4 ms·

> The entire point of art. 11 is to transfer money from Google News (and other aggregators, like Facebook) to publishers. This also covers search. Honestly, it

> The entire point of art. 11 is to transfer money from Google News (and other aggregators, like Facebook) to publishers. This also covers search. Honestly, it doesn't seem a bad thing to me. But lat's see how Google plays it out.

tomp 8y ago
It's "not bad" in the same way as communism is "not bad" - i.e. in theory, but it doesn't actually exist in practice.
- kazinator 8y ago
  Oh, some would say that communism is already despicable in theory alone.
dnautics 8y ago
You don't think this will eventually come to screw the little guy?
- vkou 8y ago
  Who is the little guy, and why are we optimizing for him, instead of making the world better for everyone? I mean, I think the link tax is backwards, but a vague emotional appeal to the health of... a mom and pop internet news site...(?) is not the argument I'd use.
  - Natanael_L 8y ago
    The little guy is duckduckgo, small forums and blogs. You think it's fine to erase them from the web if they try to comment on the news?
  - syn0byte 8y ago
    Optimize for the little guy so there can be growth. "Better for everyone" is stasis because "everyone" includes all the people that already have disproportional slices of pie.
    - geezerjay 8y ago
      To be fair, google and the like have been living off scraping third-party content and making it available in a way that only the scrapers see any traffic from that content, thus earn anything that is there to be earned. In this scenario, I'm not sure if society should encourage little mom and pop scrapers to spawn while leaving the people who actually created the content with any way to protect their work.
      - candiodari 8y ago
        The problem is that people don't want what (most of) the newspaper publishers are offering, they want smaller, broader, differently curated summaries of that. "Publishers" (newspapers) are 99% simply reprinting news they get from "the wire" (Reuters for example, or Bloomberg, or ...), or a few wire services. One way to look at Facebook and Google News is that they are better versions of these wires, available for end users of the content instead of just paying subscribers (Reuters' wire is a subscription service) The way it works is this: let's say I feel the need to put out a press release. I have an employee write the news (heavily favoring me) and "put out the press release", meaning I submit the article to a news agency [1], including image and text online, paying 35$ for the privilege of having it appear on the feeds newspapers use to put out news. This is why even the BBC is full of "researchers working for IBM have saved the world again". There are a number of issues. Of course 99% of the news is not exactly neutral or even a little bit researched, because it's just press releases. 1% is, but is produced by reporters working for the news agencies (only huge places like BBC still have their own reporters). And Google is a lot better than even the BBC (which is very high quality) at finding and presenting press releases to the public. Hell, it's actually better at deciding the trustworthiness of them than news desks (mostly because they, for profit reasons, refuse to give humans even half an hour to check things). Furthermore, those algorithms run so cheaply that they actually provide a personalized version of the news of the day based on both your interests and the news. I assume Jeff Bezos has the same service by a newspapers, but I imagine few others do. So the underlying issue newspapers are having is "Google automated and Facebook crowdsources what we do, and their automated algorithms are much more successful than our humans, please outlaw them". > To be fair, google and the like have been living off scraping third-party content and making it available in a way that only the scrapers see any traffic from that content, thus earn anything that is there to be earned. Yeah there is no value at all in having a searchable index, content summaries, and it's unfair that people get paid for that. Furthermore newspapers just use humans to do what Google news does with algorithms. Never mind that that's what people want. And as pointed out, people see more value in the aggregated, summarized and algorithmically curated versions of the same data. Did you ever use the phonebook ? Did it have ads or not ? Should we outlaw the phonebook too ? Did you ever use an encyclopedia or a dictionary ? Did you pay for it ? I feel like your argument has some shortcomings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    Internet is supposed to be THE free platform a mom and pop internet news site can prosper. You are, at this very moment, here in HN, in a mom and pop internet news site.
    - rrcaptain 8y ago
      Are you joking? HN is owned by YCombinator, one of the most powerful companies in the Valley. If it's Mom and Pop, than so is Mitt Romney's hedgefund.
      - adventured 8y ago
        Nothing fundamentally has changed about HN as Y Combinator has become more successful over time. Your premise pretends that both HN's long-term and initial success rests on the present riches of Y Combinator - that's false. HN runs on one server and is moderated by just a couple of people typically. It is in fact the definition of a mom & pop operation. It does not have a zillion dollar budget, either for operations or promoting itself. It doesn't need it, the value proposition is the content, community and standards. I can semi-trivially set up an HN clone for any given industry or concept. It'll be up to me to promote it and garner attention to it, however the point is that it's extremely inexpensive and easy (few regulations, hurdles, compliance issues, etc) to open up that type of expression platform. That's what the parent is referring to.
        rrcaptain 8y ago
        Mom & Pop, by definition, refers to the ownership of the medium. Not how many people work on it.
      - gnulinux 8y ago
        It's not about who the mom is, or whether she is a billionaire. HN is read mostly by tech workers, which is probably not more than 5% of US population and probably less than 1% of internet users. These numbers are out of my ass, but is there any indication that HN is mainstream media? HN is a niche media like my sister's blog.

tomp 8y ago

It's "not bad" in the same way as communism is "not bad" - i.e. in theory, but it doesn't actually exist in practice.

kazinator 8y ago
Oh, some would say that communism is already despicable in theory alone.

dnautics 8y ago

You don't think this will eventually come to screw the little guy?

vkou 8y ago
Who is the little guy, and why are we optimizing for him, instead of making the world better for everyone? I mean, I think the link tax is backwards, but a vague emotional appeal to the health of... a mom and pop internet news site...(?) is not the argument I'd use.
- Natanael_L 8y ago
  The little guy is duckduckgo, small forums and blogs. You think it's fine to erase them from the web if they try to comment on the news?
- syn0byte 8y ago
  Optimize for the little guy so there can be growth. "Better for everyone" is stasis because "everyone" includes all the people that already have disproportional slices of pie.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    To be fair, google and the like have been living off scraping third-party content and making it available in a way that only the scrapers see any traffic from that content, thus earn anything that is there to be earned. In this scenario, I'm not sure if society should encourage little mom and pop scrapers to spawn while leaving the people who actually created the content with any way to protect their work.
    - candiodari 8y ago
      The problem is that people don't want what (most of) the newspaper publishers are offering, they want smaller, broader, differently curated summaries of that. "Publishers" (newspapers) are 99% simply reprinting news they get from "the wire" (Reuters for example, or Bloomberg, or ...), or a few wire services. One way to look at Facebook and Google News is that they are better versions of these wires, available for end users of the content instead of just paying subscribers (Reuters' wire is a subscription service) The way it works is this: let's say I feel the need to put out a press release. I have an employee write the news (heavily favoring me) and "put out the press release", meaning I submit the article to a news agency [1], including image and text online, paying 35$ for the privilege of having it appear on the feeds newspapers use to put out news. This is why even the BBC is full of "researchers working for IBM have saved the world again". There are a number of issues. Of course 99% of the news is not exactly neutral or even a little bit researched, because it's just press releases. 1% is, but is produced by reporters working for the news agencies (only huge places like BBC still have their own reporters). And Google is a lot better than even the BBC (which is very high quality) at finding and presenting press releases to the public. Hell, it's actually better at deciding the trustworthiness of them than news desks (mostly because they, for profit reasons, refuse to give humans even half an hour to check things). Furthermore, those algorithms run so cheaply that they actually provide a personalized version of the news of the day based on both your interests and the news. I assume Jeff Bezos has the same service by a newspapers, but I imagine few others do. So the underlying issue newspapers are having is "Google automated and Facebook crowdsources what we do, and their automated algorithms are much more successful than our humans, please outlaw them". > To be fair, google and the like have been living off scraping third-party content and making it available in a way that only the scrapers see any traffic from that content, thus earn anything that is there to be earned. Yeah there is no value at all in having a searchable index, content summaries, and it's unfair that people get paid for that. Furthermore newspapers just use humans to do what Google news does with algorithms. Never mind that that's what people want. And as pointed out, people see more value in the aggregated, summarized and algorithmically curated versions of the same data. Did you ever use the phonebook ? Did it have ads or not ? Should we outlaw the phonebook too ? Did you ever use an encyclopedia or a dictionary ? Did you pay for it ? I feel like your argument has some shortcomings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency
- gnulinux 8y ago
  Internet is supposed to be THE free platform a mom and pop internet news site can prosper. You are, at this very moment, here in HN, in a mom and pop internet news site.
  - rrcaptain 8y ago
    Are you joking? HN is owned by YCombinator, one of the most powerful companies in the Valley. If it's Mom and Pop, than so is Mitt Romney's hedgefund.
    - adventured 8y ago
      Nothing fundamentally has changed about HN as Y Combinator has become more successful over time. Your premise pretends that both HN's long-term and initial success rests on the present riches of Y Combinator - that's false. HN runs on one server and is moderated by just a couple of people typically. It is in fact the definition of a mom & pop operation. It does not have a zillion dollar budget, either for operations or promoting itself. It doesn't need it, the value proposition is the content, community and standards. I can semi-trivially set up an HN clone for any given industry or concept. It'll be up to me to promote it and garner attention to it, however the point is that it's extremely inexpensive and easy (few regulations, hurdles, compliance issues, etc) to open up that type of expression platform. That's what the parent is referring to.
      - rrcaptain 8y ago
        Mom & Pop, by definition, refers to the ownership of the medium. Not how many people work on it.
    - gnulinux 8y ago
      It's not about who the mom is, or whether she is a billionaire. HN is read mostly by tech workers, which is probably not more than 5% of US population and probably less than 1% of internet users. These numbers are out of my ass, but is there any indication that HN is mainstream media? HN is a niche media like my sister's blog.