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There's a fundamental conflict between conceptual Utopia/Heaven and the law of supply and demand. All literary conceptions of a utopia rely on abundance of some
by ballenf 8y ago
There's a fundamental conflict between conceptual Utopia/Heaven and the law of supply and demand. All literary conceptions of a utopia rely on abundance of some good that is scarce in the author's time. Usually ignoring that its ubiquity makes it tend toward zero value.
Here's my stab at Utopia, but it requires a belief that Knowledge is infinite:
Utopia is a state of unhindered, continual learning at your own chosen pace.
- saagarjha 8y agoIt looks like we both independently came to the same conclusion, though I have a “solution” to the finite knowledge problem :)
- hexomancer 8y agoIs it alzheimer’s?
- saagarjha 8y agoNo, although that is an interesting thought: selectively forgetting things so you can relearn them later.
- Izkata 8y agoThe immortals from the webcomic El Goonish Shive do something like this to avoid insanity, passing only important memories into their new lives. It tends to lead to panic (due to half-remembering important things) or unwanted obligations in their next life.
- otakucode 8y agoIt would be helpful, if still dealing with a human brain, to forget things in order to remain sane. Simulated brains which have the ability to forget removed end up acting pretty much exactly like schizophrenics brains.
- hexomancer 8y agoDo you have a source for that?
- otakucode 8y agoSorry for long wait for reply, but I'd 'posted too fast' and couldn't reply yesterday and just got back to it. But yes, here is the study I was referring to: https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(11)00012-6/fulltext https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-32...
- ballenf 8y agoCool. The "saagball" theory of infinite happiness is born. The other order of names didn't sound right.
- orasis 8y agoUtopia is gratitude now.
- stcredzero 8y agoIt turns out, we are wired up for gratitude. https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy
- larrydag 8y agoThe U.S. founding fathers had another definition which is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is very individualized. Suggests it is relevant to the one as opposed to relevant to the masses. Very anti-elitist on its own merit.
- saagarjha 8y agoThe “pursuit of happiness” is what is being discussed, given that “life” and “liberty” are already guaranteed. The question is, how exactly to pursue happiness.
- stcredzero 8y agoBasically, keep striving until you are satisfied. https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy
- larrydag 8y agoOne builds their own personal utopia instead of allowing some government entity dictating a recipe for happiness.
- mtberatwork 8y agoWell, individualized to the gentry and those with enough wealth to avoid labor, but certainly not the slave population.
- 2bitmachine 8y agoThere was nothing anti-elitist about it. It was limited to a landed, genocidal, slave-owning class who were setting themselves up as something like a new aristocracy.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago"Utopia is a state of unhindered, continual learning at your own chosen pace." That's a very specific view of Utopia that I suggest most regular folk would not agree with, moreover, it's a bit odds with metaphysical kind of utopias from antiquity. Knowledge is ultimately still material, not necessarily enlightening. It's part of the dualist 'trap' that keeps us focused on what's right in front of our noses, 'playing some game' engaged in materiality. To me, bits of knowledge are just bits of lego blocks, tools for helping us describe experience. Remember in Abrahamic terms were 'cast out of Eden/Heaven' literally for eating from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil', i.e. the start of dualism and this never ending thirst for knowledge which distracts us from simply 'being'. You see this in eastern philosophies as well with 'attachment' to things, including knowledge. But I do like your point about supply/demand perhaps (think of it especially in terms of social status, not material things especially) and constantly needing something, in your case, knowledge/learning. Neat thought.
- shrimp_emoji 8y ago>That's a very specific view of Utopia that I suggest most regular folk would not agree with The pain of learning and remembering and the zero-sum nature of forgetting make me disagree with it, but you can call all of those "hindrances". If I could swell my processing speed and memory capacity to absurd levels and become one of many god-like intelligences, able of satisfying all of my curiosities with any and all facets of reality with no particularly strenuous effort before, as a last resort, exercising my power to mutate my mind to the point where I put myself in ceaseless ecstasy for its own sake (in these dimensions or the others[0]), that has to qualify as the definition of paradise. Let's hope we crack the conservation of energy sometime. : p 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed
- sonnyblarney 8y agoFrom a classical view, maybe you're wanting more and more intellectual heroin. The Eastern answer would be to 'let go' then you break the cycle of incarnation and then you 'get it'. I think high level Abrahamic metaphysics would put 'God' far beyond any kind of acquisition of knowledge, 'states of ecstasy' etc. etc.. Once we crack the law of conservation of energy we'll be up against another boundary :)
- klenwell 8y ago> Utopia is a state of unhindered, continual learning at your own chosen pace. This is similar to an argument Oscar Wilde made in The Soul of Man under Socialism, although he frames it, as you might expect, around art and the artist. I find it a little surprising that Wilde does not come up in Orwell's essay. A pretty good summary of Wilde's case here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_Man_under_Socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_Man_under_Socialis...
- dctoedt 8y agoUtopia is sustainable, scalable happiness.
- 13415 8y agoIf by 'value' you mean 'monetary value' you may be right. Otherwise, not.
- gnode 8y agoIf there's a conflict between sustainable enjoyment and constraints of reality, then maybe utopia / heaven is euphoric mania. Certainly fiction has explored the idea of psychotherapeutic utopia.
- macspoofing 8y ago>Utopia is a state of unhindered, continual learning at your own chosen pace Isn't that just your reformulation of the same sort of traditional definition of Utopia? You value relaxed/continual learning which in some way is missing your life, so therefore that is your Utopia. :)
- haihaibye 8y agoThe internet contains information on almost every topic for free. Most people spend their time watching cat videos.
- perilunar 8y agoCat videos, porn, and first person shooters. i.e. our 3 strongest instincts: sex, violence, and nurturing.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago> Utopia is a state of unhindered, continual learning at your own chosen pace. That's pretty darn close to a solid Christian perspective on heaven, where God himself is the one whose infinite love, creativity, and power bring unending joy to his people -- and knowing more about him (there's infinite content to be taken in) becomes the pursuit that never gets old. He's the only reason heaven won't be dull after 10^x years -- both knowing him personally and enjoying and learning about (via science, etc.) the new things he will do.