6 ms·

The First Quieter Megacity, Thanks to Electric Vehicles

47 points by mariushn 8y ago

diafygi 8y ago
Not affiliated with them (other than just friends), but EV Complete[1] has seemed to tap into the whole wtf-do-i-need-an-ev-now thing. There's a joke in the cleantech space about how people in cleantech can't even understand how energy efficiency, solar, batteries, or EVs affect them, so how the hell can non-cleantech people understand the benefits of what we do. Overall, we need help. We have the tech and the vision, but most of the cleantech space needs help on the marketing, education, and execution. [1]: https://www.evcomplete.com/ https://www.evcomplete.com/
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  In the EV space it looks like cleantech is getting a lot of help. From the article: * began exporting its vehicles to the U.S. BYD has inked deals to supply electric buses to Facebook Inc.’s sprawling headquarters in Menlo Park, Calif., the transit authority in Long Beach, Calif., and the campuses of Stanford University and the University of California at Los Angeles. The most recent victory came in August, when BYD won a bid to supply all Georgia government entities with EVs. The company is using the immense financial backing at home to its advantage. A $9 billion credit line from China Development Bank, for example, is helping BYD place electric monorails in Brazil, Egypt, and the Philippines. And government grants that cover a third of the cost of building an electric bus. It's hard to imagine any of the Western democracies doing this, in the near future.
adrianN 8y ago
Meanwhile, established car makers are twiddling their thumbs and paying their lobbyists to delay the phase out of internal combustion engines for as long as possible. In Germany the Deutsche Umwelthilfe has to literally sue ever city separately to force their hands to do something about pollution. Bavaria simply ignores the court orders. Efforts to improve bikeability and public transport plan on multi decade timelines. Here in Berlin there are plans to extend the subway that are older than I am and are still being discussed. Electric busses are somehow not suitable for cities outside of China, we're still "evaluating options".
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  It's starting to look like, in an effort to democratise democracy, what we're actually doing is turning everything in to bikeshedding. In an effort to be all-inclusive, and generally not upset anyone, we're getting almost nothing done while China just steams ahead. I'm probably being a bit hyperbolic, but you get the idea. While we're all enraptured by the tomfoolery of our political "leaders", China is building. Who knows if it'll all work out, but you can't blame them for trying. Whereas you can certainly blame us for being paralysed.
  - pasabagi 8y ago
    I think democracy isn't really an engineering project - it's a communications medium. So while it seems slow and full of bikeshedding, that's because if you don't work out everything procedurally, people turn to other channels. The chinese are really conscious of this - it's why they are investing so heavily in reducing corruption, which is the archetypal sign of people 'working around' the system. It's possible that with new technology, they'll succeed - but traditionally, non-democratic projects don't work out because the official channels are useless, and the center doesn't know what the periphery is doing. People will behave as long as the economy is growing, but as soon as it contracts, everybody will start turning to crime or politics.
    - doombolt 8y ago
      > they are investing so heavily in reducing corruption I am extremely sceptical about such claims. Claiming to fight corruption is usually more of PR stunt. To really fight corruption you have to do institutionalized changes, such as increasing transparency, which is painful for most of regimes on Earth. Fighting corruption without changing the system is busy work and reality show.
      - pasabagi 8y ago
        I'm actually pretty convinced. I think the Party is basically fairly smart, and they are extremely aware of the threats to their rule. For instance, after the first gulf war, they started extensive military reforms, presumably seeing how Saddam's gigantic, tank-heavy, cold-war era army fared against new technology, and seeing that the same could happen to them. I think time and time again, they've moved very fast to neutralize threats - and as I see it, there are few that would be more pressing than general disillusionment, the normalization of graft and cynicism. It's this culture that really killed the USSR. When nobody believes in your system, it doesn't matter how absolute your power is, or how utterly defeated your enemies are. Everybody in your administration will be essentially working for themselves, and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.
mixedbit 8y ago
Chinese move to EVs in impressive. In Shanghai to register a new car you need to wait on average more than a year and pay an equivalent of several thousand dollars. Unless you buy an electric car, in which case you can register it immediately without any payment.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Sincerely, screw the fossil fuel / internal combustion lobby. If there was any leadership in a political leader here in the West we'd have done something similar already.
olivermarks 8y ago
Reality check 'As Shenzhen’s housing prices skyrocket to rival Hong Kong’s, real estate for charging stations isn’t easy to find, and then they have to be fitted to the grid, says BYD spokesman Xiao Haiping. At Shenzhen Eastern Bus Co., one of BYD’s three bus-fleet partners, the monthly electricity bill of 17 million yuan is one-third of what its diesel bill used to be. The company has 15,000 employees and 5,800 buses, which use seven charging stations. Most of the buses are charged at night, when electricity is cheaper, though they sometimes have to top off in the afternoon. Each bus takes about three hours for a full charge and has a range of 250 kilometers (155 miles).' These are coal powered buses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#Coal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#Co...
- notauser 8y ago
  EVs are more efficient (in terms of emissions per mile) even when powered by fossil fuel grid generators, because power station generators are so much larger. They can also be fitted with big, centralised, emissions scrubbers. And the generators can be further away from cities, And the generators can be replaced with renewable or nuclear power without requiring any changes to the vehicle fleet.
- bildung 8y ago
  China already produces over 25% of its energy using renewable sources, as per your link.
  - olivermarks 8y ago
    What scares me about the massive push to electric vehicles - Most grids' even in recent cities such as built in china, are inadequate to supply demand and basically don't exist - In China you can buy an EV with no penalties, try and buy an ICE and there are fees and long waits - What will we do with all the batteries once they are exhausted? The range and recharge time on EV's is crap and there is virtually no infrastructure in place for charging if and when it all scales up, yet car firms are saying they will be all electric by 2020 (Tata/JaguarLandRover for example) On what planet is this going to work? - When EVs have violent crashes the batteries keep reigniting for days. What will future scrap yards look like? I'm all for hybrid vehicles but there is something sinister about this flamboyant pr piece about the benefits of EV's...I just don't see enough infrastructure or tech maturity for the foreseeable future
doombolt 8y ago
I wonder how EVs really compare to trolleybuses (tech from XX century) pollution and money-wise? EVs have more route flexibility, and don't need expensive infrastructure, but they need expensive (and polluting) batteries and spend idle time charging. The city I live in ponders EV-Trolleybus hybrid. I can routinely see them minding their business with poles down. Still I'm not really sure if they'll waste a lot of time manually setting it up and down and whether pure EV is a better idea.
- baybal2 8y ago
  Shenzhen already tried trams, they can't survive local driving etiquette at all. The few tram lines are all in outskirts of the city.
  - doombolt 8y ago
    Trolleybuses are not trams - you can still block them, but it takes much more effort. With Chinese city density and love of infrastructure I would have expected them to have a massive number of trolleybuses.
    - baybal2 8y ago
      I think they wouldn't survive either.
peterwwillis 8y ago
Buses also contribute the beepbeepbeepbeep and PSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH and "Pedestrian, bus is turning" sounds. Living across from a bus stop, I all but ignored each of these. My city soundscape has mostly hidden the sound of engines, save the rare Harley or Hemi. The sounds that penetrate the air (for me) are of both buses and cars blasting horns, music blaring, tires screeching, and the zooming of cars through air. That, and people taking loudly/yelling/screaming, the sounds of barking dogs, car alarms, fire truck/ambulance/police sirens, and air conditioners kicking on next door, and of course sounds from neighboring apartments. But that's nice that the buses run quieter now.
- F_r_k 8y ago
  What are these "pedestrians, bus is turning" sounds ? I'm Switzerland I have never heard those. Is every bus turning emitting these sounds ? Seems crazy to me.
  - peterwwillis 8y ago
    It's a sound made by the free shuttle buses in Baltimore, Maryland. But it's no more audible than the beeping and kneeling-bus air compressor. I have the feeling it was added for blind pedestrians, as we have some blind schools nearby.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    >I'm in Sweden and I've never heard these... I'm in America and I've never heard these. I think it may be something unique to that poster's city?
newnewpdro 8y ago
Am I wrong in thinking BYD is quite the existential threat to Tesla in the long-term?
- tim333 8y ago
  They seem to be targeting different ends of the market - high performance vs cheap busses and taxis. I think Porsche and Mercedes are more direct threats.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Tesla will never pay off for its stratospheric valuation if they can't dominate mass market. Chinese certainly will though.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    It looks like a huge missed opportunity for Tesla to not be getting all those domestic mass transit contracts at the very least. Tesla isn't laser focused on high-end exotic cars, look at the Tesla Semi for example, and energy storage. I think Tesla's existing targets are more a product of their limits to production scale than anything else.
jacobmoe 8y ago
The noise is annoying, but as someone who jogs daily in NYC, I'm just hoping my lungs survive long enough to see the end of the combustion engine age. It's obviously better than it was but I run by trucks billowing blue exhaust daily. I can never understand why we don't seem to value breathable air.
- kaybe 8y ago
  Just a FYI, literally every meter you get away from the street helps immensely with your exposure, from what we see in the data. Heavy traffic and stop-and-go at traffic lights are the worst (no surprise), avoid those if possible.
cimmanom 8y ago
What makes traffic loud isn’t engines. It’s the damn horns.
- doombolt 8y ago
  It's a question of culture. I live in a country with awful driving culture, but blaring horn is still considered very rude. Car alarms sometimes misfire, which is more of concern.
  - GoMonad 8y ago
    Curious. Where is that?
    - doombolt 8y ago
      Russia.
angled 8y ago
I was in Shenzhen on Tuesday in the Futian district, and while the vehicles might be quieter, there is still a large amount of street level construction; and worst of all, the streets /smell/. Shenzhen still has a long way to go for it to be pleasant for pedestrians. I am sure they will have it sorted within a few years! (My phone's autocorrect tried to replace Futian with Durian!)
singularity2001 8y ago
There are already 100 million (!) electro scooters in use in China: https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheelers-china-promise-progress-potential/ https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheele... . This mega trend went pretty unnoticed in the West. Can't post this often enough.
- baybal2 8y ago
  >There are already 100 million (!) electro scooters in use in China: Despite all big cities been keen on banning them
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    really? why?? that would be a tragic strategic mistake!
    - baybal2 8y ago
      According to the party's doctrine... They think that mopeds are poor mans mean of transport and should not be allowed in big cities to not to shame the country. Every peasant should drive Benz S600 to show country's affluence to foreigners. I know, that's beyond schizo...

47 points by mariushn 8y ago

Not affiliated with them (other than just friends), but EV Complete[1] has seemed to tap into the whole wtf-do-i-need-an-ev-now thing. There's a joke in the cleantech space about how people in cleantech can't even understand how energy efficiency, solar, batteries, or EVs affect them, so how the hell can non-cleantech people understand the benefits of what we do. Overall, we need help. We have the tech and the vision, but most of the cleantech space needs help on the marketing, education, and execution. [1]: https://www.evcomplete.com/ https://www.evcomplete.com/

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
In the EV space it looks like cleantech is getting a lot of help. From the article: * began exporting its vehicles to the U.S. BYD has inked deals to supply electric buses to Facebook Inc.’s sprawling headquarters in Menlo Park, Calif., the transit authority in Long Beach, Calif., and the campuses of Stanford University and the University of California at Los Angeles. The most recent victory came in August, when BYD won a bid to supply all Georgia government entities with EVs. The company is using the immense financial backing at home to its advantage. A $9 billion credit line from China Development Bank, for example, is helping BYD place electric monorails in Brazil, Egypt, and the Philippines. And government grants that cover a third of the cost of building an electric bus. It's hard to imagine any of the Western democracies doing this, in the near future.

adrianN 8y ago

Meanwhile, established car makers are twiddling their thumbs and paying their lobbyists to delay the phase out of internal combustion engines for as long as possible. In Germany the Deutsche Umwelthilfe has to literally sue ever city separately to force their hands to do something about pollution. Bavaria simply ignores the court orders. Efforts to improve bikeability and public transport plan on multi decade timelines. Here in Berlin there are plans to extend the subway that are older than I am and are still being discussed. Electric busses are somehow not suitable for cities outside of China, we're still "evaluating options".

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
It's starting to look like, in an effort to democratise democracy, what we're actually doing is turning everything in to bikeshedding. In an effort to be all-inclusive, and generally not upset anyone, we're getting almost nothing done while China just steams ahead. I'm probably being a bit hyperbolic, but you get the idea. While we're all enraptured by the tomfoolery of our political "leaders", China is building. Who knows if it'll all work out, but you can't blame them for trying. Whereas you can certainly blame us for being paralysed.
- pasabagi 8y ago
  I think democracy isn't really an engineering project - it's a communications medium. So while it seems slow and full of bikeshedding, that's because if you don't work out everything procedurally, people turn to other channels. The chinese are really conscious of this - it's why they are investing so heavily in reducing corruption, which is the archetypal sign of people 'working around' the system. It's possible that with new technology, they'll succeed - but traditionally, non-democratic projects don't work out because the official channels are useless, and the center doesn't know what the periphery is doing. People will behave as long as the economy is growing, but as soon as it contracts, everybody will start turning to crime or politics.
  - doombolt 8y ago
    > they are investing so heavily in reducing corruption I am extremely sceptical about such claims. Claiming to fight corruption is usually more of PR stunt. To really fight corruption you have to do institutionalized changes, such as increasing transparency, which is painful for most of regimes on Earth. Fighting corruption without changing the system is busy work and reality show.
    - pasabagi 8y ago
      I'm actually pretty convinced. I think the Party is basically fairly smart, and they are extremely aware of the threats to their rule. For instance, after the first gulf war, they started extensive military reforms, presumably seeing how Saddam's gigantic, tank-heavy, cold-war era army fared against new technology, and seeing that the same could happen to them. I think time and time again, they've moved very fast to neutralize threats - and as I see it, there are few that would be more pressing than general disillusionment, the normalization of graft and cynicism. It's this culture that really killed the USSR. When nobody believes in your system, it doesn't matter how absolute your power is, or how utterly defeated your enemies are. Everybody in your administration will be essentially working for themselves, and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.

mixedbit 8y ago

Chinese move to EVs in impressive. In Shanghai to register a new car you need to wait on average more than a year and pay an equivalent of several thousand dollars. Unless you buy an electric car, in which case you can register it immediately without any payment.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Sincerely, screw the fossil fuel / internal combustion lobby. If there was any leadership in a political leader here in the West we'd have done something similar already.

olivermarks 8y ago

Reality check 'As Shenzhen’s housing prices skyrocket to rival Hong Kong’s, real estate for charging stations isn’t easy to find, and then they have to be fitted to the grid, says BYD spokesman Xiao Haiping. At Shenzhen Eastern Bus Co., one of BYD’s three bus-fleet partners, the monthly electricity bill of 17 million yuan is one-third of what its diesel bill used to be. The company has 15,000 employees and 5,800 buses, which use seven charging stations. Most of the buses are charged at night, when electricity is cheaper, though they sometimes have to top off in the afternoon. Each bus takes about three hours for a full charge and has a range of 250 kilometers (155 miles).' These are coal powered buses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#Coal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#Co...

notauser 8y ago
EVs are more efficient (in terms of emissions per mile) even when powered by fossil fuel grid generators, because power station generators are so much larger. They can also be fitted with big, centralised, emissions scrubbers. And the generators can be further away from cities, And the generators can be replaced with renewable or nuclear power without requiring any changes to the vehicle fleet.
bildung 8y ago
China already produces over 25% of its energy using renewable sources, as per your link.
- olivermarks 8y ago
  What scares me about the massive push to electric vehicles - Most grids' even in recent cities such as built in china, are inadequate to supply demand and basically don't exist - In China you can buy an EV with no penalties, try and buy an ICE and there are fees and long waits - What will we do with all the batteries once they are exhausted? The range and recharge time on EV's is crap and there is virtually no infrastructure in place for charging if and when it all scales up, yet car firms are saying they will be all electric by 2020 (Tata/JaguarLandRover for example) On what planet is this going to work? - When EVs have violent crashes the batteries keep reigniting for days. What will future scrap yards look like? I'm all for hybrid vehicles but there is something sinister about this flamboyant pr piece about the benefits of EV's...I just don't see enough infrastructure or tech maturity for the foreseeable future

doombolt 8y ago

I wonder how EVs really compare to trolleybuses (tech from XX century) pollution and money-wise? EVs have more route flexibility, and don't need expensive infrastructure, but they need expensive (and polluting) batteries and spend idle time charging. The city I live in ponders EV-Trolleybus hybrid. I can routinely see them minding their business with poles down. Still I'm not really sure if they'll waste a lot of time manually setting it up and down and whether pure EV is a better idea.

baybal2 8y ago
Shenzhen already tried trams, they can't survive local driving etiquette at all. The few tram lines are all in outskirts of the city.
- doombolt 8y ago
  Trolleybuses are not trams - you can still block them, but it takes much more effort. With Chinese city density and love of infrastructure I would have expected them to have a massive number of trolleybuses.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    I think they wouldn't survive either.

peterwwillis 8y ago

Buses also contribute the beepbeepbeepbeep and PSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH and "Pedestrian, bus is turning" sounds. Living across from a bus stop, I all but ignored each of these. My city soundscape has mostly hidden the sound of engines, save the rare Harley or Hemi. The sounds that penetrate the air (for me) are of both buses and cars blasting horns, music blaring, tires screeching, and the zooming of cars through air. That, and people taking loudly/yelling/screaming, the sounds of barking dogs, car alarms, fire truck/ambulance/police sirens, and air conditioners kicking on next door, and of course sounds from neighboring apartments. But that's nice that the buses run quieter now.

F_r_k 8y ago
What are these "pedestrians, bus is turning" sounds ? I'm Switzerland I have never heard those. Is every bus turning emitting these sounds ? Seems crazy to me.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  It's a sound made by the free shuttle buses in Baltimore, Maryland. But it's no more audible than the beeping and kneeling-bus air compressor. I have the feeling it was added for blind pedestrians, as we have some blind schools nearby.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  >I'm in Sweden and I've never heard these... I'm in America and I've never heard these. I think it may be something unique to that poster's city?

newnewpdro 8y ago

Am I wrong in thinking BYD is quite the existential threat to Tesla in the long-term?

tim333 8y ago
They seem to be targeting different ends of the market - high performance vs cheap busses and taxis. I think Porsche and Mercedes are more direct threats.
- baybal2 8y ago
  Tesla will never pay off for its stratospheric valuation if they can't dominate mass market. Chinese certainly will though.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  It looks like a huge missed opportunity for Tesla to not be getting all those domestic mass transit contracts at the very least. Tesla isn't laser focused on high-end exotic cars, look at the Tesla Semi for example, and energy storage. I think Tesla's existing targets are more a product of their limits to production scale than anything else.

jacobmoe 8y ago

The noise is annoying, but as someone who jogs daily in NYC, I'm just hoping my lungs survive long enough to see the end of the combustion engine age. It's obviously better than it was but I run by trucks billowing blue exhaust daily. I can never understand why we don't seem to value breathable air.

kaybe 8y ago
Just a FYI, literally every meter you get away from the street helps immensely with your exposure, from what we see in the data. Heavy traffic and stop-and-go at traffic lights are the worst (no surprise), avoid those if possible.

cimmanom 8y ago

What makes traffic loud isn’t engines. It’s the damn horns.

doombolt 8y ago
It's a question of culture. I live in a country with awful driving culture, but blaring horn is still considered very rude. Car alarms sometimes misfire, which is more of concern.
- GoMonad 8y ago
  Curious. Where is that?
  - doombolt 8y ago
    Russia.

angled 8y ago

I was in Shenzhen on Tuesday in the Futian district, and while the vehicles might be quieter, there is still a large amount of street level construction; and worst of all, the streets /smell/. Shenzhen still has a long way to go for it to be pleasant for pedestrians. I am sure they will have it sorted within a few years! (My phone's autocorrect tried to replace Futian with Durian!)

singularity2001 8y ago

There are already 100 million (!) electro scooters in use in China: https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheelers-china-promise-progress-potential/ https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheele... . This mega trend went pretty unnoticed in the West. Can't post this often enough.

baybal2 8y ago
>There are already 100 million (!) electro scooters in use in China: Despite all big cities been keen on banning them
- singularity2001 8y ago
  really? why?? that would be a tragic strategic mistake!
  - baybal2 8y ago
    According to the party's doctrine... They think that mopeds are poor mans mean of transport and should not be allowed in big cities to not to shame the country. Every peasant should drive Benz S600 to show country's affluence to foreigners. I know, that's beyond schizo...