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Most new cars all run synthetic fluids and platinum plugs so maintenance is already greatly reduced. Oil change every 10k miles, spark plugs every 75k miles.

by adrr 8y ago

Most new cars all run synthetic fluids and platinum plugs so maintenance is already greatly reduced. Oil change every 10k miles, spark plugs every 75k miles. The other liquids don't even need to be changed except maybe a flush of the radiator every 100k miles. The most costly thing on luxury cars is that they usually come with performance tires that last 20k miles.

qaq 8y ago
If you think this all the maintenance Mercedes or BMW will need ...
- close04 8y ago
  The maintenance costs almost surely drop assuming everything else stays the same. Simply by having a far simpler drivetrain that should need less maintenance. But I'm sure auto manufacturers and dealers will invent new ways of making money. Paid software updates? Prohibitively expensive batteries and battery swaps? Charging slightly more for the increasing number of parts that make up the rest of the car and break down regardless of drivetrain? An ICE powered car can happily chug along with relatively little maintenance for far longer than any of today's batteries will last. The engine won't wear out as quickly as the battery. This means the resale value of an EV could be vastly diminished if the buyer realizes the utility of the car has gone down because the battery is worn to a level that would require the above mentioned swap. Also, with the quick pace of advancing technology an old EV has very little resale value unlike classic tech that mostly gets touchups these days, so 5 years difference isn't that noticeable. So don't worry about these guys, as long as something can break down they will find ways to milk you for the repair. And on top of that there's nothing stopping classic manufacturers from dumping dealership networks altogether as soon as they go EV only if they find this to be a financially sound move. I'm pretty sure everybody is just calculating what's the perfect time to introduce subscription services so they don't cannibalize current sales. So future sales and support models will surely be very different from what we take for granted today.
  - rebuilder 8y ago
    Paid software updates you say? I have a 2014 Opel Ampera and noticed the maps on the nav system are pretty out of date. So on a whim, I googled how to update them. Apparently you have to get a DVD coded to only work in your particular vehicle, and it cost over 200 pounds! Given how clumsy the nav is to use in the first place - you have to use an abcdef touchscreen keyboard for input! - I decided it wasn't for me.
- Arqu 8y ago
  I would beg to differ. I've owned owned a total of 4 higher end and one entry level Mercedes between me and my closer family members. Litterally for the first couple years the only maintnence is the general stuff like oil, filters and occasionally the breaking pads. And we all drive a significant mileage per year over various terrains. The actual cost of running it is lower for premium cars than it is for others. Disclaimer though after about 6-7 years of heavier use repairs do start comming up and they can be costly but that is to be expected if you want to run for another half decade or so. The only difference between the more expensive models is that once you hit this period the prices are proportionately higher. Though this excludes sports and ultra premium cars. They are so nicely tuned and set up to last for a long time. Chains instead of rubber, higher quality parts and well tested engines really do work miracles. And I expect to see very similar paterns for electric cars as they are all pretty much premium segment anyways. We just need a bit more time for the TCO to ve a good metric. Sources: owned and driven a lot of cars from the very low end to the very high end with a lot of in between.
  - SECProto 8y ago
    > The actual cost of running it is lower for premium cars than it is for others. Disclaimer though after about 6-7 years of heavier use repairs do start comming up and they can be costly but that is to be expected if you want to run for another half decade or so. I mean if we're just comparing anecdotes, I bought an entry-level model Toyota Yaris 6 years ago, I've driven it 140000 km, and i've only done the maintenence the manual suggests (oil, filters, other fluids, brake pads..) and it's still running like new. The rest of my family drives Japanese cars (toyota, honda, suzuki) and they have had very similar experience - no extra maintenance for years except a few initial bathtub curve manufacturing defects that got fixed under warranty.
    - meguest 8y ago
      Lots of Japanese cars have been (and some still are) sold in the U.K. without sufficient rust protection from new. The MX5 is one of the worst for this and is still delivered in 2018 without underseal at all.
- cc439 8y ago
  Everything else that can break is also something that can break on an electric car. Major powertrain failures are so rare as to be practically nonexistent in modern passenger cars. All the reliability that stems from an electric motors simplicity means nothing when it's the completely blown out suspension and failed power window regulators that cause someone to scrap a used up electric car.
ryanmarsh 8y ago
My Escalade begs to differ. Every time I go to the dealership (which has been far too often) it is very very busy. I'm glad the industry solved the plugs/fluids maintenance issues because it's time to solve some other problems. I've replaced 5 (yes 5, not all the same one either) door handles on my $90k Escalade. I've replaced the suspension entirely (including air compressor for the rear shocks) twice. I could go on... If Cadillac made an electric car (and it wasn't a piece of shit) it might just bankrupt that dealership. The dealers that might do well with EV's are the quality/value brands like Toyota. I've made one dealer visit in my 4 Runner's 200k mi. life and it was something I could have easily taken elsewhere.
- occamrazor 8y ago
  It looks like your Cadillac dealer would have been equally happy to sell an electric Escalade. None of the problems you listed is related to the powertrain.
  - ryanmarsh 8y ago
    I stand corrected.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  " I've replaced 5 (yes 5, not all the same one either) door handles on my $90k Escalade. I've replaced the suspension entirely (including air compressor for the rear shocks) twice. I could go on..." Actually these problems still would exist in an EV.
  - ryanmarsh 8y ago
    Fair enough. You raise a good point. I've only replaced one transmission ever (it was the Escalade). Most cars these days don't have drive train issues. I see your point. Maybe if they keep making cheap doorhandles these dealers will be fine.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
joezydeco 8y ago
Go price what a new set of brakes costs on a BMW or Porsche and then we can chat about tires.
- kenhwang 8y ago
  Unless you optioned $15k carbon ceramics (which last 3x as long), the standard brake pads don't run much more expensive than other cars ($100-200 per pair). Rotors might cost $500/pair, but you're not replacing them as frequently as tires. $200+/tire still costs more than brakes and need to be changed much more frequently.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    other cars ($100-200 per pair) The last time I had brakes done, it was $80 for the back pair (about a year ago), and $120 for the front pair (about six months ago). And that was at a dealership, with tax and labor. $100-200/pair doesn't sound average to me.
    - kenhwang 8y ago
      Point is, the brakes on a car are cheaper than the tires for the same car. I'd be very surprised if you can get a full set of tires + labor for less than your quoted $200 total for brakes.
- adrr 8y ago
  Tires on my Porsche are $500 a pop. Brake pads are $200 max for the Brembo brakes on it.
  - qaq 8y ago
    This includes labor or just parts?
    - meguest 8y ago
      Porsche require you fit special N rated tires if you want to keep your car in warranty.
hourislate 8y ago
The Most and Least Expensive Cars to Maintain. https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expe...
- davrosthedalek 8y ago
  That website urgently needs to add error estimates on these numbers. It might also be interesting to look at repair cost relative to car cost.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  I'm glad you posted this. The thread is mostly full of anecdotal claims, which makes sense since few people clock enough time in enough cars in a lifetime to claim statistical significance. However if we're talking about maintenance costs, it's really about average value and standard deviation.
- vanilla-almond 8y ago
  Here's a UK survey from 2015 of 50,000 motorists with remarkably similar results. To sum up: Japanese cars were the most reliable and dependable. And the cheapest to repair. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32332210 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32332210
- otterpro 8y ago
  Slightly off topic, but this article confirms the reliability and engineering feat of Toyota, along with my experience as a car owner for the past 30 years. I currently own Toyota Prius (ranked #1 in lowest maintenance cost) with 200k miles and I cannot believe how reliable this car is. Had I known this, I would've had bought only Toyota in the past, but I had only learned my lesson in the most painful way. I've had Mercury, which confirms extremely high maintenance (ranked 7th in the list) and Infiniti (ranked 12th), which seems about right, as well as Mazdas, etc. I still have nightmares thinking about what I went through with those other cars. Scotty Kilmer, a popular automechanic Youtuber, also confirms that Toyota is the most reliable car that he has ever owned or worked with. Not all Japanese car manufacturers are the same. Nissan and Honda are not even in the same league as Toyota. I hope that Toyota creates all-electric Prius someday.
hardtke 8y ago
A friend has an independent Mercedes/Porsche repair place in SF and told me that most of his business is repairing doors/windows and other issues like that. These repairs tend to be insanely expensive compared to what you think they should cost.
- kindatrue 8y ago
  Well, SF does have 70-80 smash and grabs (car windows broken) per day so...
- radicalbyte 8y ago
  The VW range of cars use a cheap part in the window opening mechanism which breaks every two-three years. The part is simple, the repair is easy but very time consuming. This problem has been around for more than a decade but VW won't fix it. Why would they, it's a great little earner?
  - et2o 8y ago
    If the part is cheap VW wouldn't earn from it, the dealers would.
    - CamperBob2 8y ago
      Happy dealer == happy manufacturer, in this business.
mtgx 8y ago
Those "features" seem minor compared to the fact that you won't even need to change the oil, and as well as many other components in an EV.
jacquesm 8y ago
Oil changes every 10k miles is strictly a North American thing, the same cars run just fine with oil changes a multiple of that apart.
- chrisper 8y ago
  In Europe we change every 30000 km or every year.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
  What are some intervals that you've seen recommended in Europe? I seem to recall Porsche going to 30k mile intervals, but I believe that they had a shorter filter interval. Of course, they were using a synthetic. My understanding is that this was a move to make their cars more environmentally friendly, and I'm not sure whether engineering approved, but the manufacturer only really cares about longevity for the duration of most leases or initial ownership periods (obviously a reputation for longevity helps sales overall, but if they're going to cut corners they're going to focus on initial ownership satisfaction). IMO there's no point in discussing oil change intervals unless you have an oil analysis (e.g Blackstone Labs) to prove the condition of your oil.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    20K miles is pretty normal for new cars, some Japanese and German brands will go higher, even for a first interval. I don't know any modern brands that are using non-synthetic oil.
- ansible 8y ago
  > Oil changes every 10k miles is strictly a North American thing, the same cars run just fine with oil changes a multiple of that apart. That is not a good idea if you want your engine to last.
tomatocracy 8y ago
20k miles... unless you drive the car like it's a performance car. Half that is more like it in my experience. And the dealers make a HUGE margin on tyres - the markup vs third party is close to 100% and the third parties are still making a good margin. There's also things like A/C maintenance etc which is pretty profitable for them.

by adrr 8y ago

qaq 8y ago

If you think this all the maintenance Mercedes or BMW will need ...

close04 8y ago
The maintenance costs almost surely drop assuming everything else stays the same. Simply by having a far simpler drivetrain that should need less maintenance. But I'm sure auto manufacturers and dealers will invent new ways of making money. Paid software updates? Prohibitively expensive batteries and battery swaps? Charging slightly more for the increasing number of parts that make up the rest of the car and break down regardless of drivetrain? An ICE powered car can happily chug along with relatively little maintenance for far longer than any of today's batteries will last. The engine won't wear out as quickly as the battery. This means the resale value of an EV could be vastly diminished if the buyer realizes the utility of the car has gone down because the battery is worn to a level that would require the above mentioned swap. Also, with the quick pace of advancing technology an old EV has very little resale value unlike classic tech that mostly gets touchups these days, so 5 years difference isn't that noticeable. So don't worry about these guys, as long as something can break down they will find ways to milk you for the repair. And on top of that there's nothing stopping classic manufacturers from dumping dealership networks altogether as soon as they go EV only if they find this to be a financially sound move. I'm pretty sure everybody is just calculating what's the perfect time to introduce subscription services so they don't cannibalize current sales. So future sales and support models will surely be very different from what we take for granted today.
- rebuilder 8y ago
  Paid software updates you say? I have a 2014 Opel Ampera and noticed the maps on the nav system are pretty out of date. So on a whim, I googled how to update them. Apparently you have to get a DVD coded to only work in your particular vehicle, and it cost over 200 pounds! Given how clumsy the nav is to use in the first place - you have to use an abcdef touchscreen keyboard for input! - I decided it wasn't for me.
Arqu 8y ago
I would beg to differ. I've owned owned a total of 4 higher end and one entry level Mercedes between me and my closer family members. Litterally for the first couple years the only maintnence is the general stuff like oil, filters and occasionally the breaking pads. And we all drive a significant mileage per year over various terrains. The actual cost of running it is lower for premium cars than it is for others. Disclaimer though after about 6-7 years of heavier use repairs do start comming up and they can be costly but that is to be expected if you want to run for another half decade or so. The only difference between the more expensive models is that once you hit this period the prices are proportionately higher. Though this excludes sports and ultra premium cars. They are so nicely tuned and set up to last for a long time. Chains instead of rubber, higher quality parts and well tested engines really do work miracles. And I expect to see very similar paterns for electric cars as they are all pretty much premium segment anyways. We just need a bit more time for the TCO to ve a good metric. Sources: owned and driven a lot of cars from the very low end to the very high end with a lot of in between.
- SECProto 8y ago
  > The actual cost of running it is lower for premium cars than it is for others. Disclaimer though after about 6-7 years of heavier use repairs do start comming up and they can be costly but that is to be expected if you want to run for another half decade or so. I mean if we're just comparing anecdotes, I bought an entry-level model Toyota Yaris 6 years ago, I've driven it 140000 km, and i've only done the maintenence the manual suggests (oil, filters, other fluids, brake pads..) and it's still running like new. The rest of my family drives Japanese cars (toyota, honda, suzuki) and they have had very similar experience - no extra maintenance for years except a few initial bathtub curve manufacturing defects that got fixed under warranty.
  - meguest 8y ago
    Lots of Japanese cars have been (and some still are) sold in the U.K. without sufficient rust protection from new. The MX5 is one of the worst for this and is still delivered in 2018 without underseal at all.
cc439 8y ago
Everything else that can break is also something that can break on an electric car. Major powertrain failures are so rare as to be practically nonexistent in modern passenger cars. All the reliability that stems from an electric motors simplicity means nothing when it's the completely blown out suspension and failed power window regulators that cause someone to scrap a used up electric car.

ryanmarsh 8y ago

My Escalade begs to differ. Every time I go to the dealership (which has been far too often) it is very very busy. I'm glad the industry solved the plugs/fluids maintenance issues because it's time to solve some other problems. I've replaced 5 (yes 5, not all the same one either) door handles on my $90k Escalade. I've replaced the suspension entirely (including air compressor for the rear shocks) twice. I could go on... If Cadillac made an electric car (and it wasn't a piece of shit) it might just bankrupt that dealership. The dealers that might do well with EV's are the quality/value brands like Toyota. I've made one dealer visit in my 4 Runner's 200k mi. life and it was something I could have easily taken elsewhere.

occamrazor 8y ago
It looks like your Cadillac dealer would have been equally happy to sell an electric Escalade. None of the problems you listed is related to the powertrain.
- ryanmarsh 8y ago
  I stand corrected.
maxxxxx 8y ago
" I've replaced 5 (yes 5, not all the same one either) door handles on my $90k Escalade. I've replaced the suspension entirely (including air compressor for the rear shocks) twice. I could go on..." Actually these problems still would exist in an EV.
- ryanmarsh 8y ago
  Fair enough. You raise a good point. I've only replaced one transmission ever (it was the Escalade). Most cars these days don't have drive train issues. I see your point. Maybe if they keep making cheap doorhandles these dealers will be fine.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago

joezydeco 8y ago

Go price what a new set of brakes costs on a BMW or Porsche and then we can chat about tires.

kenhwang 8y ago
Unless you optioned $15k carbon ceramics (which last 3x as long), the standard brake pads don't run much more expensive than other cars ($100-200 per pair). Rotors might cost $500/pair, but you're not replacing them as frequently as tires. $200+/tire still costs more than brakes and need to be changed much more frequently.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  other cars ($100-200 per pair) The last time I had brakes done, it was $80 for the back pair (about a year ago), and $120 for the front pair (about six months ago). And that was at a dealership, with tax and labor. $100-200/pair doesn't sound average to me.
  - kenhwang 8y ago
    Point is, the brakes on a car are cheaper than the tires for the same car. I'd be very surprised if you can get a full set of tires + labor for less than your quoted $200 total for brakes.
adrr 8y ago
Tires on my Porsche are $500 a pop. Brake pads are $200 max for the Brembo brakes on it.
- qaq 8y ago
  This includes labor or just parts?
  - meguest 8y ago
    Porsche require you fit special N rated tires if you want to keep your car in warranty.

hourislate 8y ago

The Most and Least Expensive Cars to Maintain. https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expe...

davrosthedalek 8y ago
That website urgently needs to add error estimates on these numbers. It might also be interesting to look at repair cost relative to car cost.
munchbunny 8y ago
I'm glad you posted this. The thread is mostly full of anecdotal claims, which makes sense since few people clock enough time in enough cars in a lifetime to claim statistical significance. However if we're talking about maintenance costs, it's really about average value and standard deviation.
vanilla-almond 8y ago
Here's a UK survey from 2015 of 50,000 motorists with remarkably similar results. To sum up: Japanese cars were the most reliable and dependable. And the cheapest to repair. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32332210 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32332210
otterpro 8y ago
Slightly off topic, but this article confirms the reliability and engineering feat of Toyota, along with my experience as a car owner for the past 30 years. I currently own Toyota Prius (ranked #1 in lowest maintenance cost) with 200k miles and I cannot believe how reliable this car is. Had I known this, I would've had bought only Toyota in the past, but I had only learned my lesson in the most painful way. I've had Mercury, which confirms extremely high maintenance (ranked 7th in the list) and Infiniti (ranked 12th), which seems about right, as well as Mazdas, etc. I still have nightmares thinking about what I went through with those other cars. Scotty Kilmer, a popular automechanic Youtuber, also confirms that Toyota is the most reliable car that he has ever owned or worked with. Not all Japanese car manufacturers are the same. Nissan and Honda are not even in the same league as Toyota. I hope that Toyota creates all-electric Prius someday.

hardtke 8y ago

A friend has an independent Mercedes/Porsche repair place in SF and told me that most of his business is repairing doors/windows and other issues like that. These repairs tend to be insanely expensive compared to what you think they should cost.

kindatrue 8y ago
Well, SF does have 70-80 smash and grabs (car windows broken) per day so...
radicalbyte 8y ago
The VW range of cars use a cheap part in the window opening mechanism which breaks every two-three years. The part is simple, the repair is easy but very time consuming. This problem has been around for more than a decade but VW won't fix it. Why would they, it's a great little earner?
- et2o 8y ago
  If the part is cheap VW wouldn't earn from it, the dealers would.
  - CamperBob2 8y ago
    Happy dealer == happy manufacturer, in this business.

mtgx 8y ago

Those "features" seem minor compared to the fact that you won't even need to change the oil, and as well as many other components in an EV.

jacquesm 8y ago

Oil changes every 10k miles is strictly a North American thing, the same cars run just fine with oil changes a multiple of that apart.

chrisper 8y ago
In Europe we change every 30000 km or every year.
hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
What are some intervals that you've seen recommended in Europe? I seem to recall Porsche going to 30k mile intervals, but I believe that they had a shorter filter interval. Of course, they were using a synthetic. My understanding is that this was a move to make their cars more environmentally friendly, and I'm not sure whether engineering approved, but the manufacturer only really cares about longevity for the duration of most leases or initial ownership periods (obviously a reputation for longevity helps sales overall, but if they're going to cut corners they're going to focus on initial ownership satisfaction). IMO there's no point in discussing oil change intervals unless you have an oil analysis (e.g Blackstone Labs) to prove the condition of your oil.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  20K miles is pretty normal for new cars, some Japanese and German brands will go higher, even for a first interval. I don't know any modern brands that are using non-synthetic oil.
ansible 8y ago
> Oil changes every 10k miles is strictly a North American thing, the same cars run just fine with oil changes a multiple of that apart. That is not a good idea if you want your engine to last.

tomatocracy 8y ago

20k miles... unless you drive the car like it's a performance car. Half that is more like it in my experience. And the dealers make a HUGE margin on tyres - the markup vs third party is close to 100% and the third parties are still making a good margin. There's also things like A/C maintenance etc which is pretty profitable for them.