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Stories like this, the Uber story, and the recent one about Google tracking location even when you opt out, are why I'm looking forward to Purism 5 with PureOS

by danjoc 8y ago

Stories like this, the Uber story, and the recent one about Google tracking location even when you opt out, are why I'm looking forward to Purism 5 with PureOS and kill switches.

andrei_says_ 8y ago
I am really hoping that one day we can legislate respect for privacy and be able to use mass produced widely available hardware and software. A solution for a few outliers doesn’t really influence the big picture. I am very interested in what individuals/institutions support privacy at scale. I am aware of the EFF. Who else?
- danjoc 8y ago
  The EFF is just astroturfing, https://thebaffler.com/salvos/all-effd-up-levine https://thebaffler.com/salvos/all-effd-up-levine >A solution for a few outliers doesn’t really influence the big picture. There's nothing stopping anyone from buying a Purism 5. If someone doesn't care about their privacy, they don't deserve it. Freedom isn't free, and all that.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    If I buy that phone, and I get a weather app… it’s going to need to know where I am to provide me the forecast. And once I give it that permission, how does the phone/OS prevent them from selling the data that I gave them permission to have? It doesn’t.
    - danjoc 8y ago
      > it’s going to need to know where I am to provide me the forecast Why would you think that? I don't need to give a weather app my location. It only needs to have one or more locations of interest to me. My weather widget pulls multiple locations for me, and has no access to my location data.
      - fooker 8y ago
        By that logic, nothing needs your location.
        vultour 8y ago
        Not sure what kind of strawman you're building here but there's quite a big difference between giving location to a map app that will help you if you're lost, and a weather app. Having to use location data to get weather seems like the pinnacle of laziness to me, if you don't know where you are than you have bigger problems than the weather.
      - jasonlotito 8y ago
        So, if I don't give it my location, how does it give me the weather at my location?
  - A2017U1 8y ago
    >There's nothing stopping anyone from buying a Purism 5 Apart from the fact that it doesn't actually exist yet. Not to mention it's already a badly specced phone commanding top dollar being made by a small company that could easily go broke in a year. I'm all for what they are trying to achieve and really hope they succeed, but history is full of privacy phones that have failed spectacularly. For half the price I could get a flagship Xiaomi, flash LineageOS on it and have a completely degoogled high quality Android phone likely supported for most of the next decade.
    - danjoc 8y ago
      >Apart from the fact that it doesn't actually exist yet. Well, sure, I'll give you that point, but it's going to happen. >it's already a badly specced phone commanding top dollar The selling point isn't the specs. It's the RYF certification and kill switches. Even if they can't get the RYF, it's still a better option than anything else out there. >being made by a small company that could easily go broke in a year I really doubt that. They have a laptop business already. They've been doing hardware for a while. This one might ship months late, but I'm confident it will happen. >For half the price I could get a flagship Xiaomi, flash LineageOS on it and have a completely degoogled high quality Android phone likely supported for most of the next decade. Yep, and you still have a sealed battery, a backdoored baseband, and binary blobs. The iMX.8 is pretty sweet. It has open source GPU. Can't say that for mali or powervr. I can consider making Librem 5 my convergence device.
      - A2017U1 8y ago
        > you still have a sealed battery, a backdoored baseband, and binary blobs A fair call, but I'm of no importance to China and am betting on lineage lasting. Time will tell. As snarky as my comment came across, I'm entirely keen for purism to win this uphill battle, but I won't be pre-ordering.
alphabettsy 8y ago
How does having some kill switch solve the issue of an app that needs geolocation selling the data or otherwise using it in a way other than you intended?
- danjoc 8y ago
  Having an OS and apps I can trust to not send location data solves that problem. The kill switches ensures no roving bugs, modem AT commands, and passive tower triangulation when I'm not using the radio. Pretty simple really.
  - alphabettsy 8y ago
    Only using “app you can trust” seriously limits what you can do on your device. This might be a solution for you, but it’s really not a solution to the privacy problem, it’s duct-tape on something that needs to be fixed on a larger scale.
  - fooker 8y ago
    Do you trust the compiler/VM? How about the hardware? Maybe the fab too? http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack At some level, you have to trust or decide what is tolerable for you.
    - AsyncAwait 8y ago
      That argument is so tired. Just because there's no perfect privacy, doesn't mean you can't significantly increase it. At some point you also have to trust that the chair you're sitting on will hold you and the one that isn't visibly weak has the best chance of doing that.

by danjoc 8y ago

Stories like this, the Uber story, and the recent one about Google tracking location even when you opt out, are why I'm looking forward to Purism 5 with PureOS and kill switches.

andrei_says_ 8y ago

I am really hoping that one day we can legislate respect for privacy and be able to use mass produced widely available hardware and software. A solution for a few outliers doesn’t really influence the big picture. I am very interested in what individuals/institutions support privacy at scale. I am aware of the EFF. Who else?

danjoc 8y ago
The EFF is just astroturfing, https://thebaffler.com/salvos/all-effd-up-levine https://thebaffler.com/salvos/all-effd-up-levine >A solution for a few outliers doesn’t really influence the big picture. There's nothing stopping anyone from buying a Purism 5. If someone doesn't care about their privacy, they don't deserve it. Freedom isn't free, and all that.
- MBCook 8y ago
  If I buy that phone, and I get a weather app… it’s going to need to know where I am to provide me the forecast. And once I give it that permission, how does the phone/OS prevent them from selling the data that I gave them permission to have? It doesn’t.
  - danjoc 8y ago
    > it’s going to need to know where I am to provide me the forecast Why would you think that? I don't need to give a weather app my location. It only needs to have one or more locations of interest to me. My weather widget pulls multiple locations for me, and has no access to my location data.
    - fooker 8y ago
      By that logic, nothing needs your location.
      - vultour 8y ago
        Not sure what kind of strawman you're building here but there's quite a big difference between giving location to a map app that will help you if you're lost, and a weather app. Having to use location data to get weather seems like the pinnacle of laziness to me, if you don't know where you are than you have bigger problems than the weather.
    - jasonlotito 8y ago
      So, if I don't give it my location, how does it give me the weather at my location?
- A2017U1 8y ago
  >There's nothing stopping anyone from buying a Purism 5 Apart from the fact that it doesn't actually exist yet. Not to mention it's already a badly specced phone commanding top dollar being made by a small company that could easily go broke in a year. I'm all for what they are trying to achieve and really hope they succeed, but history is full of privacy phones that have failed spectacularly. For half the price I could get a flagship Xiaomi, flash LineageOS on it and have a completely degoogled high quality Android phone likely supported for most of the next decade.
  - danjoc 8y ago
    >Apart from the fact that it doesn't actually exist yet. Well, sure, I'll give you that point, but it's going to happen. >it's already a badly specced phone commanding top dollar The selling point isn't the specs. It's the RYF certification and kill switches. Even if they can't get the RYF, it's still a better option than anything else out there. >being made by a small company that could easily go broke in a year I really doubt that. They have a laptop business already. They've been doing hardware for a while. This one might ship months late, but I'm confident it will happen. >For half the price I could get a flagship Xiaomi, flash LineageOS on it and have a completely degoogled high quality Android phone likely supported for most of the next decade. Yep, and you still have a sealed battery, a backdoored baseband, and binary blobs. The iMX.8 is pretty sweet. It has open source GPU. Can't say that for mali or powervr. I can consider making Librem 5 my convergence device.
    - A2017U1 8y ago
      > you still have a sealed battery, a backdoored baseband, and binary blobs A fair call, but I'm of no importance to China and am betting on lineage lasting. Time will tell. As snarky as my comment came across, I'm entirely keen for purism to win this uphill battle, but I won't be pre-ordering.

alphabettsy 8y ago

How does having some kill switch solve the issue of an app that needs geolocation selling the data or otherwise using it in a way other than you intended?

danjoc 8y ago
Having an OS and apps I can trust to not send location data solves that problem. The kill switches ensures no roving bugs, modem AT commands, and passive tower triangulation when I'm not using the radio. Pretty simple really.
- alphabettsy 8y ago
  Only using “app you can trust” seriously limits what you can do on your device. This might be a solution for you, but it’s really not a solution to the privacy problem, it’s duct-tape on something that needs to be fixed on a larger scale.
- fooker 8y ago
  Do you trust the compiler/VM? How about the hardware? Maybe the fab too? http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack At some level, you have to trust or decide what is tolerable for you.
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    That argument is so tired. Just because there's no perfect privacy, doesn't mean you can't significantly increase it. At some point you also have to trust that the chair you're sitting on will hold you and the one that isn't visibly weak has the best chance of doing that.