3 ms·

>“What you are seeing in a number of systems, other developmental systems, is that the sex differences are shrinking,” Swan told me. Men are producing less sper

>“What you are seeing in a number of systems, other developmental systems, is that the sex differences are shrinking,” Swan told me. Men are producing less sperm. They're also becoming less male. Is it possible that these phenomena relate to the seemingly explosive rise in transgenderism? Particularly MtF, which is much more common than the reverse. Perhaps for those with already low male:female hormone ratios, if they are tipped further by these endocrine disruptors, especially during development, they might really have a brain that feels more female.

amelius 8y ago
Makes me wonder if there are any "endocrine disruptors" that work in the opposite direction.
- rincebrain 8y ago
  Surprisingly, the only things I can find suggesting the existence of xenoandrogens seem to be attempts to sell me things. I wonder why.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  All human Zygotes start out as female, and a burst of androgens makes some fetuses develop male sexual characteristics. If those androgens aren't released, the child retains female sexual presentation, even if they have XY chromosomes. As is commonly mentioned, this is why men have nipples even though they're not functional for men. According to my very weak understanding, it's easier to prevent that from happening than it is to accidentally introduce enough xenoandrogens to cause a XX fetus to develop male sexual characteristics.
phoschore 8y ago
Your sentiment echoes my own: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17939166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17939166
- zxcvvcxz 8y ago
  I would love a reliable way to measure Birth Control and SSRIs in the water, and compare it to decades ago. I feel like there's a good chance these are "sleeper issues" affecting global health (in addition to the plastics as discussed). Maybe somewhere there's an ice core that's saved representative water from the decades? Regarding estrogens from BC in the water, some fish findings are quite suggestive: https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/birth-control-pill-threatens-fish-populations-1.2796897 https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/birth-control-pill-threat... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304092230.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304092230.h...
village-idiot 8y ago
I've always wondered that. It would be quite difficult to determine if transgenderism is more common now than it once was, or if we're more open to recognizing and helping people who are transgendered.
alexandercrohde 8y ago
By occam's razor, I have to wonder the same thing. Also it seems there is already some tenuous evidence that being exposed to artificial hormones in-utero can be correlated with transgenderism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_defects_of_diethylstilbestrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_defects_of_diethylstilbe... - section: sexual differentiation
eridius 8y ago
> Is it possible that these phenomena relate to the seemingly explosive rise in transgenderism? No. Being transgender is not the result of having imbalanced hormone levels. The proof is the fact that giving trans women testosterone doesn't "cure" their gender dysphoria (it may actually make it worse), and same goes for giving trans men estrogen. > Particularly MtF, which is much more common than the reverse. Not true. This is an artifact of the fact that, for decades, sexologists were primarily only interested in studying MtF people, and that the transgender population was only measured in terms of who was allowed to transition (and, like the sexologists studying it, the doctors who prescribed hormones significantly favored MtF patients). It turns out that when you remove the gatekeeping bullshit and actually measure the real trans population, not just the population of people allowed to medically transition, people transition in both directions at approximately the same rate (meaning the MtF population is about the same size as the FtM population).
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > The proof is the fact that giving trans women testosterone doesn't "cure" their gender dysphoria Interesting! I was wondering about this the other day. Do you have any links?
  - eridius 8y ago
    I don’t have any links off the top of my head, but it’s generally accepted by the medical community at this point that the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is to transition. I’d try to dig up links but I’m on mobile and the brief search I just did only talks about cross-sex hormone therapy (though the lack of quick info on same-sex hormone therapy itself is a big clue that it doesn’t work).

amelius 8y ago

Makes me wonder if there are any "endocrine disruptors" that work in the opposite direction.

rincebrain 8y ago
Surprisingly, the only things I can find suggesting the existence of xenoandrogens seem to be attempts to sell me things. I wonder why.
village-idiot 8y ago
All human Zygotes start out as female, and a burst of androgens makes some fetuses develop male sexual characteristics. If those androgens aren't released, the child retains female sexual presentation, even if they have XY chromosomes. As is commonly mentioned, this is why men have nipples even though they're not functional for men. According to my very weak understanding, it's easier to prevent that from happening than it is to accidentally introduce enough xenoandrogens to cause a XX fetus to develop male sexual characteristics.

phoschore 8y ago

Your sentiment echoes my own: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17939166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17939166

zxcvvcxz 8y ago
I would love a reliable way to measure Birth Control and SSRIs in the water, and compare it to decades ago. I feel like there's a good chance these are "sleeper issues" affecting global health (in addition to the plastics as discussed). Maybe somewhere there's an ice core that's saved representative water from the decades? Regarding estrogens from BC in the water, some fish findings are quite suggestive: https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/birth-control-pill-threatens-fish-populations-1.2796897 https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/birth-control-pill-threat... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304092230.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160304092230.h...

village-idiot 8y ago

I've always wondered that. It would be quite difficult to determine if transgenderism is more common now than it once was, or if we're more open to recognizing and helping people who are transgendered.

alexandercrohde 8y ago

By occam's razor, I have to wonder the same thing. Also it seems there is already some tenuous evidence that being exposed to artificial hormones in-utero can be correlated with transgenderism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_defects_of_diethylstilbestrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_defects_of_diethylstilbe... - section: sexual differentiation

eridius 8y ago

> Is it possible that these phenomena relate to the seemingly explosive rise in transgenderism? No. Being transgender is not the result of having imbalanced hormone levels. The proof is the fact that giving trans women testosterone doesn't "cure" their gender dysphoria (it may actually make it worse), and same goes for giving trans men estrogen. > Particularly MtF, which is much more common than the reverse. Not true. This is an artifact of the fact that, for decades, sexologists were primarily only interested in studying MtF people, and that the transgender population was only measured in terms of who was allowed to transition (and, like the sexologists studying it, the doctors who prescribed hormones significantly favored MtF patients). It turns out that when you remove the gatekeeping bullshit and actually measure the real trans population, not just the population of people allowed to medically transition, people transition in both directions at approximately the same rate (meaning the MtF population is about the same size as the FtM population).

sheepmullet 8y ago
> The proof is the fact that giving trans women testosterone doesn't "cure" their gender dysphoria Interesting! I was wondering about this the other day. Do you have any links?
- eridius 8y ago
  I don’t have any links off the top of my head, but it’s generally accepted by the medical community at this point that the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is to transition. I’d try to dig up links but I’m on mobile and the brief search I just did only talks about cross-sex hormone therapy (though the lack of quick info on same-sex hormone therapy itself is a big clue that it doesn’t work).