4 ms·

There is far too much government subsidy, loans should be much harder to get.

by Carlton87 8y ago

oh-kumudo 8y ago
College is essentially free for many european countries, that is what I think sufficient level of subsidy
- parsnips 8y ago
  "free": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_debt_crisis
  - hoppelhase 8y ago
    What does this has to do with college prices? I've studied CS 3.5 years for ~550€ per year (around $700). This includes free public transportation, but excludes an apartment. In Germany, you can get a gov. funded student loan which can go up to ~750€ per Month. You have to pay back only the half of that. The 750€/Month is the highest amount that you can get. But you get it only if you have to pay the health insurance yourself, which is ~90€/Month. Otherwise, the maximum amount ~650€/Month. What you can get depends on the income of your parents. If your parents earn a lot of money, you get less. What you have to pay back is capped to 10000€ in total, free of interest. So if you get more than 20000€ in total, you still have to pay back only 10000€. You even get a discount on that if you pay back early. If you are taking this loan, your maximum debt is 10000€ (to be repaid only after the receiver exceeds a certain income level after graduation). You don't get it forever, though. It is limited to 3-5 years, depending on what you study. It is called Bafög: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesausbildungsförderungsg... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_financial_aid_(Germany) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_financial_aid_(Germa... I'd consider this as "free enough".
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > College is essentially free for many european countries, that is what I think sufficient level of subsidy Most of the countries which people usually talk about here - France, Germany, Spain, etc. - have significantly lower matriculation and graduation rates than the US does.
  - hoppelhase 8y ago
    Could you point me to some numbers?
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_...
  - dnomad 8y ago
    No they don't. Where do you even come up with such obvious nonsense?
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > No they don't. Where do you even come up with such obvious nonsense? The numbers are right there on Wikipedia. Maybe look them up before you call it "obvious nonsense".
      - dnomad 8y ago
        It's obvious nonsense to anybody who's taken even a moment to understand what those numbers mean. Here's a very, very simple chart that shows population with tertiary education [1]. The US is not significantly above other countries where education is paid for by the government. What's more is that those numbers are very generous to the US because, as everybody knows, most private colleges in the US are shit. So called "non-selective schools" as well as the straight up for-profits and the religious schools will take anybody that applies and hand them a degree in 2-4 years. Like much of the nonsense about free markets etc in this thread there's little understanding of actual facts. The American education situation exactly parallels healthcare: other OECD countries are able to provide better service for less cost by having the government direct the resources. But, yes, somehow we need to get the government out of education. That will surely fix everything. (Though serious people know full well what will happen if the government stops funding higher education. Graduation rates will plummet and within a generation advanced education will abandon middle America. The rich, highly educated coasts will do just fine. The real question is, as always, whether the ideologues are committed enough to cut their children throats in the name of their god, the free market. Then again we already see rapidly decreasing graduation rates in America [2] and the increasing prevalence for worthless degrees from shitty schools so I guess we already know the answer that one.) [1] https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decreasing_graduation_completion_rates_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decreasing_graduation_completi...

There is far too much government subsidy, loans should be much harder to get.

oh-kumudo 8y ago

College is essentially free for many european countries, that is what I think sufficient level of subsidy

parsnips 8y ago
"free": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_debt_crisis
- hoppelhase 8y ago
  What does this has to do with college prices? I've studied CS 3.5 years for ~550€ per year (around $700). This includes free public transportation, but excludes an apartment. In Germany, you can get a gov. funded student loan which can go up to ~750€ per Month. You have to pay back only the half of that. The 750€/Month is the highest amount that you can get. But you get it only if you have to pay the health insurance yourself, which is ~90€/Month. Otherwise, the maximum amount ~650€/Month. What you can get depends on the income of your parents. If your parents earn a lot of money, you get less. What you have to pay back is capped to 10000€ in total, free of interest. So if you get more than 20000€ in total, you still have to pay back only 10000€. You even get a discount on that if you pay back early. If you are taking this loan, your maximum debt is 10000€ (to be repaid only after the receiver exceeds a certain income level after graduation). You don't get it forever, though. It is limited to 3-5 years, depending on what you study. It is called Bafög: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesausbildungsförderungsg... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_financial_aid_(Germany) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_financial_aid_(Germa... I'd consider this as "free enough".
chimeracoder 8y ago
> College is essentially free for many european countries, that is what I think sufficient level of subsidy Most of the countries which people usually talk about here - France, Germany, Spain, etc. - have significantly lower matriculation and graduation rates than the US does.
- hoppelhase 8y ago
  Could you point me to some numbers?
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_...
- dnomad 8y ago
  No they don't. Where do you even come up with such obvious nonsense?
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    > No they don't. Where do you even come up with such obvious nonsense? The numbers are right there on Wikipedia. Maybe look them up before you call it "obvious nonsense".
    - dnomad 8y ago
      It's obvious nonsense to anybody who's taken even a moment to understand what those numbers mean. Here's a very, very simple chart that shows population with tertiary education [1]. The US is not significantly above other countries where education is paid for by the government. What's more is that those numbers are very generous to the US because, as everybody knows, most private colleges in the US are shit. So called "non-selective schools" as well as the straight up for-profits and the religious schools will take anybody that applies and hand them a degree in 2-4 years. Like much of the nonsense about free markets etc in this thread there's little understanding of actual facts. The American education situation exactly parallels healthcare: other OECD countries are able to provide better service for less cost by having the government direct the resources. But, yes, somehow we need to get the government out of education. That will surely fix everything. (Though serious people know full well what will happen if the government stops funding higher education. Graduation rates will plummet and within a generation advanced education will abandon middle America. The rich, highly educated coasts will do just fine. The real question is, as always, whether the ideologues are committed enough to cut their children throats in the name of their god, the free market. Then again we already see rapidly decreasing graduation rates in America [2] and the increasing prevalence for worthless degrees from shitty schools so I guess we already know the answer that one.) [1] https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decreasing_graduation_completion_rates_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decreasing_graduation_completi...