9 ms·

The Marriage Decision: Everything Forever or Nothing Ever Again (2016)

74 points by rerx 8y ago

radiantswirl 8y ago
I found this article to have zero value and zero cogent information because he boils the whole thing down to “gut check” (instinct — no real information here) plus “dealbreakers” (a nebulous category that he makes clear is always changing for everyone so there’s not really any useful info there either). This reads like a long hemming and hawing written by some dude who probably shouldn’t marry his partner but he’s trying to convince himself it’s a good idea and seek validation for his bad decision by writing a long abstract post justifying it. Pro tip to the author, if your relationship prompts you to write a long article justifying your decision-making process about whether or not to marry your partner, then your partner has failed the gut check and you shouldn’t marry them. 4/10 article, interesting concepts but zero actionable or new info that isn’t already common/universal knowledge in western societies. It’s also just plain weird that he would write an article that long which is clearly based on his life experiences but not share any of his specific life experiences or anything about him. Maybe he thinks subtracting the self from the article makes it “more universally applicable,” but really his decision not to include any info about his personal relationship history just makes it less relatable and thus FAR less applicable to anyone.
01100011 8y ago
<Ctrl-f>divorce Hmm.. no mentions in the entire article? I think the author has something to address. Keep in mind when you get legally married you are signing a legal contract that entitles that other person, in most states, to half of everything you earn during the marriage. They also earn an entitlement to continue that support for something like half the duration of the marriage, or more, if the marriage falls apart. I spent 19 years married in California to a spouse to refused to work for the final 10 years of the marriage. I now have to pay $40k/year indefinitely after losing half my savings and retirement. I had to sell my home to pay her share. Now, on the flip side I have a girlfriend who is half my age and I'm finally free of my ex which is worth every penny, but starting over at 42 just sucks. The state has no concept of a spouse refusing to work. They assume that because she wasn't working it must have been my decision to force that upon her. By the way, we don't have kids. My friends who have divorced with kids? $7k+/month. It is especially important to keep this in mind if you are a well paid earner. I know a lot of engineers making big bucks who let their spouses stay home or pursue goofy home based businesses or careers as 'artists'.
- jarsin 8y ago
  > Keep in mind when you get legally married you are signing a legal contract that entitles that other person, in most states, to half of everything you earn during the marriage. And keep in mind through the magic of commingling they will probably get half of whatever you had before the marriage too. Good luck keeping it's status as separate property.
  - 01100011 8y ago
    Depends on your forensic accountant... but did I mention how much forensic accountants cost? :) Basically in a divorce you are fucked unless you can keep everything amicable and do it via mediation. Otherwise you will either lose all your money to the other party or to the legal system. That was my choice - I could have paid less alimony but I would have had to spend $100k in legal fees for a chance that I'd get a sympathetic judge and things would go my way.
    - lwhalen 8y ago
      In a divorce, if you are a man, you are fucked. Especially in CA. Important distinction, just saying ;-)
    - mirimir 8y ago
      I guess that I've been lucky. I've been divorced twice, and the idea of alimony never came up. So I at least chose well enough to avoid that pitfall ;) Honestly, if my wives (and near-wives) hadn't raised the issue of marriage, I would have never considered it. But then, I've never wanted kids. Edit: clarification
      - poulsbohemian 8y ago
        I'm curious what country / state you are in, as many places have mandatory guidelines for this kind of thing.
        mirimir 8y ago
dbcurtis 8y ago
The "deal breakers" checklist skirts the true issue. I have been married longer than most HN members have been alive, which is no accident. So I'll temporarily be arrogant enough say my peace on the theory that someone might find it useful, and then duck and cover. There really is only one thing that matters: You and your partner must share the same value system, or at least if not identical, then there must not be core values in conflict. Why? If you agree on core values, then any disagreements (and there will be many) will be about implementation, not about the desired end state. Those are healthy discussions, even if stressful. It is possible to both be "on the same side of the problem" -- it is the two of you against the problem, and the disagreement is about how to get from point A to point B. On the other hand, when a core value is in conflict, the only way one person can be happy is if the other person gives up a part of themselves. That is at the very least the seed of resentment, and can't help but be a wound that will not heal. So.. Step 1: Clarify in your own mind your own values. Until you have done that, you have nothing to go on. Step 2: Get to know your potential partner well enough that you both understand each other's core values. Make sure they are compatible. I wish I could say I did this, but in all honesty I had been married for 20 years before I understood it. I just happened to get lucky -- growing up under similar circumstances as my bride has given us common touchstones.
- Diederich 8y ago
  I've been married about 19 years, and I think I'm clear on what you're saying. But I haven't heard it put quite this way. Can you cite some concrete examples of these values, and, perhaps, common ways that an otherwise seemingly compatible couple might not share them? Thanks.
  - umvi 8y ago
    Person A is religious and values spiritual growth. Person A wants their kids to believe in God and develop spiritually. Person B is atheist and thinks religion is a crock. Person B wants their kids to reject religion and flush spirituality down the toilet. Person B is willing to let A go to church on Sundays to make the relationship work since B is attracted to A. But there will probably be big problems with this over time, especially if kids come into the picture.
homonculus1 8y ago
I have trouble understanding why people buckle to social pressure in this day and age. If you aren't Amish or JW risking your entire livelihood and social circle... is it really that hard to tell you're relatives you just aren't ready to be married?
- mirimir 8y ago
  In most of the US, if a relationship lasts long enough, it doesn't matter much whether you "get married" or not. As far as the state's concerned, you are legally married.
  - pmiller2 8y ago
    What are you referring to? Common law marriage? That’s only valid in 8 states and DC (California is not one of those states, FYI). Edit: Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, and the District of Columbia are the only US districts where one can enter into a common law marriage today. Such marriages are, of course, recognized by other states, but you won’t end up “accidentally” married by doing nothing in New York, for instance.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      OK, I stand corrected.[0] But then, in California there's "palimony",[1] so it's iffy. I guess the lesson is to research the applicable legal environment. 0) https://www.cadivorce.com/news/common-law-marriage-myths/ https://www.cadivorce.com/news/common-law-marriage-myths/ 1) https://www.cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/spousal-support/what-is-a-palimony-or-marvin-claim/ https://www.cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/spousal-s...
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      Add Washington state to your list. There is case law here whereby if you live together or demonstrate that you are in a domestic partnership, you can be liable for spousal support, using the same guidelines as divorce. And this is without signing any documents or anything “official” to mark the partnership. Edit: in fact, to make this even more messed up - Washington state had a domestic partnership law, then got rid of it. So now there is a giant legal grey area where the courts have basically said “we know it when we see it.”
somberi 8y ago
To quote the comedian Chris Rock: You have two choices. Single and lonely. Married and bored. Ain't no happiness anywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6X0Qqxx3f0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6X0Qqxx3f0
djrogers 8y ago
> I’m not an expert on this, nor am I married—but I’ve read a lot about it Ooookaaaay.... Sorry, but you have lost what little credibility you might have had right there.
- black6 8y ago
  That’s where I stopped reading, too.
woodandsteel 8y ago
Lot of interesting ideas here. I would just add a few points. On listening to your gut when you are a brain person, this is actually trainable, check out the book Focusing by the University of Chicago psychologist and philosopher Eugene Gendlin. On deciding, it seems to me the two most important things are if the two of you have reasonably common values about how you want to live your lives, and if you trust the other person's moral character and ability to act rationally, at least when it comes to something really important. If the two of you have these, then you can probably work out the difficulties. Thirdly, you stand a much better chance of settling problems small and large if you take a course in interpersonal relationship and conflict resolution skills. See for instance Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. Lastly, you need to have some larger philosophy or religion to keep things in perspective and as basis for personal value beyond how much your mate loves you, otherwise you will either be their puppet or try to be their master.
- tomcam 8y ago
  Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg changed the way I thought. However, it, ah, doesn't matter at all if both parties don't buy in.
azernik 8y ago
> Society, in most parts of the world, doesn’t like when a relationship lasts too long. To society, a relationship is simply a testing ground—an incubator that prepares you for The Decision. And if too many years go by in a relationship without The Decision being made, society decides that something must be wrong. To help right the wrong, society will begin to apply pressure on the couple, from all angles. In polyamorous circles, this is called the "relationship escalator" - the idea that a relationship must escalate up to marriage or be considered a failure. In the polyamorous context this is considered a fallacy, because you can still have another live-in, child-raising relationship while this one ceases to escalate; but in a monogamous context there are real reasons to "fish or cut bait" other than just social pressure. If you're looking to have a married-and-settled-down life and that's not happening with the current partner, you need to pursue that end-state with someone else, and monogamy requires you to break up the non-escalating relationship before you can do that.
hardwaresofton 8y ago
This is the kind of thing everyone should think through post-highschool/college/in their 20s -- glad someone's written it out. I would love another guide/write-up like this for friendship -- it seems like people my age (late 20s/early 30s) and younger are in this world where "friendship" means so little (as used by Facebook) and yet so much (as used by your actual friends who you make efforts to see and enjoy spending time with). Finding people that have actively thought through many of life's quandaries (should you eat meat? how should governments be run? what do you want out of life?) and have formed opinions backed by mostly fact but who are ready to change in the presence of new data is so difficult though. I have a hunch I'm not looking in the right places but even in my late 20s I run into so many people who just haven't thought about most of the important shit and are just looking to glob onto someone for the rest of their life. Like sure, listening to music and digesting memes is great, but if you can't align or at least come to reasoned disagreement with your partner on shit that really matters, what is everyone doing.
rayiner 8y ago
It's interesting to me that people in the U.S. (maybe all the West, I just have experience with the U.S.) spend so much effort trying to find a marriage partner. But it does not appear to me that folks are happier in their marriages than in countries where some form of arranged marriage (not necessarily a "big A" arranged marriage, but maybe a "little A" arranged marriage) is common. I suspect: 1) We're not special and in fact there are a wide range of people we'd be relatively happy being married to; 2) It does not take that long to figure out whether our partner falls into bucket (1); 3) To the extent that initially happy marriages sour, it's because of changed circumstances, and there is little you can do at step (1) to prevent those.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Strongest possible agree. My wife and I were together for 3 weeks before we eloped in Reno (we both broke up with previous partners to be together). We're celebrating our 20th in a couple weeks. And for about half that time we've also worked together. There's a dude on this thread who has apparently been married longer than I've been alive and my 20 years makes me a marriage piker, but I suspect the real secret is that a marriage is something you build, not something you discover in some godawful dating treasure hunt.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Congrats!!
jancsika 8y ago
Just marry someone who a) deals with their shit and b) doesn't drive you crazy. If you're not sure your love interest is doing "a", find a mouthy asshole you trust and mention things about your relationship to them. If they don't convincingly criticize your love interest (or you) then you're probably ok to get married. If you don't yet know what drives you crazy: stop. You are too young to get married.
cm2012 8y ago
Some quick stats on marriage in a cynical thread: 1) Only 40% of marriages end in divorce these days. 2) Divorced people are much more likely to divorce multiple times, so first marriage success rate is closer to 75%. 3) In job cross splits, software developers have much lower divorce rates than the general pop. As an unmarried HN reader, you probably have a an 80% chance of lifelong marriage.
- 01100011 8y ago
  Just anecdotal evidence, but during my divorce 2 other SW engineers I know also got divorced and another one asked me for advice on how to get it started. I know lots of SW guys with stories of horrible divorces and insane legal bills which took decades to pay off. Maybe it's because I'm in Southern California where the divorce rate is something like 75%.

74 points by rerx 8y ago

I found this article to have zero value and zero cogent information because he boils the whole thing down to “gut check” (instinct — no real information here) plus “dealbreakers” (a nebulous category that he makes clear is always changing for everyone so there’s not really any useful info there either). This reads like a long hemming and hawing written by some dude who probably shouldn’t marry his partner but he’s trying to convince himself it’s a good idea and seek validation for his bad decision by writing a long abstract post justifying it. Pro tip to the author, if your relationship prompts you to write a long article justifying your decision-making process about whether or not to marry your partner, then your partner has failed the gut check and you shouldn’t marry them. 4/10 article, interesting concepts but zero actionable or new info that isn’t already common/universal knowledge in western societies. It’s also just plain weird that he would write an article that long which is clearly based on his life experiences but not share any of his specific life experiences or anything about him. Maybe he thinks subtracting the self from the article makes it “more universally applicable,” but really his decision not to include any info about his personal relationship history just makes it less relatable and thus FAR less applicable to anyone.

01100011 8y ago

<Ctrl-f>divorce Hmm.. no mentions in the entire article? I think the author has something to address. Keep in mind when you get legally married you are signing a legal contract that entitles that other person, in most states, to half of everything you earn during the marriage. They also earn an entitlement to continue that support for something like half the duration of the marriage, or more, if the marriage falls apart. I spent 19 years married in California to a spouse to refused to work for the final 10 years of the marriage. I now have to pay $40k/year indefinitely after losing half my savings and retirement. I had to sell my home to pay her share. Now, on the flip side I have a girlfriend who is half my age and I'm finally free of my ex which is worth every penny, but starting over at 42 just sucks. The state has no concept of a spouse refusing to work. They assume that because she wasn't working it must have been my decision to force that upon her. By the way, we don't have kids. My friends who have divorced with kids? $7k+/month. It is especially important to keep this in mind if you are a well paid earner. I know a lot of engineers making big bucks who let their spouses stay home or pursue goofy home based businesses or careers as 'artists'.

jarsin 8y ago
> Keep in mind when you get legally married you are signing a legal contract that entitles that other person, in most states, to half of everything you earn during the marriage. And keep in mind through the magic of commingling they will probably get half of whatever you had before the marriage too. Good luck keeping it's status as separate property.
- 01100011 8y ago
  Depends on your forensic accountant... but did I mention how much forensic accountants cost? :) Basically in a divorce you are fucked unless you can keep everything amicable and do it via mediation. Otherwise you will either lose all your money to the other party or to the legal system. That was my choice - I could have paid less alimony but I would have had to spend $100k in legal fees for a chance that I'd get a sympathetic judge and things would go my way.
  - lwhalen 8y ago
    In a divorce, if you are a man, you are fucked. Especially in CA. Important distinction, just saying ;-)
  - mirimir 8y ago
    I guess that I've been lucky. I've been divorced twice, and the idea of alimony never came up. So I at least chose well enough to avoid that pitfall ;) Honestly, if my wives (and near-wives) hadn't raised the issue of marriage, I would have never considered it. But then, I've never wanted kids. Edit: clarification
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      I'm curious what country / state you are in, as many places have mandatory guidelines for this kind of thing.
      - mirimir 8y ago

dbcurtis 8y ago

The "deal breakers" checklist skirts the true issue. I have been married longer than most HN members have been alive, which is no accident. So I'll temporarily be arrogant enough say my peace on the theory that someone might find it useful, and then duck and cover. There really is only one thing that matters: You and your partner must share the same value system, or at least if not identical, then there must not be core values in conflict. Why? If you agree on core values, then any disagreements (and there will be many) will be about implementation, not about the desired end state. Those are healthy discussions, even if stressful. It is possible to both be "on the same side of the problem" -- it is the two of you against the problem, and the disagreement is about how to get from point A to point B. On the other hand, when a core value is in conflict, the only way one person can be happy is if the other person gives up a part of themselves. That is at the very least the seed of resentment, and can't help but be a wound that will not heal. So.. Step 1: Clarify in your own mind your own values. Until you have done that, you have nothing to go on. Step 2: Get to know your potential partner well enough that you both understand each other's core values. Make sure they are compatible. I wish I could say I did this, but in all honesty I had been married for 20 years before I understood it. I just happened to get lucky -- growing up under similar circumstances as my bride has given us common touchstones.

Diederich 8y ago
I've been married about 19 years, and I think I'm clear on what you're saying. But I haven't heard it put quite this way. Can you cite some concrete examples of these values, and, perhaps, common ways that an otherwise seemingly compatible couple might not share them? Thanks.
- umvi 8y ago
  Person A is religious and values spiritual growth. Person A wants their kids to believe in God and develop spiritually. Person B is atheist and thinks religion is a crock. Person B wants their kids to reject religion and flush spirituality down the toilet. Person B is willing to let A go to church on Sundays to make the relationship work since B is attracted to A. But there will probably be big problems with this over time, especially if kids come into the picture.

homonculus1 8y ago

I have trouble understanding why people buckle to social pressure in this day and age. If you aren't Amish or JW risking your entire livelihood and social circle... is it really that hard to tell you're relatives you just aren't ready to be married?

mirimir 8y ago
In most of the US, if a relationship lasts long enough, it doesn't matter much whether you "get married" or not. As far as the state's concerned, you are legally married.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  What are you referring to? Common law marriage? That’s only valid in 8 states and DC (California is not one of those states, FYI). Edit: Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, and the District of Columbia are the only US districts where one can enter into a common law marriage today. Such marriages are, of course, recognized by other states, but you won’t end up “accidentally” married by doing nothing in New York, for instance.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    OK, I stand corrected.[0] But then, in California there's "palimony",[1] so it's iffy. I guess the lesson is to research the applicable legal environment. 0) https://www.cadivorce.com/news/common-law-marriage-myths/ https://www.cadivorce.com/news/common-law-marriage-myths/ 1) https://www.cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/spousal-support/what-is-a-palimony-or-marvin-claim/ https://www.cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/spousal-s...
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    Add Washington state to your list. There is case law here whereby if you live together or demonstrate that you are in a domestic partnership, you can be liable for spousal support, using the same guidelines as divorce. And this is without signing any documents or anything “official” to mark the partnership. Edit: in fact, to make this even more messed up - Washington state had a domestic partnership law, then got rid of it. So now there is a giant legal grey area where the courts have basically said “we know it when we see it.”

somberi 8y ago

To quote the comedian Chris Rock: You have two choices. Single and lonely. Married and bored. Ain't no happiness anywhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6X0Qqxx3f0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6X0Qqxx3f0

djrogers 8y ago

> I’m not an expert on this, nor am I married—but I’ve read a lot about it Ooookaaaay.... Sorry, but you have lost what little credibility you might have had right there.

black6 8y ago
That’s where I stopped reading, too.

woodandsteel 8y ago

Lot of interesting ideas here. I would just add a few points. On listening to your gut when you are a brain person, this is actually trainable, check out the book Focusing by the University of Chicago psychologist and philosopher Eugene Gendlin. On deciding, it seems to me the two most important things are if the two of you have reasonably common values about how you want to live your lives, and if you trust the other person's moral character and ability to act rationally, at least when it comes to something really important. If the two of you have these, then you can probably work out the difficulties. Thirdly, you stand a much better chance of settling problems small and large if you take a course in interpersonal relationship and conflict resolution skills. See for instance Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. Lastly, you need to have some larger philosophy or religion to keep things in perspective and as basis for personal value beyond how much your mate loves you, otherwise you will either be their puppet or try to be their master.

tomcam 8y ago
Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg changed the way I thought. However, it, ah, doesn't matter at all if both parties don't buy in.

azernik 8y ago

> Society, in most parts of the world, doesn’t like when a relationship lasts too long. To society, a relationship is simply a testing ground—an incubator that prepares you for The Decision. And if too many years go by in a relationship without The Decision being made, society decides that something must be wrong. To help right the wrong, society will begin to apply pressure on the couple, from all angles. In polyamorous circles, this is called the "relationship escalator" - the idea that a relationship must escalate up to marriage or be considered a failure. In the polyamorous context this is considered a fallacy, because you can still have another live-in, child-raising relationship while this one ceases to escalate; but in a monogamous context there are real reasons to "fish or cut bait" other than just social pressure. If you're looking to have a married-and-settled-down life and that's not happening with the current partner, you need to pursue that end-state with someone else, and monogamy requires you to break up the non-escalating relationship before you can do that.

hardwaresofton 8y ago

This is the kind of thing everyone should think through post-highschool/college/in their 20s -- glad someone's written it out. I would love another guide/write-up like this for friendship -- it seems like people my age (late 20s/early 30s) and younger are in this world where "friendship" means so little (as used by Facebook) and yet so much (as used by your actual friends who you make efforts to see and enjoy spending time with). Finding people that have actively thought through many of life's quandaries (should you eat meat? how should governments be run? what do you want out of life?) and have formed opinions backed by mostly fact but who are ready to change in the presence of new data is so difficult though. I have a hunch I'm not looking in the right places but even in my late 20s I run into so many people who just haven't thought about most of the important shit and are just looking to glob onto someone for the rest of their life. Like sure, listening to music and digesting memes is great, but if you can't align or at least come to reasoned disagreement with your partner on shit that really matters, what is everyone doing.

rayiner 8y ago

It's interesting to me that people in the U.S. (maybe all the West, I just have experience with the U.S.) spend so much effort trying to find a marriage partner. But it does not appear to me that folks are happier in their marriages than in countries where some form of arranged marriage (not necessarily a "big A" arranged marriage, but maybe a "little A" arranged marriage) is common. I suspect: 1) We're not special and in fact there are a wide range of people we'd be relatively happy being married to; 2) It does not take that long to figure out whether our partner falls into bucket (1); 3) To the extent that initially happy marriages sour, it's because of changed circumstances, and there is little you can do at step (1) to prevent those.

tptacek 8y ago
Strongest possible agree. My wife and I were together for 3 weeks before we eloped in Reno (we both broke up with previous partners to be together). We're celebrating our 20th in a couple weeks. And for about half that time we've also worked together. There's a dude on this thread who has apparently been married longer than I've been alive and my 20 years makes me a marriage piker, but I suspect the real secret is that a marriage is something you build, not something you discover in some godawful dating treasure hunt.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Congrats!!

jancsika 8y ago

Just marry someone who a) deals with their shit and b) doesn't drive you crazy. If you're not sure your love interest is doing "a", find a mouthy asshole you trust and mention things about your relationship to them. If they don't convincingly criticize your love interest (or you) then you're probably ok to get married. If you don't yet know what drives you crazy: stop. You are too young to get married.

cm2012 8y ago

Some quick stats on marriage in a cynical thread: 1) Only 40% of marriages end in divorce these days. 2) Divorced people are much more likely to divorce multiple times, so first marriage success rate is closer to 75%. 3) In job cross splits, software developers have much lower divorce rates than the general pop. As an unmarried HN reader, you probably have a an 80% chance of lifelong marriage.

01100011 8y ago
Just anecdotal evidence, but during my divorce 2 other SW engineers I know also got divorced and another one asked me for advice on how to get it started. I know lots of SW guys with stories of horrible divorces and insane legal bills which took decades to pay off. Maybe it's because I'm in Southern California where the divorce rate is something like 75%.