4 ms·

I am reading novels in Japanese. My method is similar but without the flashcards. I read a page at a time, looking up and writing all unknown vocabulary in a n

by dwg 8y ago

I am reading novels in Japanese. My method is similar but without the flashcards. I read a page at a time, looking up and writing all unknown vocabulary in a notebook. There could be dozens of new words on the page. I then reread the same page. Usually I can read the entire page through quickly the second time, because it's fresh in my memory. However, when the same words come up again later I may have forgotten the reading or meaning, so it gets another entry in the notebook (even if I recognize it). After noting the same word a few times, I may start to remember it. The advantage of reading books, in my opinion, is that they tend to use the same vocabulary over and over. You'll eventually remember the most frequently used words naturally. The other advantage is that vocabulary appears in context. This is better for both remembering and for understanding. This is why I don't use flashcards, and just let the book be my study tool. It's much easier to use this method if the book is selected carefully. It should be relatively easy, but still interesting. Something that might be assigned reading in middle school or high school, I feel, are often good examples.

pouetpouet 8y ago
Reading full novels is the original spaced repetition tool. Words get reused regularly in context.
- dwg 8y ago
  well said :)
- bayesian_horse 8y ago
  Yes. Unfortunately, they tend to use tons of words with a lower frequency than once per a couple hundred pages. So it's much better for over-learning on known words, and less good at acquiring tons of new ones.
mikekchar 8y ago
Having done this many times before (it was my main study method), I'll say that at least for me putting the new vocab in SRS software improved the efficiency of reading dramatically. I changed my process to scanning the text and finding the first 20 pieces of vocab I didn't know. I'd put that in my SRS software (of my own invention because at that time Anki sucked, believe it or not :-)) I'd then memorise those 20 pieces of vocab and then read the text. Every day, I'd do that, and also do my SRS reviews. Every week or so, I'd reread the whole week's text. If it was a particularly difficult book, then I might do the same thing after a month (ie. read the whole month's work). Almost always, by the time I got to half way through the book, I didn't need the SRS software anymore. Authors tend to use the same vocab and grammar over and over again. So I could read several books written by that author with almost no difficulty (although it depends on the level). Anyway, what I found was that this was the fastest way to bootstrap me to free reading. If I didn't memorise vocab as I went, then I'd need to look up stuff for the entire book (and beyond). But if I did memorise vocab, then I could easily get to a point where I'm just reading casually without any desire to look stuff up. Studies (which I don't have pointers to at the moment, unfortunately) have shown that you need 95% comprehension (on average) to learn new vocabulary and grammar from context. So the key is to get yourself there (in the context of what you are reading) as quickly as possible. It makes a big difference.
- troydj 8y ago
  Thank you for sharing your methodology. A pointer to the study that you're probably thinking of is research done by Paul Nation and Robert Waring (vocabulary researchers). They cite their own 1985 study and a 1989 study with the following quote: "With a vocabulary size of 2,000 words, a learner knows 80% of the words in a text which means that 1 word in every 5 (approximately 2 words in every line) are unknown. Research by Liu Na and Nation (1985) has shown that this ratio of unknown to known words is not sufficient to allow reasonably successful guessing of the meaning of the unknown words. At least 95% coverage is needed for that. Research by Laufer (1989) suggests that 95% coverage is sufficient to allow reasonable comprehension of a text. A larger vocabulary size is clearly better." [1] 1. http://www.fltr.ucl.ac.be/fltr/germ/etan/bibs/vocab/cup.html http://www.fltr.ucl.ac.be/fltr/germ/etan/bibs/vocab/cup.html
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    Interesting. I haven't actually seen that one. I was actually thinking about a paper from McGill university which I think it was discussing whether or not having annotations which translate certain words (the name of which escapes me at the moment) when free reading is helpful. If you can think of the name for those annotations (the ones that you can often find in English graded readers), then you can probably find the paper (search for that, "free reading" and "McGill"). However, I have no doubt that the paper I was reading, references this one. Great find. Thanks!
    - groovy2shoes 8y ago
      > annotations which translate certain words (the name of which escapes me at the moment) Perhaps you're thinking of glosses? I'm not familiar with graded readers, but I am rather familiar with mediæval manuscripts, wherein it's common to see copies of Latin works with little annotations near certain (sometimes all) words. When the gloss has been added above (or below) the word(s) they annotate, they're said to be interlinear, but marginal glosses aren't unheard of. The glosses were sometimes written by the same scribe that made the copy, but often they appear to have been added later, perhaps by the owner of the book—sometimes in a comically small hand so as to fit in narrow spaces :)
Timpy 8y ago
Do you have any suggestions for a first novel in Japanese? I am already reading slice-of-life manga, but the pictures and furigana are a crutch, and the vocab is pretty much limited to everyday life.
- pouetpouet 8y ago
  I would look into graded readers. Related : Do 20 pages of a book give you 90% of its words? Link: https://blog.vocapouch.com/do-20-pages-of-a-book-gives-you-90-of-its-words-795a405afe70 https://blog.vocapouch.com/do-20-pages-of-a-book-gives-you-9... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14673229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14673229
- corey_moncure 8y ago
  A couple light / young adult fiction books I've read cover to cover: 星虫　クローズドノートパラレルワールドラブストーリー
- adrianN 8y ago
  The DJT Guide is pretty good: https://djtguide.neocities.org/reading%20list.html https://djtguide.neocities.org/reading%20list.html
- dwg 8y ago
  I used to spend a lot of time trying to find good books but a funny thing happened. The more time I spent choosing a book, the less likely I was to read or finish reading it. I gave up and started choosing randomly. At a convenience store or book store I find the display of "new/popular" books, pick one up, and read a few paragraphs to check the level of difficulty and for cursory interest. If it seems about right—I could generally understand even without recognizing all the words—buy and try. Recently I read Harry Potter #1 and カエルの楽園, which turned out to be a politically motivated parable about Japanese rearmament. They were both at a great level for me. Currently I am reading ハツカネズミと人間 (Of Mice and Men) which was given to me by a friend. Next up is a book on eating one meal a day.

by dwg 8y ago

pouetpouet 8y ago

Reading full novels is the original spaced repetition tool. Words get reused regularly in context.

dwg 8y ago
well said :)
bayesian_horse 8y ago
Yes. Unfortunately, they tend to use tons of words with a lower frequency than once per a couple hundred pages. So it's much better for over-learning on known words, and less good at acquiring tons of new ones.

mikekchar 8y ago

Having done this many times before (it was my main study method), I'll say that at least for me putting the new vocab in SRS software improved the efficiency of reading dramatically. I changed my process to scanning the text and finding the first 20 pieces of vocab I didn't know. I'd put that in my SRS software (of my own invention because at that time Anki sucked, believe it or not :-)) I'd then memorise those 20 pieces of vocab and then read the text. Every day, I'd do that, and also do my SRS reviews. Every week or so, I'd reread the whole week's text. If it was a particularly difficult book, then I might do the same thing after a month (ie. read the whole month's work). Almost always, by the time I got to half way through the book, I didn't need the SRS software anymore. Authors tend to use the same vocab and grammar over and over again. So I could read several books written by that author with almost no difficulty (although it depends on the level). Anyway, what I found was that this was the fastest way to bootstrap me to free reading. If I didn't memorise vocab as I went, then I'd need to look up stuff for the entire book (and beyond). But if I did memorise vocab, then I could easily get to a point where I'm just reading casually without any desire to look stuff up. Studies (which I don't have pointers to at the moment, unfortunately) have shown that you need 95% comprehension (on average) to learn new vocabulary and grammar from context. So the key is to get yourself there (in the context of what you are reading) as quickly as possible. It makes a big difference.

troydj 8y ago
Thank you for sharing your methodology. A pointer to the study that you're probably thinking of is research done by Paul Nation and Robert Waring (vocabulary researchers). They cite their own 1985 study and a 1989 study with the following quote: "With a vocabulary size of 2,000 words, a learner knows 80% of the words in a text which means that 1 word in every 5 (approximately 2 words in every line) are unknown. Research by Liu Na and Nation (1985) has shown that this ratio of unknown to known words is not sufficient to allow reasonably successful guessing of the meaning of the unknown words. At least 95% coverage is needed for that. Research by Laufer (1989) suggests that 95% coverage is sufficient to allow reasonable comprehension of a text. A larger vocabulary size is clearly better." [1] 1. http://www.fltr.ucl.ac.be/fltr/germ/etan/bibs/vocab/cup.html http://www.fltr.ucl.ac.be/fltr/germ/etan/bibs/vocab/cup.html
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Interesting. I haven't actually seen that one. I was actually thinking about a paper from McGill university which I think it was discussing whether or not having annotations which translate certain words (the name of which escapes me at the moment) when free reading is helpful. If you can think of the name for those annotations (the ones that you can often find in English graded readers), then you can probably find the paper (search for that, "free reading" and "McGill"). However, I have no doubt that the paper I was reading, references this one. Great find. Thanks!
  - groovy2shoes 8y ago
    > annotations which translate certain words (the name of which escapes me at the moment) Perhaps you're thinking of glosses? I'm not familiar with graded readers, but I am rather familiar with mediæval manuscripts, wherein it's common to see copies of Latin works with little annotations near certain (sometimes all) words. When the gloss has been added above (or below) the word(s) they annotate, they're said to be interlinear, but marginal glosses aren't unheard of. The glosses were sometimes written by the same scribe that made the copy, but often they appear to have been added later, perhaps by the owner of the book—sometimes in a comically small hand so as to fit in narrow spaces :)

Timpy 8y ago

Do you have any suggestions for a first novel in Japanese? I am already reading slice-of-life manga, but the pictures and furigana are a crutch, and the vocab is pretty much limited to everyday life.

pouetpouet 8y ago
I would look into graded readers. Related : Do 20 pages of a book give you 90% of its words? Link: https://blog.vocapouch.com/do-20-pages-of-a-book-gives-you-90-of-its-words-795a405afe70 https://blog.vocapouch.com/do-20-pages-of-a-book-gives-you-9... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14673229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14673229
corey_moncure 8y ago
A couple light / young adult fiction books I've read cover to cover: 星虫　クローズドノートパラレルワールドラブストーリー
adrianN 8y ago
The DJT Guide is pretty good: https://djtguide.neocities.org/reading%20list.html https://djtguide.neocities.org/reading%20list.html
dwg 8y ago
I used to spend a lot of time trying to find good books but a funny thing happened. The more time I spent choosing a book, the less likely I was to read or finish reading it. I gave up and started choosing randomly. At a convenience store or book store I find the display of "new/popular" books, pick one up, and read a few paragraphs to check the level of difficulty and for cursory interest. If it seems about right—I could generally understand even without recognizing all the words—buy and try. Recently I read Harry Potter #1 and カエルの楽園, which turned out to be a politically motivated parable about Japanese rearmament. They were both at a great level for me. Currently I am reading ハツカネズミと人間 (Of Mice and Men) which was given to me by a friend. Next up is a book on eating one meal a day.