6 ms·

Keybase also silently subverts smartcards for in-memory keys per my findings here: https://github.com/keybase/keybase-issues/issues/1946 https://github.com/keyb

by lrvick 8y ago

Keybase also silently subverts smartcards for in-memory keys per my findings here: https://github.com/keybase/keybase-issues/issues/1946 https://github.com/keybase/keybase-issues/issues/1946 In general I find Keybase to be a step forward in user experience and two steps backwards in terms of actual security. They just don't seem to care about the latter at all and have not demonstrated any cooperation with standards bodies like the OpenPGP working group where members have expressed interest multiple times in adding generic URL uids to the openpgp public key itself to replicate and decentralize the idea of social media based trust bootstrapping (the one good idea from Keybase in spite of terrible execution). Instead they insist on their complex proprietary walled garden system that does not integrate with existing keyservers and throws everything on the bitcoin blockchain for reasons. Keybase has become the IE of crypto and I can't take any security project seriously that even -integrates- with them.

Leace 8y ago
This description perfectly captures my impression on Keybase too (especially the part on unwillingness to decentralize their social-media based identities). For the record it soon may be possible to use native GnuPG through the browser extension: > Installer: New optional module "Browser Integration" to register GnuPG as backend for Mailvelope 3.0. Source: https://www.gpg4win.org/change-history.html https://www.gpg4win.org/change-history.html But given Keybase's track record I already know they're not interested in that.
- lrvick 8y ago
  Any trust went out the window when I realized I could pull out my smartcard and continue signing things. My head exploded.
  - nickik 8y ago
    You just don't seem to understand how the service you are using works and guess what. Its different then pure PG. It was not designed to work with your smart-card as it is not primarily about that. Guess what, other people like me just realized that Keybase was not designed to be used like that and didn't use the smart-card together with Keybase. I guess you can fault them for not saying that explicitly but since the made no mention of smart-cards and didn't evolve the security model in that direction it was pretty clear that that was not what they were about and therefore I did not expect it to be optimal to be used like that.
    - lrvick 8y ago
      They used my openpgp key to setup my account. They link it on my profile as my key... I guess this gave me some crazy idea this was the key they actually use, not some silently created in memory keys that don't use the openpgp spec at all.
nickik 8y ago
They don't throw everything on the blockchain for no reason. They specifically back up the root of the merkel tree into the blockchain. Honestly, the OpenPGP world has so competently failed at usability and is only adopted by the most hard core of nerds. Even I have stopped using it for the most part. And that it is two steps back in security overall is just not true. Maybe in some individual features that you care about, but not in general. And the same thing counts that always counted, crypto that nobody is using is not protecting anything. The have mostly moved on from GPG any a different libraries now. The GPG is mostly a legacy feature.
- Angostura 8y ago
  > crypto that nobody is using is not protecting anything. There's only one thing that's worse. Crypto that people think is protecting them, but which isn't.
  - nickik 8y ago
    Yeah but for the most part Keybase is not that. The person above point out one special case and not for the whole system. For the most part Keybase crypto is modern, effective and easy to use.
- api 8y ago
  > the OpenPGP world has so competently failed at usability Don't you know? There's a rule that all cryptographic software must be arcane and obscure and virtually impossible to use correctly by anyone other than obsessive nerds.
- lrvick 8y ago
  We already have a distributed backup system: the keyserver network. There are also efforts like DANE to put it in DNS. They however refuse to sync with it. They only sync with their own proprietary servers using their own protocol. Also there are projects in the OpenPGP world making very easy to use workflows and interfaces without centralizing or breaking standards. OpenKeychain for android is a fantastic example of this. I use OpenKeychain on my phone and can sign files, access passwords, or decrypt email by tapping my yubikey to it. I can tap someone elses key to my phone to import their key to my addressbook. No terminals or fuss and at no point does any key come in contact with system memory of any device involved so I have strong assurances it can't be stolen even if my phone is totally compromised. A big example of the 2 steps backwards of keybase: they use keys in system memory and abandoned any compatibility with the openpgp smartcard spec, yubikeys, etc. The industry is moving to smartcards for very good reason: malware is a thing and it can use/steal keys from system memory without user interaction. A key stored in a yubikey 4 OTOH never touches system memory and requires a physical touch for each operation. You can have usability without throwing out security and standards. Keybase is just another in a long line of companies ignorantly throwing out any security features they don't understand using usability as an excuse for bad engineering.
giancarlostoro 8y ago
Have you tried / compared Wire[0] by chance? I love Wire cause it's simple, my only recommendation is to register from a browser on your desktop, it asks for your number on the phone app, but you don't need to register like that. I also like that you can delete your account and nuke everything. The back-end is open source as well. Though KeyBase gets the UI / UX factor perfect, I wish some hardcore crypto devs would take KeyBase and make it more rock solid. [0]: https://wire.com/ https://wire.com/
- ReverseCold 8y ago
  Wire's apps feel slow and bloated on both desktop and mobile. Compared to Telegram, Wire is almost unusable.
  - walterbell 8y ago
    As a user, Wire has been fast and reliable and usable (even by non-techies) on iOS for several years, across a wide range of network conditions and hostile networks. They are contributing to an IETF protocol (“MLS”) for E2E messaging, which is a long-term path to messenger interoperability.
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      I have not had the described slowness on Android and Windows (I think I tried it on Linux too) so I'm not sure what the parent commentator is speaking of. Edit: Relevant: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00
    - thwarted 8y ago
      a long-term path to messenger interoperability. I remember when we had that before E2E was popularized, it was standardized, and then walled gardens broke their interoperability in the name of (claimed) better user experience and user numbers.
MagnificentSpam 8y ago
What is up with this issue? https://github.com/keybase/client/issues/13560 https://github.com/keybase/client/issues/13560 Is that a normal thing to do on github?
- gjm11 8y ago
  Looks to me like someone posted spam and it got removed. And yes, unfortunately, that's a thing on github these days.
  - eganist 8y ago
    Unless the title was lifted from another issue for the purpose of spam... ...this actually looks like a potential security weakness that was purged from the public space. (CWE-921)
    - wu_tang_chris 8y ago
      it wasn't purged, per say. if you click "edited by maxtaco" on KirtiRamchandani's first comment, you get a dropdown to select the versions, and you can still find the original text.
- l_t 8y ago
  Changing the title of an issue, presumably so it doesn't show up in search results? Deleting the body of the issue? Not leaving any explanation? Yeah, that doesn't seem normal to me. Can't say I approve.

by lrvick 8y ago

Leace 8y ago

This description perfectly captures my impression on Keybase too (especially the part on unwillingness to decentralize their social-media based identities). For the record it soon may be possible to use native GnuPG through the browser extension: > Installer: New optional module "Browser Integration" to register GnuPG as backend for Mailvelope 3.0. Source: https://www.gpg4win.org/change-history.html https://www.gpg4win.org/change-history.html But given Keybase's track record I already know they're not interested in that.

lrvick 8y ago
Any trust went out the window when I realized I could pull out my smartcard and continue signing things. My head exploded.
- nickik 8y ago
  You just don't seem to understand how the service you are using works and guess what. Its different then pure PG. It was not designed to work with your smart-card as it is not primarily about that. Guess what, other people like me just realized that Keybase was not designed to be used like that and didn't use the smart-card together with Keybase. I guess you can fault them for not saying that explicitly but since the made no mention of smart-cards and didn't evolve the security model in that direction it was pretty clear that that was not what they were about and therefore I did not expect it to be optimal to be used like that.
  - lrvick 8y ago
    They used my openpgp key to setup my account. They link it on my profile as my key... I guess this gave me some crazy idea this was the key they actually use, not some silently created in memory keys that don't use the openpgp spec at all.

nickik 8y ago

They don't throw everything on the blockchain for no reason. They specifically back up the root of the merkel tree into the blockchain. Honestly, the OpenPGP world has so competently failed at usability and is only adopted by the most hard core of nerds. Even I have stopped using it for the most part. And that it is two steps back in security overall is just not true. Maybe in some individual features that you care about, but not in general. And the same thing counts that always counted, crypto that nobody is using is not protecting anything. The have mostly moved on from GPG any a different libraries now. The GPG is mostly a legacy feature.

Angostura 8y ago
> crypto that nobody is using is not protecting anything. There's only one thing that's worse. Crypto that people think is protecting them, but which isn't.
- nickik 8y ago
  Yeah but for the most part Keybase is not that. The person above point out one special case and not for the whole system. For the most part Keybase crypto is modern, effective and easy to use.
api 8y ago
> the OpenPGP world has so competently failed at usability Don't you know? There's a rule that all cryptographic software must be arcane and obscure and virtually impossible to use correctly by anyone other than obsessive nerds.
lrvick 8y ago
We already have a distributed backup system: the keyserver network. There are also efforts like DANE to put it in DNS. They however refuse to sync with it. They only sync with their own proprietary servers using their own protocol. Also there are projects in the OpenPGP world making very easy to use workflows and interfaces without centralizing or breaking standards. OpenKeychain for android is a fantastic example of this. I use OpenKeychain on my phone and can sign files, access passwords, or decrypt email by tapping my yubikey to it. I can tap someone elses key to my phone to import their key to my addressbook. No terminals or fuss and at no point does any key come in contact with system memory of any device involved so I have strong assurances it can't be stolen even if my phone is totally compromised. A big example of the 2 steps backwards of keybase: they use keys in system memory and abandoned any compatibility with the openpgp smartcard spec, yubikeys, etc. The industry is moving to smartcards for very good reason: malware is a thing and it can use/steal keys from system memory without user interaction. A key stored in a yubikey 4 OTOH never touches system memory and requires a physical touch for each operation. You can have usability without throwing out security and standards. Keybase is just another in a long line of companies ignorantly throwing out any security features they don't understand using usability as an excuse for bad engineering.

giancarlostoro 8y ago

Have you tried / compared Wire[0] by chance? I love Wire cause it's simple, my only recommendation is to register from a browser on your desktop, it asks for your number on the phone app, but you don't need to register like that. I also like that you can delete your account and nuke everything. The back-end is open source as well. Though KeyBase gets the UI / UX factor perfect, I wish some hardcore crypto devs would take KeyBase and make it more rock solid. [0]: https://wire.com/ https://wire.com/

ReverseCold 8y ago
Wire's apps feel slow and bloated on both desktop and mobile. Compared to Telegram, Wire is almost unusable.
- walterbell 8y ago
  As a user, Wire has been fast and reliable and usable (even by non-techies) on iOS for several years, across a wide range of network conditions and hostile networks. They are contributing to an IETF protocol (“MLS”) for E2E messaging, which is a long-term path to messenger interoperability.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    I have not had the described slowness on Android and Windows (I think I tried it on Linux too) so I'm not sure what the parent commentator is speaking of. Edit: Relevant: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00
  - thwarted 8y ago
    a long-term path to messenger interoperability. I remember when we had that before E2E was popularized, it was standardized, and then walled gardens broke their interoperability in the name of (claimed) better user experience and user numbers.

MagnificentSpam 8y ago

What is up with this issue? https://github.com/keybase/client/issues/13560 https://github.com/keybase/client/issues/13560 Is that a normal thing to do on github?

gjm11 8y ago
Looks to me like someone posted spam and it got removed. And yes, unfortunately, that's a thing on github these days.
- eganist 8y ago
  Unless the title was lifted from another issue for the purpose of spam... ...this actually looks like a potential security weakness that was purged from the public space. (CWE-921)
  - wu_tang_chris 8y ago
    it wasn't purged, per say. if you click "edited by maxtaco" on KirtiRamchandani's first comment, you get a dropdown to select the versions, and you can still find the original text.
l_t 8y ago
Changing the title of an issue, presumably so it doesn't show up in search results? Deleting the body of the issue? Not leaving any explanation? Yeah, that doesn't seem normal to me. Can't say I approve.