6 ms·

UK’s worst-selling map: The empty landscape charted by OS440

84 points by f_allwein 8y ago

andybak 8y ago
Americans (and probably many Europeans) might not realise how strange the idea of emptiness is to many Brits - especially those of us who grew up in the South East. For me Dungeness feels like a remote wilderness... (tries hard to avoid making a joke about Croydon)
- bostik 8y ago
  > (tries hard to avoid making a joke about Croydon) Less of a place, more of a punch-line? (Sue Perkins)
  - blt 8y ago
    OK, as an American "Peep Show" fan, I'm trying to figure out why people make fun of Croydon so much. I've noticed it online recently. On the show it seems like a pretty average place.
    - DC-3 8y ago
      I think a significant reason for Croydon featuring in jokes is that it's simply a 'funny' name. Did you know that Peep Show was made in Croydon because the season 1 director wanted the show to have a slightly artsy European feel and thus wanted it to be set in a place with trams?
      - kbob 8y ago
        But every town, village, and hill in the UK has a funny name. Croydon must have something more.
    - multjoy 8y ago
      It's really shit. It's an overflow town of London proper, and has no redeeming features apart from Ikea.
      - twic 8y ago
        It's also got that milkshake place in the big shopping centre.
        multjoy 8y ago
        Also the highest rate of sexual offending in the metropolitan police district.
      - BerislavLopac 8y ago
        On the contrary, it has The Ludoquist!
    - rollthehard6 8y ago
      2000AD had a go at Croydon too - https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/0/9116/332635-19752-125581-1-2000-a-d.jpg https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/0/9116/3326...
    - JdeBP 8y ago
      In the larger picture, it's not specific to Croydon. People have variously picked on Milton Keynes, Slough, and others over the years. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough_(poem) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough_(poem) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelmsford_123 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelmsford_123
- mikeash 8y ago
  I’m definitely fascinated by this idea of an “empty zone” that “only” has a few farms and a couple of hotels.
  - lb1lf 8y ago
    For a truly sparsely populated landscape, you could do worse than getting a copy of the Michelin 741 (Sahara) or (a personal favourite) the Norwegian Polar Institute 1:250k maps of Dronning Maud Land in Antarctica.
    - Cyph0n 8y ago
      I thought that 741 would just be a map of Sahara, but it actually includes most of North (where I'm from) and West Africa. Wouldn't a Canadian or Russian map have more sparsely populated land, or am I underestimating the size of the Sahara?
      - lb1lf 8y ago
        -That is quite probable, I just looked up a couple of the maps I had on the shelves. Incidentally, if we make the leap from 'sparsely populated' to 'sparsely detailed', the winner on my map shelves probably is a map issued by the GDR authorities showing Berlin. The western sectors are blank, the only legend being 'Berlin (West)'.
      - lliamander 8y ago
        I believe the Sahara is larger than the contiguous United States (i.e. excluding Alaska, Hawaii, etc.)
      - ac29 8y ago
        Due to the way most common map projections work, places in northern/southern latitudes look larger than they actually are. The Sahara (9.2M km^2) is about the same size as Canada (9.1M km^2).
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  I only realised this as an African I took my first overseas trip to UK and Austria. It struck me just how much light and how little open spaces there are in Europe (compared to Africa). It is possible to drive a 100-200km without seeing a single electric light where I am from. I remember once sitting next to an Englishman as the plane landed at Victoria Falls airport. He remarked that the plane looks like it is going to land in the bush. I realised then that there is no building apart from the airport building for 20 km. So when you look out the window as the plane comes into land all you see is bush. South Africa is, of course, a different story.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- gaius 8y ago
  might not realise how strange the idea of emptiness is to many Brits This is certainly not true of all Brits, mostly Londoners think this way. "What this green empty space really needs is an exciting development of exclusive executive apartments... say, why do they call them flood plains anyway?". Most of the UK is uninhabitable, it's just the bits that are habitable are very densely packed with people, who rarely venture out of them and see the rest of the country.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    Yep - cities are very densely packed, but if you live even slightly north, drive for 30 minutes away from the city and the chances are you will end up in the middle of completely empty moors or farmland, with nothing of any significance for miles in every direction.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    Flood plains can be dealt with (Netherlands). Although I grew up with pretty much your attitude, I now suspect the UK’s green belt policy caused more harm than good — it is a significant contributor to the house price problem, and creates a perverse incentive to promote unsuitable land for housing projects wherever and whenever that parcel of land can be squeezed through the rules, rather than when a natural market (or a sane government program) would.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Hmm, the green belt policy prevents companies from going "this bit of land needs concrete removing, lets just use a fresh field for our block of flats" which leads to settlements spreading excessively often encompassing large "dead" areas. House price problems are down to landlords being able to earn a living by doing nothing other than owning land. Green belt also protects farm land, which when Brexit hits is going to be a major thing for us again; if we'd been able to sell out all our farms for housing developments then we [or the poor at least] would be a considerably more dangerous position when food import prices rise. Of course housing developers instead of spending the money to properly develop on flood plains, if they needed to, decided as they weren't living there and the government was turning a blind eye that they could get away with it. So now we have tighter laws on building in flood prone areas -- though they still get ignored somewhat, in my area of the UK for political reasons a school has recently been built on land marked as "by law you can not build here, high flood risk" (idiots!).
- tomfanning 8y ago
  I'm an amateur radio guy in the UK. I like RF-quiet locations. Not far from me is an ancient thoroughfare up in the hills - Ridgeway. In parts it's relatively remote. I drove up there recently to try and get away from the urban noise and see what I could work / hear. Also to avoid upsetting people with big poles, wires, and lots of RF. While up there, it struck me just how busy it actually still was. When you're sitting there actively expecting it to be devoid of people, it's amazing just how many people there actually still are. So yes, I very much in agreement with this. As a result of my experience, I'm now planning a trip up to Scotland to find somewhere actually remote to stay for a few days. I find the idea of it being just me and the airwaves very zen.
  - f_allwein 8y ago
    same issue, of course, for star gazing, where you need dark areas away from artificial light.
hemmer 8y ago
See also: most boring grid square http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/81429 http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/81429
- AlecSchueler 8y ago
  And, on that note, the Royal Society for the Preservation of Boring Grid Squares, over at http://www.mapfodder.com/rspgs.html http://www.mapfodder.com/rspgs.html
DonaldFisk 8y ago
Here's the area on Bing Maps, which uses Ordnance Survey for mapping: https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=60d7bc4e-b3f7-44d6-b167-388f780593d0&cp=58.068465~-4.745053&lvl=12&style=s&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=60d7bc4e-b3f7-44d6-b167-388f7... The language almost all of the place names are in is Scottish Gaelic. Common place words are beinn: mountain meall: round hill cnoc: hill coire: circular hollow surrounded by hills creag: rock abhainn: river allt: stream loch: lake mór: big beag: small
tuukkah 8y ago
Emptyness is relative: "Robertson estimates that there are fewer than a couple of hundred people living in the 826 square kilometres covered by map 440." So something like 0.25 people/km², not 0.0, in a 30km x 30km area. "There are [--] a handful of farms, a couple of hotels, and a few roads, nearly all of them single track." Compare to this: "The most isolated point is 7.8 kilometers from the closest building and is located in Cairngorms National Park." So at least 191 km² with 0 buildings (and thus 0 inhabitants?). https://tjukanov.org/a-spot-of-solitude/ https://tjukanov.org/a-spot-of-solitude/

84 points by f_allwein 8y ago

Americans (and probably many Europeans) might not realise how strange the idea of emptiness is to many Brits - especially those of us who grew up in the South East. For me Dungeness feels like a remote wilderness... (tries hard to avoid making a joke about Croydon)

bostik 8y ago
> (tries hard to avoid making a joke about Croydon) Less of a place, more of a punch-line? (Sue Perkins)
- blt 8y ago
  OK, as an American "Peep Show" fan, I'm trying to figure out why people make fun of Croydon so much. I've noticed it online recently. On the show it seems like a pretty average place.
  - DC-3 8y ago
    I think a significant reason for Croydon featuring in jokes is that it's simply a 'funny' name. Did you know that Peep Show was made in Croydon because the season 1 director wanted the show to have a slightly artsy European feel and thus wanted it to be set in a place with trams?
    - kbob 8y ago
      But every town, village, and hill in the UK has a funny name. Croydon must have something more.
  - multjoy 8y ago
    It's really shit. It's an overflow town of London proper, and has no redeeming features apart from Ikea.
    - twic 8y ago
      It's also got that milkshake place in the big shopping centre.
      - multjoy 8y ago
        Also the highest rate of sexual offending in the metropolitan police district.
    - BerislavLopac 8y ago
      On the contrary, it has The Ludoquist!
  - rollthehard6 8y ago
    2000AD had a go at Croydon too - https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/0/9116/332635-19752-125581-1-2000-a-d.jpg https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/0/9116/3326...
  - JdeBP 8y ago
    In the larger picture, it's not specific to Croydon. People have variously picked on Milton Keynes, Slough, and others over the years. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough_(poem) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough_(poem) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelmsford_123 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelmsford_123
mikeash 8y ago
I’m definitely fascinated by this idea of an “empty zone” that “only” has a few farms and a couple of hotels.
- lb1lf 8y ago
  For a truly sparsely populated landscape, you could do worse than getting a copy of the Michelin 741 (Sahara) or (a personal favourite) the Norwegian Polar Institute 1:250k maps of Dronning Maud Land in Antarctica.
  - Cyph0n 8y ago
    I thought that 741 would just be a map of Sahara, but it actually includes most of North (where I'm from) and West Africa. Wouldn't a Canadian or Russian map have more sparsely populated land, or am I underestimating the size of the Sahara?
    - lb1lf 8y ago
      -That is quite probable, I just looked up a couple of the maps I had on the shelves. Incidentally, if we make the leap from 'sparsely populated' to 'sparsely detailed', the winner on my map shelves probably is a map issued by the GDR authorities showing Berlin. The western sectors are blank, the only legend being 'Berlin (West)'.
    - lliamander 8y ago
      I believe the Sahara is larger than the contiguous United States (i.e. excluding Alaska, Hawaii, etc.)
    - ac29 8y ago
      Due to the way most common map projections work, places in northern/southern latitudes look larger than they actually are. The Sahara (9.2M km^2) is about the same size as Canada (9.1M km^2).
mmsimanga 8y ago
I only realised this as an African I took my first overseas trip to UK and Austria. It struck me just how much light and how little open spaces there are in Europe (compared to Africa). It is possible to drive a 100-200km without seeing a single electric light where I am from. I remember once sitting next to an Englishman as the plane landed at Victoria Falls airport. He remarked that the plane looks like it is going to land in the bush. I realised then that there is no building apart from the airport building for 20 km. So when you look out the window as the plane comes into land all you see is bush. South Africa is, of course, a different story.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gaius 8y ago
might not realise how strange the idea of emptiness is to many Brits This is certainly not true of all Brits, mostly Londoners think this way. "What this green empty space really needs is an exciting development of exclusive executive apartments... say, why do they call them flood plains anyway?". Most of the UK is uninhabitable, it's just the bits that are habitable are very densely packed with people, who rarely venture out of them and see the rest of the country.
- gambiting 8y ago
  Yep - cities are very densely packed, but if you live even slightly north, drive for 30 minutes away from the city and the chances are you will end up in the middle of completely empty moors or farmland, with nothing of any significance for miles in every direction.
- ben_w 8y ago
  Flood plains can be dealt with (Netherlands). Although I grew up with pretty much your attitude, I now suspect the UK’s green belt policy caused more harm than good — it is a significant contributor to the house price problem, and creates a perverse incentive to promote unsuitable land for housing projects wherever and whenever that parcel of land can be squeezed through the rules, rather than when a natural market (or a sane government program) would.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Hmm, the green belt policy prevents companies from going "this bit of land needs concrete removing, lets just use a fresh field for our block of flats" which leads to settlements spreading excessively often encompassing large "dead" areas. House price problems are down to landlords being able to earn a living by doing nothing other than owning land. Green belt also protects farm land, which when Brexit hits is going to be a major thing for us again; if we'd been able to sell out all our farms for housing developments then we [or the poor at least] would be a considerably more dangerous position when food import prices rise. Of course housing developers instead of spending the money to properly develop on flood plains, if they needed to, decided as they weren't living there and the government was turning a blind eye that they could get away with it. So now we have tighter laws on building in flood prone areas -- though they still get ignored somewhat, in my area of the UK for political reasons a school has recently been built on land marked as "by law you can not build here, high flood risk" (idiots!).
tomfanning 8y ago
I'm an amateur radio guy in the UK. I like RF-quiet locations. Not far from me is an ancient thoroughfare up in the hills - Ridgeway. In parts it's relatively remote. I drove up there recently to try and get away from the urban noise and see what I could work / hear. Also to avoid upsetting people with big poles, wires, and lots of RF. While up there, it struck me just how busy it actually still was. When you're sitting there actively expecting it to be devoid of people, it's amazing just how many people there actually still are. So yes, I very much in agreement with this. As a result of my experience, I'm now planning a trip up to Scotland to find somewhere actually remote to stay for a few days. I find the idea of it being just me and the airwaves very zen.
- f_allwein 8y ago
  same issue, of course, for star gazing, where you need dark areas away from artificial light.

hemmer 8y ago

See also: most boring grid square http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/81429 http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/81429

AlecSchueler 8y ago
And, on that note, the Royal Society for the Preservation of Boring Grid Squares, over at http://www.mapfodder.com/rspgs.html http://www.mapfodder.com/rspgs.html

DonaldFisk 8y ago

Here's the area on Bing Maps, which uses Ordnance Survey for mapping: https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=60d7bc4e-b3f7-44d6-b167-388f780593d0&cp=58.068465~-4.745053&lvl=12&style=s&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=60d7bc4e-b3f7-44d6-b167-388f7... The language almost all of the place names are in is Scottish Gaelic. Common place words are beinn: mountain meall: round hill cnoc: hill coire: circular hollow surrounded by hills creag: rock abhainn: river allt: stream loch: lake mór: big beag: small

tuukkah 8y ago

Emptyness is relative: "Robertson estimates that there are fewer than a couple of hundred people living in the 826 square kilometres covered by map 440." So something like 0.25 people/km², not 0.0, in a 30km x 30km area. "There are [--] a handful of farms, a couple of hotels, and a few roads, nearly all of them single track." Compare to this: "The most isolated point is 7.8 kilometers from the closest building and is located in Cairngorms National Park." So at least 191 km² with 0 buildings (and thus 0 inhabitants?). https://tjukanov.org/a-spot-of-solitude/ https://tjukanov.org/a-spot-of-solitude/