova simulations was once invited to talk about his team's software with some gentlemen at an NNSA lab, Los Alamos or Livermore or Sandia (I forget which one.) At the conclusion of the talk, the DOE guys said appreciative things about the current work, but also pointed out that certain avenues of investigation into certain characteristics might lead to the gov't declaring this software classified, and restricting who might have access to it. My friend was at the time not a US citizen, so he would have been locked out of contributing to his own work. "Nice piece of software you have there, would be a shame if something...happened to it..."
VLM 8y ago
The national RCS test facility is at Holloman, all kinds of interesting test pilot units out there as per the public website. If you pull the list of current NOTAMs for Holloman, normally the tower is part time but is open continuous from 10-sept to 14-sept. Must be busy. As per the NOTAMs they are also doing a lot of construction work at Holloman, heavy construction vehicles all over and wingspan limitations to avoid hitting them. My guess is the somewhat abandoned research facility will come off lockdown after the 14th. My understanding of the research facility is its in transition and likely unsecured; once its secured to some minimal level, law enforcement will ignore it when they're doing something "interesting" at Holloman. Or, when whatever test equipment they're installing at Holloman is covered by an opaque radome, they'll reopen the research facility.
- rfugger 8y ago
  What do RCS and NOTAM stand for? Also, is there a link where you can, as you say, "pull" this data, or is that from a non-public system? Thanks.
  - detaro 8y ago
    RCS = Radar Cross Section, so they are measuring how a plane appears on radar in various scenarios. NOTAM = Notice to Airmen, info bulletins about all kinds of things relevant to air traffic (from "this area is off limits temporarily" over "this airport has a broken navigation beacon" to "there's a festival here that's allowed to point lasers at the sky") EDIT: In the US can be fetched from https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/ https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/ – Location HMN is Holloman AFB
    - ams6110 8y ago
      You'll note that NOTAMs and also METARs (weather reports) are written in a very terse, heavily abbreviated syntax that seems to originate from teletype/telegraph days.
  - VLM 8y ago
    Another good google term is OSINT open source intelligence. One source says they've got THE number one national secret radar lab, what could be hurt by making that public? Another source admits the place is brimming over with test pilots. Another source says they're doing a massive heavy construction project. Another source says this is a period of high optempo for flying despite heavy construction limiting runway operations. A great place to observe the AFB, such as a semi-abandoned observatory, is under temporary lockdown. Note they're only locking down a great place to park a van full of radio observing gear, not locking down every little hiking trail where you can optically observe the base. Almost as if the AF base were a national secret radar lab; oh wait, it is, per their own public website and historical events. Individually nothing above is classified or "intel worthy" but in combination if it isn't a week long systems integration test for some kind of anti-aircraft radar experiment, they've gone to great lengths to make it appear in public to be so. And that's the whole OSINT thing in a nutshell. Comically, if they're not doing this kind of activity, you have to ask why not, since that kind of activity is why that publicly known national radar lab exists in the first place. I mean, if they're not doing what they're funded to do, that in itself is some kind of conspiracy theory. I suppose the whole thing could be a psyop to determine conspiracy theory susceptibility; have a known, public, radar lab, do radar lab things, and see who freaks out is a valid psyop experiment. Personally I think the HAARP project of the 90s was more of a psyop troll along the lines of the above, than an actual scientific study OR an actual conspiracy theory. Some scientific research did happen, but mostly I think they just wanted to F with Art Bell listeners and see how they respond. Of course, OSINT can be a diversion up to and including faking the whole thing by releasing a small number of cheap and easy irrelevant press releases and seeing which vans full of electronics equipment driven by foreign nationals sit in parking lots in sight of the base; its entirely possible literally nothing is going on inside the base, its all a counter-intel operation. A honeypot operation. Maybe some foreigner took the bait and drove up to the observatory surrounded by FBI agents with a van full of monitoring equipment, that would be an epic troll of a foreign intel agency, usually they keep that kind of thing quiet and we'll never hear. Possibly locking the place down and closing the post office and getting news coverage including here is a component of the counter-intel honeypot operation, LOL. OSINT is more of a method of analyzing seemingly unrelated data, than proving any hypothesis. But the OSINT synthesis of the situation boils down to "a known military radar lab appears to be extremely busy doing radar stuff this week".
LyndsySimon 8y ago
I've seen this repeated often, but it doesn't seem to be entirely true - it has an excellent view of White Sands National Monument, not the White Sands Missile Range, which is about 20 miles NNW.

mr_overalls 8y ago

The views of the AFB and missile range are truly excellent. Google Maps panoramic view: https://goo.gl/ckkCQc https://goo.gl/ckkCQc

subcosmos 8y ago
That yagi-uda in the image makes it plausible that some form of sigint could be conducted there under the cover of mountain telescope operations.
alanh 8y ago
Sarcasm? I just see trees.

MisterTea 8y ago

Since it's just about abandoned it's quite possible that foreign agents covertly installed surveillance devices to monitor the nearby bases OR someone noticed something or saw someone trespassing. That would certainly explain that level of activity including a blackhawk.

RandomNick 8y ago

I'm skeptical of that theory. Sunspot is up in the Lincoln National Forest. There are multiple trails and locations that have a great view of White Sands and Holloman AFB, which are located in the basin below. There isn't anything special about the view from Sunspot that I can recall.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
subcosmos 8y ago
Other than a big telescope great for looking at things far away? I used to work in astrophysics. Telescope operators are expected not to look in certain places. Those were fun conversations. My guess is they found a spy.
- yasp 8y ago
  What kinds of places were you told not to look? (I'm guessing you couldn't physically point it at targets on the ground, so I assume certain sections of the sky.) Who was it that was commanding you not to look?
  - subcosmos 8y ago
    I won't elaborate. A neat book just came out though : Accessory to War: The Unspoken Alliance Between Astrophysics and the Military https://g.co/kgs/XdRZFu https://g.co/kgs/XdRZFu
    - projectileboy 8y ago
      Thanks for the link. I haven't seen the book, but I know when I took a computational physics class as an undergrad (~25 years ago), there was a definite overlap between the modeling necessary to understand stellar collapse, and the modeling necessary to build better nuclear weapons.
      - linksnapzz 8y ago
        A late friend who worked on type II supernova simulations was once invited to talk about his team's software with some gentlemen at an NNSA lab, Los Alamos or Livermore or Sandia (I forget which one.) At the conclusion of the talk, the DOE guys said appreciative things about the current work, but also pointed out that certain avenues of investigation into certain characteristics might lead to the gov't declaring this software classified, and restricting who might have access to it. My friend was at the time not a US citizen, so he would have been locked out of contributing to his own work. "Nice piece of software you have there, would be a shame if something...happened to it..."

VLM 8y ago

The national RCS test facility is at Holloman, all kinds of interesting test pilot units out there as per the public website. If you pull the list of current NOTAMs for Holloman, normally the tower is part time but is open continuous from 10-sept to 14-sept. Must be busy. As per the NOTAMs they are also doing a lot of construction work at Holloman, heavy construction vehicles all over and wingspan limitations to avoid hitting them. My guess is the somewhat abandoned research facility will come off lockdown after the 14th. My understanding of the research facility is its in transition and likely unsecured; once its secured to some minimal level, law enforcement will ignore it when they're doing something "interesting" at Holloman. Or, when whatever test equipment they're installing at Holloman is covered by an opaque radome, they'll reopen the research facility.

rfugger 8y ago
What do RCS and NOTAM stand for? Also, is there a link where you can, as you say, "pull" this data, or is that from a non-public system? Thanks.
- detaro 8y ago
  RCS = Radar Cross Section, so they are measuring how a plane appears on radar in various scenarios. NOTAM = Notice to Airmen, info bulletins about all kinds of things relevant to air traffic (from "this area is off limits temporarily" over "this airport has a broken navigation beacon" to "there's a festival here that's allowed to point lasers at the sky") EDIT: In the US can be fetched from https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/ https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/ – Location HMN is Holloman AFB
  - ams6110 8y ago
    You'll note that NOTAMs and also METARs (weather reports) are written in a very terse, heavily abbreviated syntax that seems to originate from teletype/telegraph days.
- VLM 8y ago
  Another good google term is OSINT open source intelligence. One source says they've got THE number one national secret radar lab, what could be hurt by making that public? Another source admits the place is brimming over with test pilots. Another source says they're doing a massive heavy construction project. Another source says this is a period of high optempo for flying despite heavy construction limiting runway operations. A great place to observe the AFB, such as a semi-abandoned observatory, is under temporary lockdown. Note they're only locking down a great place to park a van full of radio observing gear, not locking down every little hiking trail where you can optically observe the base. Almost as if the AF base were a national secret radar lab; oh wait, it is, per their own public website and historical events. Individually nothing above is classified or "intel worthy" but in combination if it isn't a week long systems integration test for some kind of anti-aircraft radar experiment, they've gone to great lengths to make it appear in public to be so. And that's the whole OSINT thing in a nutshell. Comically, if they're not doing this kind of activity, you have to ask why not, since that kind of activity is why that publicly known national radar lab exists in the first place. I mean, if they're not doing what they're funded to do, that in itself is some kind of conspiracy theory. I suppose the whole thing could be a psyop to determine conspiracy theory susceptibility; have a known, public, radar lab, do radar lab things, and see who freaks out is a valid psyop experiment. Personally I think the HAARP project of the 90s was more of a psyop troll along the lines of the above, than an actual scientific study OR an actual conspiracy theory. Some scientific research did happen, but mostly I think they just wanted to F with Art Bell listeners and see how they respond. Of course, OSINT can be a diversion up to and including faking the whole thing by releasing a small number of cheap and easy irrelevant press releases and seeing which vans full of electronics equipment driven by foreign nationals sit in parking lots in sight of the base; its entirely possible literally nothing is going on inside the base, its all a counter-intel operation. A honeypot operation. Maybe some foreigner took the bait and drove up to the observatory surrounded by FBI agents with a van full of monitoring equipment, that would be an epic troll of a foreign intel agency, usually they keep that kind of thing quiet and we'll never hear. Possibly locking the place down and closing the post office and getting news coverage including here is a component of the counter-intel honeypot operation, LOL. OSINT is more of a method of analyzing seemingly unrelated data, than proving any hypothesis. But the OSINT synthesis of the situation boils down to "a known military radar lab appears to be extremely busy doing radar stuff this week".

LyndsySimon 8y ago

I've seen this repeated often, but it doesn't seem to be entirely true - it has an excellent view of White Sands National Monument, not the White Sands Missile Range, which is about 20 miles NNW.