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>After that he had a range of little annoying problems, many of which were likely software bugs, but then he (actually his GF) experienced something in autopilo

>After that he had a range of little annoying problems, many of which were likely software bugs, but then he (actually his GF) experienced something in autopilot mode known on the Tesla forums as "shadow braking" -- the car braking hard on the highway because it seems to see the shadow of an overpass and think it's a wall. This is extremely dangerous. It was on the I-405 (SoCal) going 70-80mph, and such a thing could easily cause a rear end collision. Why is he not leaving the beta of Autopilot then? The car would still be better than the competition in most domain (acceleration, navigation, range...) wouldn't it? Does your friend believe the car is worthless if it isn't on Autopilot? All benchmarks of driver assist systems show that Tesla is far better than comparable cars, so it's pretty dumb to ask for a buy-back for a car because of such a small and extra feature. He could have asked for a buy-back of the Autopilot option but then, your comment wouldn't add to the conversation (that would be a non story, actually, considering all the Tesla owners who love it). What does he think of the rest of the car?

api 8y ago
It's been an overall bad experience. Here's a rough chronology: (1) Serious and clearly visible body panel alignment issues. They got fixed, but it took a while and Tesla didn't have a loaner car. There was also a scratch on the car when it was delivered. (2) Door handles not extending. This problem occurred multiple times. The first "fix" was to reboot the computer. (3) A whole host of software bugs including constant apparently false (according to Tesla) warnings about suspension problems, inability to pair with Bluetooth devices, UI glitches, inability to lock the car (turned out this was a 'feature' but one with no documentation and no UI feedback), etc. (4) Dangerous autopilot failure modes. The car's drive train is indeed excellent. It accelerates great, has great range, and performs and drives well. The rest of the car however is really problematic. The big thing causing him to want to return the car is that Tesla service has apparently been less than helpful and evasive. It's been back and forth, back and forth, back and forth... The dangerous failure modes in the autopilot are the brick that broke the camel's back. He said he's been many times more patient than Tesla than he would have been with any other car company because he like me believes in what Tesla is trying to do.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  Given that Tesla owners are the most satisfied (cf. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/12/21/tesla-porsche-top-consumer-reports-automotive-satisfaction-survey/969301001/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/12/21/tesla-po...), that implies that the other owners are even more happy with their Tesla that I would have expected. All surveys about panel gaps points to Tesla being above average (expect in the first few cars out of the line, which are generally owned by employees). If your friends' Tesla has serious software bug, I'm curious to know his experience with other brands! Unless he can't stand a small bug in an optional, beta feature. As for autopilot, he knows he can turn the autosteer off and still get the best ADAS available on the market? >inability to lock the car (turned out this was a 'feature' but one with no documentation and no UI feedback), etc. I don't own a Tesla and only test drive one and somehow I was aware of that. Looks like PEBCAK to me.
  - ummonk 8y ago
    >If your friends' Tesla has serious software bug, I'm curious to know his experience with other brands! Most brands have actual knobs and handles instead of putting everything in a digital interface in the entertainment console.
  - mbreese 8y ago
    Most of this you’re arguing against someone’s subjective opinions, which makes no sense. They are unhappy with the car and service and are taking advantage of a program to return the car. This is how it’s supposed to work. The customer has less bad will against the company and gets out of a car they don’t like. And other potential customers can see that there is less risk for them is they don’t like their new Tesla. But this part... Unless he can't stand a small bug in an optional, beta feature. That’s not okay. Shadow braking is not a small bug. It’s a dangerous thing that can happen. Calling something “beta” doesn’t work when you’re driving down the road at 70 MPH. That’s just plain dangerous. Putting something like that out into the public as a “beta” feature puts not only the customer but everyone else on the road in danger. I have no problem with a company testing car features on the road with test drivers who are well trained (with well marked cars). But “beta” doesn’t belong on the highway in the hands of a customer.
ummonk 8y ago
My Subaru never shadow brakes. Its driver assistance technology is certainly more rudimentary than Tesla's (only has lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control, and the adaptive cruise control doesn't see speedups far ahead and doesn't catch people switching into my lane until they're already halfway switched), but it is very reliable at doing what I expect to, and not having any dangerous shadow-braking like that.
- dwild 8y ago
  > My Subaru never shadow brakes. Do your Subaru is electric? Does it range compare to the Model 3? How does it compare to its acceleration? Don't ever buy a product for a feature in beta. For the sake of anyone, never ever EVER do that.
  - cliffordthedog 8y ago
    Then maybe Tesla shouldn't be selling their murder machine.
  - ummonk 8y ago
    My Subaru is not electric. Its range is significantly higher than the Model 3. It has much lower acceleration, but it's plenty to meet my needs (and indeed, I did not get the version with higher engine power because I do not need high acceleration). It also cost me half as much as a Model 3 would. On the other hand, none of the features on my Subaru are in beta. Most importantly, it has fully functioning adaptive cruise control, which is a crucial feature for making highway drives more pleasant (particularly when driving in traffic), and in this day and age, I wouldn't buy a commuter vehicle which lacks a fully functioning adaptive cruise control system.

api 8y ago

It's been an overall bad experience. Here's a rough chronology: (1) Serious and clearly visible body panel alignment issues. They got fixed, but it took a while and Tesla didn't have a loaner car. There was also a scratch on the car when it was delivered. (2) Door handles not extending. This problem occurred multiple times. The first "fix" was to reboot the computer. (3) A whole host of software bugs including constant apparently false (according to Tesla) warnings about suspension problems, inability to pair with Bluetooth devices, UI glitches, inability to lock the car (turned out this was a 'feature' but one with no documentation and no UI feedback), etc. (4) Dangerous autopilot failure modes. The car's drive train is indeed excellent. It accelerates great, has great range, and performs and drives well. The rest of the car however is really problematic. The big thing causing him to want to return the car is that Tesla service has apparently been less than helpful and evasive. It's been back and forth, back and forth, back and forth... The dangerous failure modes in the autopilot are the brick that broke the camel's back. He said he's been many times more patient than Tesla than he would have been with any other car company because he like me believes in what Tesla is trying to do.

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
Given that Tesla owners are the most satisfied (cf. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/12/21/tesla-porsche-top-consumer-reports-automotive-satisfaction-survey/969301001/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/12/21/tesla-po...), that implies that the other owners are even more happy with their Tesla that I would have expected. All surveys about panel gaps points to Tesla being above average (expect in the first few cars out of the line, which are generally owned by employees). If your friends' Tesla has serious software bug, I'm curious to know his experience with other brands! Unless he can't stand a small bug in an optional, beta feature. As for autopilot, he knows he can turn the autosteer off and still get the best ADAS available on the market? >inability to lock the car (turned out this was a 'feature' but one with no documentation and no UI feedback), etc. I don't own a Tesla and only test drive one and somehow I was aware of that. Looks like PEBCAK to me.
- ummonk 8y ago
  >If your friends' Tesla has serious software bug, I'm curious to know his experience with other brands! Most brands have actual knobs and handles instead of putting everything in a digital interface in the entertainment console.
- mbreese 8y ago
  Most of this you’re arguing against someone’s subjective opinions, which makes no sense. They are unhappy with the car and service and are taking advantage of a program to return the car. This is how it’s supposed to work. The customer has less bad will against the company and gets out of a car they don’t like. And other potential customers can see that there is less risk for them is they don’t like their new Tesla. But this part... Unless he can't stand a small bug in an optional, beta feature. That’s not okay. Shadow braking is not a small bug. It’s a dangerous thing that can happen. Calling something “beta” doesn’t work when you’re driving down the road at 70 MPH. That’s just plain dangerous. Putting something like that out into the public as a “beta” feature puts not only the customer but everyone else on the road in danger. I have no problem with a company testing car features on the road with test drivers who are well trained (with well marked cars). But “beta” doesn’t belong on the highway in the hands of a customer.

ummonk 8y ago

My Subaru never shadow brakes. Its driver assistance technology is certainly more rudimentary than Tesla's (only has lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control, and the adaptive cruise control doesn't see speedups far ahead and doesn't catch people switching into my lane until they're already halfway switched), but it is very reliable at doing what I expect to, and not having any dangerous shadow-braking like that.

dwild 8y ago
> My Subaru never shadow brakes. Do your Subaru is electric? Does it range compare to the Model 3? How does it compare to its acceleration? Don't ever buy a product for a feature in beta. For the sake of anyone, never ever EVER do that.
- cliffordthedog 8y ago
  Then maybe Tesla shouldn't be selling their murder machine.
- ummonk 8y ago
  My Subaru is not electric. Its range is significantly higher than the Model 3. It has much lower acceleration, but it's plenty to meet my needs (and indeed, I did not get the version with higher engine power because I do not need high acceleration). It also cost me half as much as a Model 3 would. On the other hand, none of the features on my Subaru are in beta. Most importantly, it has fully functioning adaptive cruise control, which is a crucial feature for making highway drives more pleasant (particularly when driving in traffic), and in this day and age, I wouldn't buy a commuter vehicle which lacks a fully functioning adaptive cruise control system.