6 ms·

If I’m not allowed to use your service you won’t get any of my money though. Unlike kids under the age of 13 I have disposable income.

by ahakki 8y ago

pwned1 8y ago
It's looking more and more like your money isn't worth the compliance cost to companies to obtain your money.
- bad_user 8y ago
  Not that I agree with this copyright directive, it's horrible and I intend to find out which of my representatives supported it such that I can do something about it. But the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market and it is a common market in spite of legal and cultural differences between countries. So that's pretty naive. And if companies think the "compliance cost" is too big, that's fine, it means they are leaving money on the table for their competition to pick up. The best outcome is actually the EU getting some real alternatives to US services that are deemed to be indispensable. So personally, as an EU citizen, for companies no longer wanting to serve EU citizens, all I can say is don't let the door hit you on your way out.
  - owenversteeg 8y ago
    I too am an EU citizen, living in the Netherlands. I am also an American citizen and have lived there. Although I generally prefer the Dutch set of laws to the American, Dutch laws stifle innovation. The difference in even simple things like setting up a business, hiring an employee, and ensuring compliance with local laws is insane. Every time I go to America I get requests for random things that either don't exist in the Netherlands or are criminally expensive. Bengay cream here costs €16.20 for 57g, only available at special online shops. In America you can buy it everywhere, €5.84 for 113g. That's one example. You might criticize it for being too arcane, but there are hundreds of thousands. Each one of these things costs double the Amazon price or more for popular products: RAM, angle steel, many batteries, sanding belts, IEMs, pumps, permethrin, LEDs. That's just off the top of my head. Every time I need something it's a game: will I get lucky and pay 40% extra, or will it be only available for 200% the price? Or even worse, not available at all? You want to sell those things above? Go ahead. A few of them are even triple (!!!) the American retail price, so you'll make bank, right? Start a business. But you won't, and nobody else will, because it's tremendously difficult to start a business here. I can understand higher taxes make products more expensive - sure. Those taxes provide the benefits I enjoy in a country like the Netherlands. I can even deal with the cost of shipping from America. But I cannot deal with paying double or triple the cost for hundreds of thousands of various products. And laws like this just continue the movement in the wrong direction.
    - guitarbill 8y ago
      I'm sure I can find counter examples. Off the top of my head, aerosol deodorant is 1/3 in the UK vs US. Generic medicines, e.g. Aspirin, Paracetamol, or Ibuprofen are cheaper. Cheese. Basic shit. Seems like a bit of a straw-man argument anyway. Businesses don't usually pay consumer-oriented taxes like VAT (UK), or Mehrwertsteuer (DE). So which taxes are we talking about exactly? And importing stuff isn't too hard. If it was a truly Dutch issue, you'd set up the import business in another EU country, and then ship it to the Netherlands once it's inside the Union.
      - owenversteeg 8y ago
        I just checked and it appears Ibuprofen/Paracetamol are roughly 1 cent per pill in reasonable quantities for both sides of the pond. My quick Googling showed Amazon had them for slightly cheaper than British supermarkets in fact. After checking Walmart vs British supermarkets for decent quality cheese (and I'm fairly selective about my cheddar) I found the prices to be roughly equivalent. Prices for edible cheddar are far higher here in the Netherlands, by the way. I'll give you aerosol deodorant, but I think that comes down to a preference for stick deodorant in America - which costs approximately as much as British aerosol deodorant. That's one product; I named ten, and I can provide plenty more. The fundamental problem of not having access to many products for a reasonable price is a big one, and unfortunately I think Europeans just accept it. Look, I'm pro EU, and I'm not protesting the taxes we pay in the Netherlands. I think they go to a good cause, and I don't think high taxes make it impossible to start a business. But onerous regulations do. Shit like this just adds to the pile of things that a startup has to deal with, and eventually it's too much. I'm not saying that higher regulations are just a Dutch issue, by the way. I think it's a general European issue. I just picked the Netherlands because I live here and have personal experience with startups here (as well as in Germany.) I generally like the GDPR, but many details of it were moronic. I've visited hundreds of sites where you have to individually deselect each of hundreds of trackers. Is that legal? Nobody knows! The GDPR is a nightmare for startups: you've got tens of contradictory blog posts from legal experts saying different things, 28 individual country regulators involved... Even if your startup is very privacy-friendly, you still (probably - nobody knows for sure!) have to put up one of those ugly big GDPR-walls to every EU visitor, which messes up your user experience and turns people away.
  - snaky 8y ago
    That's very feasible actually. If someone think YouTube is indispensable, China proved it wrong.
  - mrep 8y ago
    > But the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market What metric are you using because the EUs GDP is about 700 billion less than the US and going to drop even more when the UK leaves. US GDP: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=55&pr.y=9&sy=2017&ey=2018&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=111&s=NGDPD%2CPPPGDP%2CNGDPDPC%2CPPPPC&grp=0&a= http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weor... EU GDP: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=50&pr.y=7&sy=2017&ey=2018&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=998&s=NGDPD%2CPPPGDP%2CPPPPC&grp=1&a=1 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weor...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market Except it isn't really a single market. Each country has a unique language, culture and body of law. The cost of taking a German product to France is much higher than expanding from California to Texas and New York. (California, Texas and New York having a higher combined GDP than France and Germany [1].) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states...
- arnvald 8y ago
  Any examples, beyond news sites where 95% of users come from US anyway?
  - pwned1 8y ago
    I'm an attorney and I've gotten lots of small business owners asking me about GDPR compliance. It's simple in theory -- just disclose your policies, let people delete their data, etc. The mechanics of compliance aren't really the issue. It's concern about enforcement and the uncertainty of it. After I explain jurisdictional issues and the fact that enforcement of GDPR against a purely US-based company is completely untested (and probably not even possible), most just reply "fuck it, we'll just not sell to anyone in Europe." I agree with the basic concept of GDPR, but the uncertainty around it, the seemingly unclear nature of what exactly it means, and the fact that it will be enforced by each individual EU member potentially differently, all adds up. It's just not worth it. This just adds to the pile, in a BIG way
- draw_down 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17968398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17968398
sbarker 8y ago
I know an 11yo that just spent $100 on fortnite.

If I’m not allowed to use your service you won’t get any of my money though. Unlike kids under the age of 13 I have disposable income.

by ahakki 8y ago

If I’m not allowed to use your service you won’t get any of my money though. Unlike kids under the age of 13 I have disposable income.

pwned1 8y ago

It's looking more and more like your money isn't worth the compliance cost to companies to obtain your money.

bad_user 8y ago
Not that I agree with this copyright directive, it's horrible and I intend to find out which of my representatives supported it such that I can do something about it. But the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market and it is a common market in spite of legal and cultural differences between countries. So that's pretty naive. And if companies think the "compliance cost" is too big, that's fine, it means they are leaving money on the table for their competition to pick up. The best outcome is actually the EU getting some real alternatives to US services that are deemed to be indispensable. So personally, as an EU citizen, for companies no longer wanting to serve EU citizens, all I can say is don't let the door hit you on your way out.
- owenversteeg 8y ago
  I too am an EU citizen, living in the Netherlands. I am also an American citizen and have lived there. Although I generally prefer the Dutch set of laws to the American, Dutch laws stifle innovation. The difference in even simple things like setting up a business, hiring an employee, and ensuring compliance with local laws is insane. Every time I go to America I get requests for random things that either don't exist in the Netherlands or are criminally expensive. Bengay cream here costs €16.20 for 57g, only available at special online shops. In America you can buy it everywhere, €5.84 for 113g. That's one example. You might criticize it for being too arcane, but there are hundreds of thousands. Each one of these things costs double the Amazon price or more for popular products: RAM, angle steel, many batteries, sanding belts, IEMs, pumps, permethrin, LEDs. That's just off the top of my head. Every time I need something it's a game: will I get lucky and pay 40% extra, or will it be only available for 200% the price? Or even worse, not available at all? You want to sell those things above? Go ahead. A few of them are even triple (!!!) the American retail price, so you'll make bank, right? Start a business. But you won't, and nobody else will, because it's tremendously difficult to start a business here. I can understand higher taxes make products more expensive - sure. Those taxes provide the benefits I enjoy in a country like the Netherlands. I can even deal with the cost of shipping from America. But I cannot deal with paying double or triple the cost for hundreds of thousands of various products. And laws like this just continue the movement in the wrong direction.
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    I'm sure I can find counter examples. Off the top of my head, aerosol deodorant is 1/3 in the UK vs US. Generic medicines, e.g. Aspirin, Paracetamol, or Ibuprofen are cheaper. Cheese. Basic shit. Seems like a bit of a straw-man argument anyway. Businesses don't usually pay consumer-oriented taxes like VAT (UK), or Mehrwertsteuer (DE). So which taxes are we talking about exactly? And importing stuff isn't too hard. If it was a truly Dutch issue, you'd set up the import business in another EU country, and then ship it to the Netherlands once it's inside the Union.
    - owenversteeg 8y ago
      I just checked and it appears Ibuprofen/Paracetamol are roughly 1 cent per pill in reasonable quantities for both sides of the pond. My quick Googling showed Amazon had them for slightly cheaper than British supermarkets in fact. After checking Walmart vs British supermarkets for decent quality cheese (and I'm fairly selective about my cheddar) I found the prices to be roughly equivalent. Prices for edible cheddar are far higher here in the Netherlands, by the way. I'll give you aerosol deodorant, but I think that comes down to a preference for stick deodorant in America - which costs approximately as much as British aerosol deodorant. That's one product; I named ten, and I can provide plenty more. The fundamental problem of not having access to many products for a reasonable price is a big one, and unfortunately I think Europeans just accept it. Look, I'm pro EU, and I'm not protesting the taxes we pay in the Netherlands. I think they go to a good cause, and I don't think high taxes make it impossible to start a business. But onerous regulations do. Shit like this just adds to the pile of things that a startup has to deal with, and eventually it's too much. I'm not saying that higher regulations are just a Dutch issue, by the way. I think it's a general European issue. I just picked the Netherlands because I live here and have personal experience with startups here (as well as in Germany.) I generally like the GDPR, but many details of it were moronic. I've visited hundreds of sites where you have to individually deselect each of hundreds of trackers. Is that legal? Nobody knows! The GDPR is a nightmare for startups: you've got tens of contradictory blog posts from legal experts saying different things, 28 individual country regulators involved... Even if your startup is very privacy-friendly, you still (probably - nobody knows for sure!) have to put up one of those ugly big GDPR-walls to every EU visitor, which messes up your user experience and turns people away.
- snaky 8y ago
  That's very feasible actually. If someone think YouTube is indispensable, China proved it wrong.
- mrep 8y ago
  > But the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market What metric are you using because the EUs GDP is about 700 billion less than the US and going to drop even more when the UK leaves. US GDP: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=55&pr.y=9&sy=2017&ey=2018&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=111&s=NGDPD%2CPPPGDP%2CNGDPDPC%2CPPPPC&grp=0&a= http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weor... EU GDP: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?pr.x=50&pr.y=7&sy=2017&ey=2018&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=998&s=NGDPD%2CPPPGDP%2CPPPPC&grp=1&a=1 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2018/01/weodata/weor...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > the EU, as a whole, is the world's biggest market Except it isn't really a single market. Each country has a unique language, culture and body of law. The cost of taking a German product to France is much higher than expanding from California to Texas and New York. (California, Texas and New York having a higher combined GDP than France and Germany [1].) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states...
arnvald 8y ago
Any examples, beyond news sites where 95% of users come from US anyway?
- pwned1 8y ago
  I'm an attorney and I've gotten lots of small business owners asking me about GDPR compliance. It's simple in theory -- just disclose your policies, let people delete their data, etc. The mechanics of compliance aren't really the issue. It's concern about enforcement and the uncertainty of it. After I explain jurisdictional issues and the fact that enforcement of GDPR against a purely US-based company is completely untested (and probably not even possible), most just reply "fuck it, we'll just not sell to anyone in Europe." I agree with the basic concept of GDPR, but the uncertainty around it, the seemingly unclear nature of what exactly it means, and the fact that it will be enforced by each individual EU member potentially differently, all adds up. It's just not worth it. This just adds to the pile, in a BIG way
draw_down 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17968398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17968398

sbarker 8y ago

I know an 11yo that just spent $100 on fortnite.