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> I don't agree with what I perceive as their Hobbes-ean need for total control If you asked them many would say that a state must maintain total control withi

by api 8y ago

> I don't agree with what I perceive as their Hobbes-ean need for total control If you asked them many would say that a state must maintain total control within its territory or someone else will fill whatever vacuum remains -- the mafia, other states or their intelligence agencies, private cartels, etc. Once such agencies get a toehold they can grow their power and eventually challenge the dominant structure. In many cases the new boss may be worse than the old boss. Politics is all about compromises. Police and intelligence agencies always sound like they are asking for total Orwellian control because they know they'll get only 1% of what they ask for -- so ask big. It's a negotiating strategy.

CWuestefeld 8y ago
That might be true in other cases. But here, there is no negotiation because we're not even allowed to know what's being negotiated. They won't tell us how often these powers are used, and they lie about how much it benefits.
cryoshon 8y ago
>Police and intelligence agencies always sound like they are asking for total Orwellian control because they know they'll get only 1% of what they ask for -- so ask big. It's a negotiating strategy. they have a level of surveillance that orwell could not have imagined. orwell imagined hidden microphones and highly visible cameras. we have all of those things and far more. you see, if they negotiate 10000 times and they get 1% of what they want each of those times, things move in their direction and eventually they have more than what they originally wanted.
nocigar 8y ago
What you describe already happened, it's just that the new boss moved into the old boss' office before people could object. We had an accountable system, and now we no longer do. With mass surveillance I get the idea they know they get 99% of what they ask for, and even more, they mock us because they know they can circumvent the remaining 1% easily through parallel construction. Remember those NSA slides where they mock the public for willingly buying smartphones that can be tracked everywhere? Yeah, we're the morons, not them who openly lie to the public and redefine language itself to make what they're doing not a crime against humanity. It's as if they installed cameras on every street and mock people for driving, except of course, that too is now practically normalized under the guise of "safety".

by api 8y ago

CWuestefeld 8y ago

That might be true in other cases. But here, there is no negotiation because we're not even allowed to know what's being negotiated. They won't tell us how often these powers are used, and they lie about how much it benefits.

cryoshon 8y ago

>Police and intelligence agencies always sound like they are asking for total Orwellian control because they know they'll get only 1% of what they ask for -- so ask big. It's a negotiating strategy. they have a level of surveillance that orwell could not have imagined. orwell imagined hidden microphones and highly visible cameras. we have all of those things and far more. you see, if they negotiate 10000 times and they get 1% of what they want each of those times, things move in their direction and eventually they have more than what they originally wanted.

nocigar 8y ago

What you describe already happened, it's just that the new boss moved into the old boss' office before people could object. We had an accountable system, and now we no longer do. With mass surveillance I get the idea they know they get 99% of what they ask for, and even more, they mock us because they know they can circumvent the remaining 1% easily through parallel construction. Remember those NSA slides where they mock the public for willingly buying smartphones that can be tracked everywhere? Yeah, we're the morons, not them who openly lie to the public and redefine language itself to make what they're doing not a crime against humanity. It's as if they installed cameras on every street and mock people for driving, except of course, that too is now practically normalized under the guise of "safety".