5 ms·

While I am a privacy advocate in most aspects, I fail to see how my basic health data like HR, weight etc is going to be used against me except for bad marketin

While I am a privacy advocate in most aspects, I fail to see how my basic health data like HR, weight etc is going to be used against me except for bad marketing practices. If I talk ill about some political ideologies and that gets stored until some evil dictator gets in power, that I can get. But who is going to put me in prison for having a high heart rate? The benefits in the other hand is great. I get to see and view my health improve or get worse over time and they can use my data along with many others to get patterns and help improve the health of everyone. I guess what I am saying is that I don't really get the panic about giving up health data that is displayed in this comment section. I also own a Withings / Nokia watch together with a scale and it works great, have motivated me to get more sleep and exercise more. My experience is purely positive and I am quite certain that owning devices like this helps a lot of people get more healthy, detect bad trends etc.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
I agree, although I'm lucky enough to live in a country where healthcare is universal and not at the whim of an insurance company. I presume this is the situation for you too?
- mscasts 8y ago
  Yes, that is the situation for me too. I guess if my healthcare was depending on my insurence getting through I would be more careful with that data but I don't think they would be able to identify me. I actually think the reverse could be true. If you own a watch, a scale etc you are obviously thinking about your health and prioritizing it. It makes little sense to punish people who prioritize their health and monitor it to evade bad stuff. If I notice a bad trend I would do something about it, if it was my heart rate I would probably call a doctor and usually with health the earlier you identify an issue the more likely it will be easier to do something about it. If you go with a bad heart for years it will probably be harder to get healthy after that and will probably be more expensive as you might require a surgery which perhaps could be avoided.
specialist 8y ago
If my health data is so valuable, then I should get paid for it.
- mscasts 8y ago
  Well, you kind of are but not in terms of money but rather with increased knowledge of patterns which should be avoided. They can tell you how to get healthier, identify the optimal sleep and exercise patterns, identify if certain places causes people to be more healthy/unhealthy etc. Companies will most likely use this information as selling points for their devices / apps. I value this information much higher than a small amount of money.
  - specialist 8y ago
    Cool. Put a price on both sides of that transaction. Let me (us) decide for myself (ourselves).
Engineering-MD 8y ago
> fail to see how my basic health data like HR, weight etc is going to be used against me except for bad marketing practices. I actually looked into this in some (limited) detail, although for a slightly expanded definition of all data a Fitbit (and the near future similar devices) could collect. Heart rate data has been used in legal cases in the past. In an insurance fraud case, heart rate data from a pacemaker was used to provide evidence the events could not have occurred as described [1]. Similarly activity data has been used to defend against a false rape claim [2]. There is no reason such data could not be used in any other legal case. The data collected by such devices can also reveal much more information about yourself than most think. By watching hand movements via accelerometer, smokers can be identified with 95% accuracy [3]. Users can be tracked via Bluetooth identifiers, or via the unique walking pattern of each individual [4]. Even when encrypted, users can be identified by the frequency of communication to the smartphone. Furthermore, pins can be identified by monitoring users hand motion via accelerometer [5]. For more advanced next generation fitness trackers tracking your ECG, this has been shown to be as unique as a fingerprint, allowing individuals to be uniquely identified across devices [6]. There is no reason that this data could not be used against you via insurance companies to change insurance costs (smoker, type of transport, heart health, activity) or even force you to wear one much like some car insurance requires black box monitoring. You could be taken in for insurance fraud by saying you are not a smoker, or it could potentially be used against you in court. This data can also be falsified, meaning fake data could potentially be used against you. In summary, there are many other privacy problems with fitness trackers. [1] https://apnews.com/c55eac83846f42e19fb924e57917001b https://apnews.com/c55eac83846f42e19fb924e57917001b [2] https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/07/can-your-fitbit-data- https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/07/can-your-fitbit-da... be-used-against-you-in-court.html [3] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilaria_Torre/publication/316925412_Fitness_Trackers_and_Wearable_Devices_How_to_Prevent_Inference_Risks/links/5a98a064aca27214056d5641/Fitness-Trackers-and-Wearable-Devices-How-to-Prevent-Inference-Risks.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilaria_Torre/publicatio... [4] https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/fitness-trackers-open-effect-citizen-lab-report/ https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/fitness-trackers-open-effect... [5] https://www.stevens.edu/sites/stevens_edu/files/ChenWearablesPaper.pdf https://www.stevens.edu/sites/stevens_edu/files/ChenWearable... [6] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031320304002419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003132030...
executesorder66 8y ago
> health data like HR, weight etc is going to be used against me except for bad marketing practices You could pay more for health and life insurance.
- techstrategist 8y ago
  Or even be refused insurance at any price.
- todd8 8y ago
  One problem facing insurance companies is the asymmetric information between buyer and seller. Should we be able to keep our age secret when buying life insurance? How about sex or weight? My teenage son is in all likelihood a less safe driver than the average teenage woman, should a woman pay the same for her insurance as the generally more reckless man? With regard to our health information, should we be keeping information from our insurance companies? Would it be right to lie about it? If not then should we hiding it. It seems that in this case we are taking advantage of others that will inevitable have to pay higher premiums to cover costs of those that are less honest about their health. I bought a house recently. The owner didn’t disclose a crack in the slab. They had covered it with a recent floor covering that fooled both me and the inspector. Is that okay? Isn’t this similar to trying to keep a life insuance company from realizing that one has a significant risk say of a heart attack? I don’t like companies collecting data on me, so if Fitbit does this I would hope that there was a way to opt out; nevertheless, I feel that we shouldn’t expect private insurance companies to charge us all the same. This leaves many people in circumstances where insuance would be unobtainable—a big problem where government could play an important role in a just solution.
  - hunter2_ 8y ago
    Seems to me like one should pay more for risky things one can control (still smoking, excessive drinking, eating poorly if you can afford to eat well, etc.) but not for things one cannot control (genetics, sex -- insert typical list of protected classes here). And that is super complicated.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> and they can use my data along with many others to get patterns and help improve the health of everyone. Are they actually doing it? How? I'm a big fan of Datensparsamkeit[0]. Either they actually use this data to further medical research (which is something that would be marketed loudly), or there is no basis to assume they maybe, at some point, could - possibly - do it. Beyond that, I see no valid reason why this data should ever leave my local watch<->phone network. All fitness-related functionality can be performed off-line. And guess what, when done off-line, you're not screwed if your hardware outlives the vendor. -- [0] - https://martinfowler.com/bliki/Datensparsamkeit.html https://martinfowler.com/bliki/Datensparsamkeit.html
- brlewis 8y ago
  Either they actually use this data to further medical research (which is something that would be marketed loudly) https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2018/Fitbit-Announces-Health-Partner-Apps-and-Clock-Faces-Aimed-to-Improve-Condition-Management-and-Overall-Health/default.aspx https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-relea...
justaguyhere 8y ago
While I am a privacy advocate in most aspects I guess you are answering your own question. Whether our data is going to an evil dictator or a saint is not the first question. The first question is, do we know where it is going? Were we explicitly told, did we knowingly and willingly give permission (not tricked, as a footnote in 8 point font in a 50 page terms and conditions agreement) to use our data - that should be our first question. If that is not satisfactorily answered (not just this case), then the rest of the questions don't matter as much. Even if the data collector's intentions are 100% pure (it never is) and it is used for the good of humanity (it never is) etc etc, it is still extremely offensive to take someone's most intimate data without them knowing and explicitly authorizing to do so. Even after that, there should be periodic independent audits just to make sure the data collectors hold their end of the bargain.
anon08142018 8y ago
Using your basic health data like HR and weight against you would make a great episode of Black Mirror actually.
e12e 8y ago
And when the company is is bought by a health insurer, credit institution - or major employer...? Oh, let's not hire this guy - high risk of heart attack (ski accident, substance abuse) - let's prefer this similar candidate...

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

I agree, although I'm lucky enough to live in a country where healthcare is universal and not at the whim of an insurance company. I presume this is the situation for you too?

mscasts 8y ago
Yes, that is the situation for me too. I guess if my healthcare was depending on my insurence getting through I would be more careful with that data but I don't think they would be able to identify me. I actually think the reverse could be true. If you own a watch, a scale etc you are obviously thinking about your health and prioritizing it. It makes little sense to punish people who prioritize their health and monitor it to evade bad stuff. If I notice a bad trend I would do something about it, if it was my heart rate I would probably call a doctor and usually with health the earlier you identify an issue the more likely it will be easier to do something about it. If you go with a bad heart for years it will probably be harder to get healthy after that and will probably be more expensive as you might require a surgery which perhaps could be avoided.

specialist 8y ago

If my health data is so valuable, then I should get paid for it.

mscasts 8y ago
Well, you kind of are but not in terms of money but rather with increased knowledge of patterns which should be avoided. They can tell you how to get healthier, identify the optimal sleep and exercise patterns, identify if certain places causes people to be more healthy/unhealthy etc. Companies will most likely use this information as selling points for their devices / apps. I value this information much higher than a small amount of money.
- specialist 8y ago
  Cool. Put a price on both sides of that transaction. Let me (us) decide for myself (ourselves).

Engineering-MD 8y ago

> fail to see how my basic health data like HR, weight etc is going to be used against me except for bad marketing practices. I actually looked into this in some (limited) detail, although for a slightly expanded definition of all data a Fitbit (and the near future similar devices) could collect. Heart rate data has been used in legal cases in the past. In an insurance fraud case, heart rate data from a pacemaker was used to provide evidence the events could not have occurred as described [1]. Similarly activity data has been used to defend against a false rape claim [2]. There is no reason such data could not be used in any other legal case. The data collected by such devices can also reveal much more information about yourself than most think. By watching hand movements via accelerometer, smokers can be identified with 95% accuracy [3]. Users can be tracked via Bluetooth identifiers, or via the unique walking pattern of each individual [4]. Even when encrypted, users can be identified by the frequency of communication to the smartphone. Furthermore, pins can be identified by monitoring users hand motion via accelerometer [5]. For more advanced next generation fitness trackers tracking your ECG, this has been shown to be as unique as a fingerprint, allowing individuals to be uniquely identified across devices [6]. There is no reason that this data could not be used against you via insurance companies to change insurance costs (smoker, type of transport, heart health, activity) or even force you to wear one much like some car insurance requires black box monitoring. You could be taken in for insurance fraud by saying you are not a smoker, or it could potentially be used against you in court. This data can also be falsified, meaning fake data could potentially be used against you. In summary, there are many other privacy problems with fitness trackers. [1] https://apnews.com/c55eac83846f42e19fb924e57917001b https://apnews.com/c55eac83846f42e19fb924e57917001b [2] https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/07/can-your-fitbit-data- https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2015/07/can-your-fitbit-da... be-used-against-you-in-court.html [3] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilaria_Torre/publication/316925412_Fitness_Trackers_and_Wearable_Devices_How_to_Prevent_Inference_Risks/links/5a98a064aca27214056d5641/Fitness-Trackers-and-Wearable-Devices-How-to-Prevent-Inference-Risks.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ilaria_Torre/publicatio... [4] https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/fitness-trackers-open-effect-citizen-lab-report/ https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/fitness-trackers-open-effect... [5] https://www.stevens.edu/sites/stevens_edu/files/ChenWearablesPaper.pdf https://www.stevens.edu/sites/stevens_edu/files/ChenWearable... [6] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031320304002419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003132030...

executesorder66 8y ago

> health data like HR, weight etc is going to be used against me except for bad marketing practices You could pay more for health and life insurance.

techstrategist 8y ago
Or even be refused insurance at any price.
todd8 8y ago
One problem facing insurance companies is the asymmetric information between buyer and seller. Should we be able to keep our age secret when buying life insurance? How about sex or weight? My teenage son is in all likelihood a less safe driver than the average teenage woman, should a woman pay the same for her insurance as the generally more reckless man? With regard to our health information, should we be keeping information from our insurance companies? Would it be right to lie about it? If not then should we hiding it. It seems that in this case we are taking advantage of others that will inevitable have to pay higher premiums to cover costs of those that are less honest about their health. I bought a house recently. The owner didn’t disclose a crack in the slab. They had covered it with a recent floor covering that fooled both me and the inspector. Is that okay? Isn’t this similar to trying to keep a life insuance company from realizing that one has a significant risk say of a heart attack? I don’t like companies collecting data on me, so if Fitbit does this I would hope that there was a way to opt out; nevertheless, I feel that we shouldn’t expect private insurance companies to charge us all the same. This leaves many people in circumstances where insuance would be unobtainable—a big problem where government could play an important role in a just solution.
- hunter2_ 8y ago
  Seems to me like one should pay more for risky things one can control (still smoking, excessive drinking, eating poorly if you can afford to eat well, etc.) but not for things one cannot control (genetics, sex -- insert typical list of protected classes here). And that is super complicated.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> and they can use my data along with many others to get patterns and help improve the health of everyone. Are they actually doing it? How? I'm a big fan of Datensparsamkeit[0]. Either they actually use this data to further medical research (which is something that would be marketed loudly), or there is no basis to assume they maybe, at some point, could - possibly - do it. Beyond that, I see no valid reason why this data should ever leave my local watch<->phone network. All fitness-related functionality can be performed off-line. And guess what, when done off-line, you're not screwed if your hardware outlives the vendor. -- [0] - https://martinfowler.com/bliki/Datensparsamkeit.html https://martinfowler.com/bliki/Datensparsamkeit.html

brlewis 8y ago
Either they actually use this data to further medical research (which is something that would be marketed loudly) https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2018/Fitbit-Announces-Health-Partner-Apps-and-Clock-Faces-Aimed-to-Improve-Condition-Management-and-Overall-Health/default.aspx https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-relea...

justaguyhere 8y ago

While I am a privacy advocate in most aspects I guess you are answering your own question. Whether our data is going to an evil dictator or a saint is not the first question. The first question is, do we know where it is going? Were we explicitly told, did we knowingly and willingly give permission (not tricked, as a footnote in 8 point font in a 50 page terms and conditions agreement) to use our data - that should be our first question. If that is not satisfactorily answered (not just this case), then the rest of the questions don't matter as much. Even if the data collector's intentions are 100% pure (it never is) and it is used for the good of humanity (it never is) etc etc, it is still extremely offensive to take someone's most intimate data without them knowing and explicitly authorizing to do so. Even after that, there should be periodic independent audits just to make sure the data collectors hold their end of the bargain.

anon08142018 8y ago

Using your basic health data like HR and weight against you would make a great episode of Black Mirror actually.

e12e 8y ago

And when the company is is bought by a health insurer, credit institution - or major employer...? Oh, let's not hire this guy - high risk of heart attack (ski accident, substance abuse) - let's prefer this similar candidate...