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Equifax and what they do is the epitome of uselessness [https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17308744/bullshit-jobs-book-david-graeber-occupy-wall-street-karl-marx http

Equifax and what they do is the epitome of uselessness [https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17308744/bullshit-jobs-book-david-graeber-occupy-wall-street-karl-marx https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17308744/bullshit-jobs-book-dav...] They are a company whose sole purpose is to track how reputable a consumer is, which is entirely extrajudicial and arbitrary. How do you fine/hurt/stop something which is pure made up bullshit and had no purpose to begin with?

tboyd47 8y ago
It's also blatantly unconstitutional because it discriminates against the sects of Islam that don't allow loans with interest (and that's the only way to build "credit").
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  The constitution only applies to the federal government. You might mean illegally discriminatory per the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which disallows businesses to discriminate on the grounds of religion. Even that, though, might only be applicable Equifax's customers, since those are the businesses who would be denying service to people without credit histories.
  - tboyd47 8y ago
    Thanks, I misspoke. IANAL but I still think Equifax itself is in the wrong. You can't expect businesses that deal in credit to skip due diligence on their customers. Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses.
    - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
      That would be libel, then.
    - g051051 8y ago
      > Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses. They do not. The CRAs provide the information, and the individual businesses decide what their limits are. A lot of businesses standardize on FICO scores, which just use CRA data. So a business decides what's acceptable, based on the info from CRAs and the model from FICO.
- spaceribs 8y ago
  Realizing in my twenties that not having a credit card was hurting my credit score, that really summed up to me how loathsome and manipulative the entire system is. For those who defend the credit history system, where was the consideration that I was mature enough to limit my spending and save for future expenditures rather than use a credit card? Where was the consideration to avoiding unnecessary risk entirely and still paying my bills?
  - tboyd47 8y ago
    Bankers' attitudes about it make it even more infuriating. Whenever I'm at the bank I get asked, "Have you considered taking a credit card to start building your credit?" When I patiently explain why I can't do that, their response is usually to just reiterate how important it is and how irresponsible I'm being. I've never seen a salesperson in any other industry do this. When I ask waiters for non-pork substitutes, they don't come back with, "Listen, I know you don't eat pork but you should get the bacon anyway because it's really good." One time the lady asked me, how they are supposed to make money from zero-interest loans? How should I know? You're the finance expert. I didn't come in here looking for a loan. You asked me!
    - spaceribs 8y ago
      What I want to see out of this or future generations is a culture of never-debts, who responsibly save, invest, and not tie their entire lives to credit ratings, shiny garbage, and what wall street wants. The biggest con job on the American middle class was the 401k though, how else could people be so fashioned against their own interests than to emotionally tie their future so intimately with how the stock market is doing. I'm not holding my breath on things changing though...
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        Debt is valuable, man. It fuels growth. Frequently the guy who can do things isn't the guy with money. Debt is one means of the doer guy acquiring the money to do.
- g051051 8y ago
  How so? A CRA will just report that a loan is paid on time or not. If you can get an interest free loan, and you pay it as agreed, that'll get reported same as any other loan.
  - tboyd47 8y ago
    Really? Where can one get these "interest free loans?"
    - g051051 8y ago
      There are companies that provide "Islamic" or "Shariah-compliant" mortgages. I don't understand the model, but they claim there's no interest involved.
      - vkou 8y ago
        They buy the house for, say, $200,000 from the seller. They then sell it to you for $400,000, made payable in equal-sized payments over 25 years.
        lotsofpulp 8y ago
        The key difference would be what happens if you stop paying. Otherwise it’s just a lease with a purchase option at the end. If you can walk away from the lease with no further repercussions, then I can buy that it’s not technically a loan. If the lessor can pursue you for further payments or charges you fees and etc, then it’s just a regular loan with built in interest rate, and it’s a childish way to attempt to get around “interest”.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        Religion is full of these things, hermano. Here's another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  Out of pure curiosity: why would someone who has no desire to obtain credit care if a credit rating agency hampered their ability to build credit?
  - tboyd47 8y ago
    It affects your life in a whole lot of other ways. Car rentals, apartment applications, etc.
  - g051051 8y ago
    CRA information gets used in any situation where there are payments over time, even if they aren't "credit" situations. Renting, getting utilities, etc.
    - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
      Also, car insurance rates.
    - UncleEntity 8y ago
      All the places I've rented only cared if there was an eviction on your record and I've never had an issue getting utilities -- sure, they usually want a deposit since I have a bad credit rating because I'm horrible at paying bills on time but they always give me service. The last place I rented started the eviction process the very same afternoon the "grace period" ended -- think I was off doing reserve stuff that weekend or simply forgot -- and that caused me to not be able to move into a fancy apartment complex once upon a time (though, mostly, they were using it as an excuse to discriminate against a "dirty truck driver" who didn't fit the kind of people they wanted in their yuppie complex, which they basically told me) but my current landlord could care less, as long as you pay your rent (not necessarily on time) and don't cause any problems you're golden.
      - niij 8y ago
        Why would an apartment owner want to rent to someone who had been evicted? I would assume that would be the #1 thing they look out for. Applicants who didn't hold up their end of a rental agreement is a strong indicator. If your employer paid you late because they were "bad at paying their bills" you'd be pretty upset, as would most people.
solarkraft 8y ago
There's a purpose. Companies pay them, there's a market. The business case is solid, but you can certainly make an ethical argument against it.
- spaceribs 8y ago
  Companies already have this service provided by the judicial system, it's called bankruptcy and it's a public record. If theres a market for more detail than that, it's a bullshit market, because how that report gets generated is entirely arbitrary.
  - harryh 8y ago
    "People who have paid back previous loans on schedule are more likely to pay back future loans on schedule" is not arbitrary.
    - spaceribs 8y ago
      That is already described via bankruptcy.
      - harryh 8y ago
        That is not at all true. You don't go bankrupt when you are late paying back a loan or miss payments or even default on a loan completely.
      - Haul4ss 8y ago
        No it's not. You can be behind on payments without filing for bankruptcy. You can have a debt sent to collections without filing for bankruptcy. There are all sorts of cases where a person is not trustworthy with money that do not show up in the public record. That's why credit bureaus came to exist, and although their business practices and data security leave much to be desired, I understand why they exist in the first place.
        8y ago
tptacek 8y ago
"Equifax and what they do" replaced a previous informal system without mechanical credit scoring that was far, far more discriminatory than the one we have now. The average HN reader --- and especially the average angry political HN commenter --- would not be happier in a world without credit ratings agencies. The fallacy is that in such a world world, you can get credit (or rent an apartment or whatever) without jumping through hoops. In fact, what really happens is that the hoops get more arbitrary, less standardized, less accountable, and more plentiful. It is for that reason that we should be especially unhappy about the way the law handles breaches like the one that happened at Equifax. These are companies that have decided to insinuate themselves in a crucial component of the consumer finance industry, and they should be held to a higher standard than we're holding them now.

tboyd47 8y ago

It's also blatantly unconstitutional because it discriminates against the sects of Islam that don't allow loans with interest (and that's the only way to build "credit").

InitialLastName 8y ago
The constitution only applies to the federal government. You might mean illegally discriminatory per the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which disallows businesses to discriminate on the grounds of religion. Even that, though, might only be applicable Equifax's customers, since those are the businesses who would be denying service to people without credit histories.
- tboyd47 8y ago
  Thanks, I misspoke. IANAL but I still think Equifax itself is in the wrong. You can't expect businesses that deal in credit to skip due diligence on their customers. Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses.
  - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
    That would be libel, then.
  - g051051 8y ago
    > Equifax (and the other 2) get to define creditworthiness for all these other businesses. They do not. The CRAs provide the information, and the individual businesses decide what their limits are. A lot of businesses standardize on FICO scores, which just use CRA data. So a business decides what's acceptable, based on the info from CRAs and the model from FICO.
spaceribs 8y ago
Realizing in my twenties that not having a credit card was hurting my credit score, that really summed up to me how loathsome and manipulative the entire system is. For those who defend the credit history system, where was the consideration that I was mature enough to limit my spending and save for future expenditures rather than use a credit card? Where was the consideration to avoiding unnecessary risk entirely and still paying my bills?
- tboyd47 8y ago
  Bankers' attitudes about it make it even more infuriating. Whenever I'm at the bank I get asked, "Have you considered taking a credit card to start building your credit?" When I patiently explain why I can't do that, their response is usually to just reiterate how important it is and how irresponsible I'm being. I've never seen a salesperson in any other industry do this. When I ask waiters for non-pork substitutes, they don't come back with, "Listen, I know you don't eat pork but you should get the bacon anyway because it's really good." One time the lady asked me, how they are supposed to make money from zero-interest loans? How should I know? You're the finance expert. I didn't come in here looking for a loan. You asked me!
  - spaceribs 8y ago
    What I want to see out of this or future generations is a culture of never-debts, who responsibly save, invest, and not tie their entire lives to credit ratings, shiny garbage, and what wall street wants. The biggest con job on the American middle class was the 401k though, how else could people be so fashioned against their own interests than to emotionally tie their future so intimately with how the stock market is doing. I'm not holding my breath on things changing though...
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      Debt is valuable, man. It fuels growth. Frequently the guy who can do things isn't the guy with money. Debt is one means of the doer guy acquiring the money to do.
g051051 8y ago
How so? A CRA will just report that a loan is paid on time or not. If you can get an interest free loan, and you pay it as agreed, that'll get reported same as any other loan.
- tboyd47 8y ago
  Really? Where can one get these "interest free loans?"
  - g051051 8y ago
    There are companies that provide "Islamic" or "Shariah-compliant" mortgages. I don't understand the model, but they claim there's no interest involved.
    - vkou 8y ago
      They buy the house for, say, $200,000 from the seller. They then sell it to you for $400,000, made payable in equal-sized payments over 25 years.
      - lotsofpulp 8y ago
        The key difference would be what happens if you stop paying. Otherwise it’s just a lease with a purchase option at the end. If you can walk away from the lease with no further repercussions, then I can buy that it’s not technically a loan. If the lessor can pursue you for further payments or charges you fees and etc, then it’s just a regular loan with built in interest rate, and it’s a childish way to attempt to get around “interest”.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        Religion is full of these things, hermano. Here's another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode
UncleEntity 8y ago
Out of pure curiosity: why would someone who has no desire to obtain credit care if a credit rating agency hampered their ability to build credit?
- tboyd47 8y ago
  It affects your life in a whole lot of other ways. Car rentals, apartment applications, etc.
- g051051 8y ago
  CRA information gets used in any situation where there are payments over time, even if they aren't "credit" situations. Renting, getting utilities, etc.
  - abraham_lincoln 8y ago
    Also, car insurance rates.
  - UncleEntity 8y ago
    All the places I've rented only cared if there was an eviction on your record and I've never had an issue getting utilities -- sure, they usually want a deposit since I have a bad credit rating because I'm horrible at paying bills on time but they always give me service. The last place I rented started the eviction process the very same afternoon the "grace period" ended -- think I was off doing reserve stuff that weekend or simply forgot -- and that caused me to not be able to move into a fancy apartment complex once upon a time (though, mostly, they were using it as an excuse to discriminate against a "dirty truck driver" who didn't fit the kind of people they wanted in their yuppie complex, which they basically told me) but my current landlord could care less, as long as you pay your rent (not necessarily on time) and don't cause any problems you're golden.
    - niij 8y ago
      Why would an apartment owner want to rent to someone who had been evicted? I would assume that would be the #1 thing they look out for. Applicants who didn't hold up their end of a rental agreement is a strong indicator. If your employer paid you late because they were "bad at paying their bills" you'd be pretty upset, as would most people.

solarkraft 8y ago

There's a purpose. Companies pay them, there's a market. The business case is solid, but you can certainly make an ethical argument against it.

spaceribs 8y ago
Companies already have this service provided by the judicial system, it's called bankruptcy and it's a public record. If theres a market for more detail than that, it's a bullshit market, because how that report gets generated is entirely arbitrary.
- harryh 8y ago
  "People who have paid back previous loans on schedule are more likely to pay back future loans on schedule" is not arbitrary.
  - spaceribs 8y ago
    That is already described via bankruptcy.
    - harryh 8y ago
      That is not at all true. You don't go bankrupt when you are late paying back a loan or miss payments or even default on a loan completely.
    - Haul4ss 8y ago
      No it's not. You can be behind on payments without filing for bankruptcy. You can have a debt sent to collections without filing for bankruptcy. There are all sorts of cases where a person is not trustworthy with money that do not show up in the public record. That's why credit bureaus came to exist, and although their business practices and data security leave much to be desired, I understand why they exist in the first place.
      - 8y ago

tptacek 8y ago

"Equifax and what they do" replaced a previous informal system without mechanical credit scoring that was far, far more discriminatory than the one we have now. The average HN reader --- and especially the average angry political HN commenter --- would not be happier in a world without credit ratings agencies. The fallacy is that in such a world world, you can get credit (or rent an apartment or whatever) without jumping through hoops. In fact, what really happens is that the hoops get more arbitrary, less standardized, less accountable, and more plentiful. It is for that reason that we should be especially unhappy about the way the law handles breaches like the one that happened at Equifax. These are companies that have decided to insinuate themselves in a crucial component of the consumer finance industry, and they should be held to a higher standard than we're holding them now.