6 ms·

I think it's much deeper than "individualist streak in American culture". Western Europe in the last 1000 years or so has been a very unusual place... one aspe

by iguy 8y ago

I think it's much deeper than "individualist streak in American culture". Western Europe in the last 1000 years or so has been a very unusual place... one aspect of which is having nuclear families not extended ones. Because (crudely speaking) the catholic church wished to diminish alternative power structures, such as clans. This led to an unusually open society, which had many benefits... with generally higher levels of trust among strangers. But it has some costs, too. Like not having tight connections for bootstrapping motels in a foreign land.

techstrategist 8y ago
I never connected the decline of extended families to the church, but that sounds fascinating. Any recommended reading?
- iguy 8y ago
  I'm struggling to think of a good source right now, sorry. But a link I've posted before looking the other way, at how the other half of the Roman empire turned out: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cousin-marriage-conundrum/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cousin-marr... also more recent discussion https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/01/marrying-cousin-bad-democracy.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/01/ma...
- tathougies 8y ago
  It's because it's not. Literally all the cultures in which Catholicism thrives are those in which the extended family is paramount. My very large very Catholic very Indian family actively rails against the individualism of secular American culture. As do my Philipino friends who also have very close families. As do my Hispanic family and friends who also have very close families. As do my African friends who also have close extended families. Literally the biggest group embracing individualism from my perspective are secular white people and mainstream protestants.
  - iguy 8y ago
    I'll stop now, but my church claim was only that the medieval church had a hand in changing the culture, in places which are now mostly protestant or atheist. The places which the post-reformation catholic church has thrived are indeed pretty different.
  - sDlEzAtyoNAz 8y ago
    The dogma of Catholicism did not destroy the clan structure in Europe, though it was certainly used by those who did. It was the humans running the church, who had particular political objectives relevant to the time and place which are not necessarily anything like the political objectives of the people involved with the church these days. No one here is making the argument that Catholicism cannot exist alongside close extended families, so your objection to the argument that is being made falls completely flat.
jlg23 8y ago
Unless you have some references, I'd call this a "nice theory" (to be read with a British accent). Spontaneously: * South America appeared to be more catholic than any Western European or US-American place I've visited, but family and extended family are still a big thing. * Calvinists seem to be much more "open" than catholics to me. * Damn, I want the secret recipe that lets me set a policy and enforce it in vast areas (at times without any reliable messenger system) and across many generations, even if my successor comes from a different faction within the catholic church.
- walterbell 8y ago
  > the secret recipe that lets me set a policy and enforce it in vast area Prioritize the targeting of clan leaders?
- iguy 8y ago
  The fairly solid part here is that the west is different, and my understanding is that the divergence in things like family/clan structures dates to early medieval times, in a zone something like London-to-Milan, core europe. Something changed, long before 1500. The peripheral was different, e.g. Scotland had strong clans until they got kicked out (to Ulster, and thence Appalachia...). And Spain wasn't even christian at this point in time. That the church did it is less clear, I agree. There are economic arguments too. I guess I'm persuaded that things like suppressing cousin marriage had something to do with it. I'm certainly not suggesting that there's some essential magic attached to the pope! It was core europe that invented Protestantism too... at the same time as Cortez & co were taking the reconquistia to the Incas, with the pope's blessing but a very different culture.
- pard68 8y ago
  By Calvinists I assume you are referring to Protestants? Or are you actually referring to Calvinistic Protestants? Just curious, outside of Christian circles and history I don't think I have ever seen someone reference Calvinists.
  - davidgay 8y ago
    Calvinists get plentifully referenced in general circles when you grow up in Geneva ;)
tathougies 8y ago
> Because (crudely speaking) the catholic church wished to diminish alternative power structures, such as clans. This led to an unusually open society, which had many benefits... with generally higher levels of trust among strangers. Oh please... Indian Catholic families still act in extended structures. I mean, three of my uncles are priests and one is a bishop. We've been Christian for thousands of years. We're still part of an overbearing, very close, very extended Indian family. The ruining of European culture can be traced solely back to issues in European culture. Let's stop blaming the church for things that Europe brought upon itself.
- cbnotfromthere 8y ago
  > "We've been Christian for thousands of years." LOL
  - tathougies 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians Yeah, LOL...
- iguy 8y ago
  To be clear, my claim above is that the church, as a centralising power structure in "christaindom" circa 1000AD, played some role in pushing the culture there towards openness, or in making extended families less important. Claiming that christianity always and everywhere does this would be pretty obviously wrong, and I did not say this. And indeed even within europe today, catholic-ness is anti-correlated with this kind of "openness" -- because the core relevant for this has long since gone protestant or atheist. I hold this claim weakly. There are other arguments for what happened. But regardless of why, my main point was that Europe (and especially a core area) was an outlier on this universalist/clannish scale. And that both ends have advantages, depending on the situation.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    But still this doesn't make sense, as Latin America was converted in the 1500s, well after the 1000 AD change that you claim occurred. Latin America, despite having 500 years for Catholicism to settle in, is still really big into the extended family. I think a better explanation is the Protestant reformation weakened the idea that any person should subjugate their own personal individual desires for the greater good, with its emphasis on an individual quest for truth, an idea which has now permeated western culture. This makes sense with what I've experienced of non-European Catholicism, which mostly just finds Protestantism bizzare and confusing.
naeemtee 8y ago
There are several things wrong with this line of thinking (as others have pointed out), but I'd like to draw attention to a less salient point you made: > This led to an unusually open society, which had many benefits... with generally higher levels of trust among strangers. It's interesting that you're portraying the openness of European society in a strongly positive light, given the high levels of abject loneliness prevalent primarily in the west. Communal living has been a staple for much of human existence, the level of isolation most people in western Europe and North America (and now, much of east Asia) face is a direct result of European "openness" (which spread through east Asia via the British originally, and destabilization + American media later). The biggest risk to the future of the West is the lack of strong families. That's where India, above all others, shines.
- iguy 8y ago
  Well this is fun, see other answers. I agree that the extreme individualist end of the spectrum has downsides, for sure. Suicide rates make horrifying reading. But I think you can argue it's part of what made the west successful -- in HN terms, being forced to learn to deal with strangers, a lot, set you up to scale well. Isn't the flip side of being on the other end of this scale -- tight happy families, or clans, maybe even castes -- something close to nepotism? Stagnation because once you've employed all your nephews then you can't grow, who would you trust? Of course there are a million other factors etc too... anyway.
  - geodel 8y ago
    This is true. Since the article talks about Patels. Back in India after holding powerful position in politics, administration etc for long time in Gujarat, Patels are lately agitating violently to be declared "backward caste". So that they can be entitled for more government support in jobs, education etc.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
I think of the nuclear family more as an invention of 20th century ad campaigns. It’s a lot harder to sell mom cooking and cleaning products when she has help from an extended family.
- iguy 8y ago
  Many people thought this, e.g. it was assumed in Victorian England that the past looked a lot like the present of less-developed countries, like Russia. But it's not true, we have data. The quite readable book on this is Laslett, "The World We Have Lost". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1362413/Peter-Laslett.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1362413/Peter-La...

by iguy 8y ago

techstrategist 8y ago

I never connected the decline of extended families to the church, but that sounds fascinating. Any recommended reading?

iguy 8y ago
I'm struggling to think of a good source right now, sorry. But a link I've posted before looking the other way, at how the other half of the Roman empire turned out: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cousin-marriage-conundrum/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/cousin-marr... also more recent discussion https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/01/marrying-cousin-bad-democracy.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/01/ma...
tathougies 8y ago
It's because it's not. Literally all the cultures in which Catholicism thrives are those in which the extended family is paramount. My very large very Catholic very Indian family actively rails against the individualism of secular American culture. As do my Philipino friends who also have very close families. As do my Hispanic family and friends who also have very close families. As do my African friends who also have close extended families. Literally the biggest group embracing individualism from my perspective are secular white people and mainstream protestants.
- iguy 8y ago
  I'll stop now, but my church claim was only that the medieval church had a hand in changing the culture, in places which are now mostly protestant or atheist. The places which the post-reformation catholic church has thrived are indeed pretty different.
- sDlEzAtyoNAz 8y ago
  The dogma of Catholicism did not destroy the clan structure in Europe, though it was certainly used by those who did. It was the humans running the church, who had particular political objectives relevant to the time and place which are not necessarily anything like the political objectives of the people involved with the church these days. No one here is making the argument that Catholicism cannot exist alongside close extended families, so your objection to the argument that is being made falls completely flat.

jlg23 8y ago

Unless you have some references, I'd call this a "nice theory" (to be read with a British accent). Spontaneously: * South America appeared to be more catholic than any Western European or US-American place I've visited, but family and extended family are still a big thing. * Calvinists seem to be much more "open" than catholics to me. * Damn, I want the secret recipe that lets me set a policy and enforce it in vast areas (at times without any reliable messenger system) and across many generations, even if my successor comes from a different faction within the catholic church.

walterbell 8y ago
> the secret recipe that lets me set a policy and enforce it in vast area Prioritize the targeting of clan leaders?
iguy 8y ago
The fairly solid part here is that the west is different, and my understanding is that the divergence in things like family/clan structures dates to early medieval times, in a zone something like London-to-Milan, core europe. Something changed, long before 1500. The peripheral was different, e.g. Scotland had strong clans until they got kicked out (to Ulster, and thence Appalachia...). And Spain wasn't even christian at this point in time. That the church did it is less clear, I agree. There are economic arguments too. I guess I'm persuaded that things like suppressing cousin marriage had something to do with it. I'm certainly not suggesting that there's some essential magic attached to the pope! It was core europe that invented Protestantism too... at the same time as Cortez & co were taking the reconquistia to the Incas, with the pope's blessing but a very different culture.
pard68 8y ago
By Calvinists I assume you are referring to Protestants? Or are you actually referring to Calvinistic Protestants? Just curious, outside of Christian circles and history I don't think I have ever seen someone reference Calvinists.
- davidgay 8y ago
  Calvinists get plentifully referenced in general circles when you grow up in Geneva ;)

tathougies 8y ago

> Because (crudely speaking) the catholic church wished to diminish alternative power structures, such as clans. This led to an unusually open society, which had many benefits... with generally higher levels of trust among strangers. Oh please... Indian Catholic families still act in extended structures. I mean, three of my uncles are priests and one is a bishop. We've been Christian for thousands of years. We're still part of an overbearing, very close, very extended Indian family. The ruining of European culture can be traced solely back to issues in European culture. Let's stop blaming the church for things that Europe brought upon itself.

cbnotfromthere 8y ago
> "We've been Christian for thousands of years." LOL
- tathougies 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians Yeah, LOL...
iguy 8y ago
To be clear, my claim above is that the church, as a centralising power structure in "christaindom" circa 1000AD, played some role in pushing the culture there towards openness, or in making extended families less important. Claiming that christianity always and everywhere does this would be pretty obviously wrong, and I did not say this. And indeed even within europe today, catholic-ness is anti-correlated with this kind of "openness" -- because the core relevant for this has long since gone protestant or atheist. I hold this claim weakly. There are other arguments for what happened. But regardless of why, my main point was that Europe (and especially a core area) was an outlier on this universalist/clannish scale. And that both ends have advantages, depending on the situation.
- tathougies 8y ago
  But still this doesn't make sense, as Latin America was converted in the 1500s, well after the 1000 AD change that you claim occurred. Latin America, despite having 500 years for Catholicism to settle in, is still really big into the extended family. I think a better explanation is the Protestant reformation weakened the idea that any person should subjugate their own personal individual desires for the greater good, with its emphasis on an individual quest for truth, an idea which has now permeated western culture. This makes sense with what I've experienced of non-European Catholicism, which mostly just finds Protestantism bizzare and confusing.

naeemtee 8y ago

There are several things wrong with this line of thinking (as others have pointed out), but I'd like to draw attention to a less salient point you made: > This led to an unusually open society, which had many benefits... with generally higher levels of trust among strangers. It's interesting that you're portraying the openness of European society in a strongly positive light, given the high levels of abject loneliness prevalent primarily in the west. Communal living has been a staple for much of human existence, the level of isolation most people in western Europe and North America (and now, much of east Asia) face is a direct result of European "openness" (which spread through east Asia via the British originally, and destabilization + American media later). The biggest risk to the future of the West is the lack of strong families. That's where India, above all others, shines.

iguy 8y ago
Well this is fun, see other answers. I agree that the extreme individualist end of the spectrum has downsides, for sure. Suicide rates make horrifying reading. But I think you can argue it's part of what made the west successful -- in HN terms, being forced to learn to deal with strangers, a lot, set you up to scale well. Isn't the flip side of being on the other end of this scale -- tight happy families, or clans, maybe even castes -- something close to nepotism? Stagnation because once you've employed all your nephews then you can't grow, who would you trust? Of course there are a million other factors etc too... anyway.
- geodel 8y ago
  This is true. Since the article talks about Patels. Back in India after holding powerful position in politics, administration etc for long time in Gujarat, Patels are lately agitating violently to be declared "backward caste". So that they can be entitled for more government support in jobs, education etc.

erikpukinskis 8y ago

I think of the nuclear family more as an invention of 20th century ad campaigns. It’s a lot harder to sell mom cooking and cleaning products when she has help from an extended family.

iguy 8y ago
Many people thought this, e.g. it was assumed in Victorian England that the past looked a lot like the present of less-developed countries, like Russia. But it's not true, we have data. The quite readable book on this is Laslett, "The World We Have Lost". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1362413/Peter-Laslett.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1362413/Peter-La...