8 ms·

The big thing about Tesla is they have their supercharger network, are these other brands expected to run their own versions or just use Tesla's stations?

dabeeeenster 8y ago
They can't use Telsa's network. If that's what you meant? I took delivery of a 2018 Nissan Leaf 4 months ago in the UK. The car is amazing - the charging network is a sad joke. Luckily I have a drive so largely negated, but the problem for Tesla competitors is, the larger the battery the slower the charging infrastructure feels. If you need to recharge 70kwh on a 48kwh charging port, its not great waiting 1.5 hours at a motorway services. None of the competition are aiming at the model 3 or Leaf either, which is where the real market is. Nissan have announced a ~60kwh Leaf for 2019. They seem to be the only ones who are really close behind tesla.
- mikeyouse 8y ago
  Chevy has been selling a 60kWh - 400km EV that costs $30k after Federal Tax rebate since late 2016/early 2017: https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car
  - dabeeeenster 8y ago
    Sorry yes my bad - but its not for sale in the UK
    - mikeyouse 8y ago
      Ah right, that whole localization thing. I forgot that GM sold Opel as well, so they don't have the same vehicles any more.
      - dabeeeenster 8y ago
        It's sold as Vauxhall in the UK and Australia. Terrible brand here in the UK.
      - gsnedders 8y ago
        The Bolt was also always LHD-only, and I don't think there was ever serious consideration made to selling it in the UK market, even prior to the sale of Opel/Vauxhall. Is the Bolt on sale anywhere outside of North America yet?
        mikeyouse 8y ago
        It's fairly popular (for a electric hatchback) in Canada and in South Korea (over 1,000 units/month now) -- They sold a few thousand as the Amperra E in Europe but that whole plan was scuttled with the Opel sale to PSA. They were taking a bath on currency losses. There's talk of importing GM-branded Bolts to Europe now, but I think that's TBD. Source for Korea sales: https://insideevs.com/chevy-bolt-sales-south-korea-match-us/ https://insideevs.com/chevy-bolt-sales-south-korea-match-us/
        gsnedders 8y ago
        Ah, I'd missed there actually were Opel Ampera E sold; I'd had the understanding the sale stopped any deliveries ever happening.
- DamnInteresting 8y ago
  > None of the competition are aiming at the model 3 or Leaf either, which is where the real market is. Nissan have announced a ~60kwh Leaf for 2019. They seem to be the only ones who are really close behind tesla. The Chevy Bolt EV is an excellent offering in this space, I have a 2017 model. ~230 mile range, ~$37k price tag before tax rebate.
  - codeulike 8y ago
    I'd love to have a Bolt if Chevvy could be bothered to sell it in my country (UK). They dont seem to have any interest in selling it.
    - DamnInteresting 8y ago
      Evidently GM is shipping a lot of Bolt EVs to South Korea, contributing to low inventories elsewhere (including here in the colonies). It took almost a year for me to get my Bolt after registering my interest with local Chevy dealers. GM claims that they'll increase production for the 2019 model year, but time will tell. https://insideevs.com/south-korean-chevy-bolt-ev-sales-crush-u-s-for-june/ https://insideevs.com/south-korean-chevy-bolt-ev-sales-crush...
      - codeulike 8y ago
        Chevrolet Bolt electric vehicle won't be sold in the UK https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-detroit-motor-show/chevrolet-bolt-electric-vehicle-wont-be-sold-uk https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-detroit-motor...
- Someone 8y ago
  The Hyundai Kona Electric (64 kWh, 300 mile range) gets good reviews, it seems to be at least comparable in price to a $35,000 Tesla 3, and it is being sold at that price today (but that’s difficult to compare; I don’t think there is a country where both cars are sold) Charging network will solve itself, I think. The further the biggest player is ahead in a region, the more likely it is that the smaller players will cooperate on a single fast charging standard.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> they have their supercharger network How much would it cost to replicate the supercharger network? I’ve always thought Tesla’s deepest moat was its battery production.
- justin66 8y ago
  > I’ve always thought Tesla’s deepest moat was its battery production. I wonder. Panasonic's got a truly massive amount invested in the Nevada "gigafactory" and I imagine they could sell batteries to Mercedes if they wanted to.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    Panasonic can sell cells for sure, but not batteries. Tesla owns the batteries, Panasonic owns the cells. This is confusing because most people refer to "cells" as "batteries". A "9V Battery" is in fact a battery, made up of 6 cells. But an "AA battery" is actually a cell (made up of a single cell of size AA). Its important to remember the technicality here. An 18650 Lithium Ion Cell is made by Panasonic. When the cells are merged together with electronics (over-voltage / under-voltage sensors, charging, balancing, etc. etc.), that's when it becomes a "battery". Tesla's biggest moat is certainly its "battery", the electronics and smarts that it uses to put cells together. But Panasonic owns the chemistry, so to replicate Tesla's efforts, other manufacturers will be able to buy cells from Panasonic and build their own batteries. The question therefore, is whether or not other companies can combine cells in such a way that they are properly cooled, properly maintained, etc. etc. It seems possible for sure, but Tesla certainly has a headstart on battery technology. (But no "moat" on cell technology).
    - justin66 8y ago
      Fair point about the terminology, but the comment I was replying to mentioned "battery production" as a moat, not "battery technology." I just assume the hard part about battery production is not designing the silicon but cranking out the necessary number of high-quality cells, with all due respect to Tesla's excellent electronics and design.
foepys 8y ago
I can only speak for Germany but there are many local electricity providers that are putting charging networks up. There is also a joint venture by Daimler, VW, and BMW to build a network. If you compare Tesla's network with all other available charging stations, Tesla's network is tiny, especially the super chargers are often 100km apart. Although, a lot of the non-Tesla charging stations can only deliver 3.7kW, which is pretty bad.
- princekolt 8y ago
  > 3.7kW At what voltage? This is puny!
  - shkkmo 8y ago
    The voltage doesn't matter in terms of charging speed. (Since for a given wattage, a higher voltage means a lower amperage.)
    - princekolt 8y ago
      Oh of course. I ran loops around my own line of thinking. Thanks!
- rconti 8y ago
  3.7kW is more than pretty bad, it's downright terrible. That's something like 15 miles of range for every hour charging. I don't think I could deal with that at home, let alone while attempting to travel somewhere.
compcoffee 8y ago
>The big thing about Tesla is they have their supercharger network What is so unique about Supercharger technology that can't be replicated by 1) the other auto manufacturers or 2) the oil companies who will need to replace their fuel station income? It's a plug, not exactly rocket science. Superchargers aren't even state-of-the-art anymore.
- AtlasBarfed 8y ago
  So where are all the competing charging stations? The other manufacturers have dealer networks but nothing has appeared. This is where the squabbling politics of main manufacturers will start to appear, both in wrangling the dealer network and getting the company to invest dollars to build that out rather than stay with the tried and true ICE business. If anything, this will result in a constant several-year lag of competitiveness with manufacturers with true EV commitment.
- rconti 8y ago
  They easily can replicate it with time and money. However, Mercedes is still talking about the car they'll start building Real Soon Like Now. Yet, oddly silent about their fast charging network.
- xedeon 8y ago
  Surely, anyone with deep pockets can replicate it. However, it will most likely take a lot of time since getting city permits tend to be bureaucratic, at least in the US. In the case of MB, they haven't even announced anything (I think) of the sort.
usrusr 8y ago
In Europe, there is a big pooling of resources going on against the Tesla network under the Ionity brand. For the USA, I guess that the big electrifyamerica investment that Volkswagen has agreed to as part of the diesel settlement is expected to result in an open charging network dense enough to rival Tesla's.
spaceywilly 8y ago
I don't think the supercharger network is the right model, anyways. It makes more sense to charge an EV where you already want to stop and spend a chunk of time, ie. at a restaurant or shopping center. Most of the superchargers I've seen are set up next to existing gas stations, not places I'd want to spend 40+ minutes at waiting for my battery to charge. Whichever company figures this out and teams up with restaurants to put chargers in their parking lots will win mass market EV adoption. It makes sense to plan your long road trips around when you want to stop for a meal. You can enjoy a nice experience while you wait for your car to charge instead of the current supercharger network where it seems like a chore.
- rconti 8y ago
  I've not seen a supercharger next to an existing gas station. On Tesla's website (and on the in-car display) they specifically identify which services are available at that location. Seems to be a lot of restaurant/starbucks type places. I don't have a ton of experience with them so I can't speak to all of them, but they at least try to locate near services for this very reason -- 40 minutes is a long time to sit twiddling your thumbs. Last time I used a supercharger, though, the car charged so fast in was in a HURRY to get my coffee and locate a restroom!
- dmode 8y ago
  Superchargers are mostly set-up around restaurants and shopping malls. There are a couple that have Tesla specific lounges, like the one in Kettlemen City
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  These companies have chargers all over central LA. They tend to partner with strip malls and grocery stores to install them in their lots. https://www.evconnect.com/ https://www.evconnect.com/ https://www.chargepoint.com/ https://www.chargepoint.com/ http://www.blinkcharging.com/ http://www.blinkcharging.com/ I'm considering an electric car for my (meager currently, though probably increasing soon) driving needs and the idea of charging every few days while running errands is great.
maxxxxx 8y ago
I sincerely hope there will be a standard charging system that gets deployed everywhere. Can you imagine if every car company had its own gas stations? If that happens then Tesla's network will quickly look like CompuServe or AOL.
- cesarb 8y ago
  There already is a standard charging system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

dabeeeenster 8y ago

They can't use Telsa's network. If that's what you meant? I took delivery of a 2018 Nissan Leaf 4 months ago in the UK. The car is amazing - the charging network is a sad joke. Luckily I have a drive so largely negated, but the problem for Tesla competitors is, the larger the battery the slower the charging infrastructure feels. If you need to recharge 70kwh on a 48kwh charging port, its not great waiting 1.5 hours at a motorway services. None of the competition are aiming at the model 3 or Leaf either, which is where the real market is. Nissan have announced a ~60kwh Leaf for 2019. They seem to be the only ones who are really close behind tesla.

mikeyouse 8y ago
Chevy has been selling a 60kWh - 400km EV that costs $30k after Federal Tax rebate since late 2016/early 2017: https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car
- dabeeeenster 8y ago
  Sorry yes my bad - but its not for sale in the UK
  - mikeyouse 8y ago
    Ah right, that whole localization thing. I forgot that GM sold Opel as well, so they don't have the same vehicles any more.
    - dabeeeenster 8y ago
      It's sold as Vauxhall in the UK and Australia. Terrible brand here in the UK.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      The Bolt was also always LHD-only, and I don't think there was ever serious consideration made to selling it in the UK market, even prior to the sale of Opel/Vauxhall. Is the Bolt on sale anywhere outside of North America yet?
      - mikeyouse 8y ago
        It's fairly popular (for a electric hatchback) in Canada and in South Korea (over 1,000 units/month now) -- They sold a few thousand as the Amperra E in Europe but that whole plan was scuttled with the Opel sale to PSA. They were taking a bath on currency losses. There's talk of importing GM-branded Bolts to Europe now, but I think that's TBD. Source for Korea sales: https://insideevs.com/chevy-bolt-sales-south-korea-match-us/ https://insideevs.com/chevy-bolt-sales-south-korea-match-us/
        gsnedders 8y ago
        Ah, I'd missed there actually were Opel Ampera E sold; I'd had the understanding the sale stopped any deliveries ever happening.
DamnInteresting 8y ago
> None of the competition are aiming at the model 3 or Leaf either, which is where the real market is. Nissan have announced a ~60kwh Leaf for 2019. They seem to be the only ones who are really close behind tesla. The Chevy Bolt EV is an excellent offering in this space, I have a 2017 model. ~230 mile range, ~$37k price tag before tax rebate.
- codeulike 8y ago
  I'd love to have a Bolt if Chevvy could be bothered to sell it in my country (UK). They dont seem to have any interest in selling it.
  - DamnInteresting 8y ago
    Evidently GM is shipping a lot of Bolt EVs to South Korea, contributing to low inventories elsewhere (including here in the colonies). It took almost a year for me to get my Bolt after registering my interest with local Chevy dealers. GM claims that they'll increase production for the 2019 model year, but time will tell. https://insideevs.com/south-korean-chevy-bolt-ev-sales-crush-u-s-for-june/ https://insideevs.com/south-korean-chevy-bolt-ev-sales-crush...
    - codeulike 8y ago
      Chevrolet Bolt electric vehicle won't be sold in the UK https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-detroit-motor-show/chevrolet-bolt-electric-vehicle-wont-be-sold-uk https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-detroit-motor...
Someone 8y ago
The Hyundai Kona Electric (64 kWh, 300 mile range) gets good reviews, it seems to be at least comparable in price to a $35,000 Tesla 3, and it is being sold at that price today (but that’s difficult to compare; I don’t think there is a country where both cars are sold) Charging network will solve itself, I think. The further the biggest player is ahead in a region, the more likely it is that the smaller players will cooperate on a single fast charging standard.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> they have their supercharger network How much would it cost to replicate the supercharger network? I’ve always thought Tesla’s deepest moat was its battery production.

justin66 8y ago
> I’ve always thought Tesla’s deepest moat was its battery production. I wonder. Panasonic's got a truly massive amount invested in the Nevada "gigafactory" and I imagine they could sell batteries to Mercedes if they wanted to.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  Panasonic can sell cells for sure, but not batteries. Tesla owns the batteries, Panasonic owns the cells. This is confusing because most people refer to "cells" as "batteries". A "9V Battery" is in fact a battery, made up of 6 cells. But an "AA battery" is actually a cell (made up of a single cell of size AA). Its important to remember the technicality here. An 18650 Lithium Ion Cell is made by Panasonic. When the cells are merged together with electronics (over-voltage / under-voltage sensors, charging, balancing, etc. etc.), that's when it becomes a "battery". Tesla's biggest moat is certainly its "battery", the electronics and smarts that it uses to put cells together. But Panasonic owns the chemistry, so to replicate Tesla's efforts, other manufacturers will be able to buy cells from Panasonic and build their own batteries. The question therefore, is whether or not other companies can combine cells in such a way that they are properly cooled, properly maintained, etc. etc. It seems possible for sure, but Tesla certainly has a headstart on battery technology. (But no "moat" on cell technology).
  - justin66 8y ago
    Fair point about the terminology, but the comment I was replying to mentioned "battery production" as a moat, not "battery technology." I just assume the hard part about battery production is not designing the silicon but cranking out the necessary number of high-quality cells, with all due respect to Tesla's excellent electronics and design.

foepys 8y ago

I can only speak for Germany but there are many local electricity providers that are putting charging networks up. There is also a joint venture by Daimler, VW, and BMW to build a network. If you compare Tesla's network with all other available charging stations, Tesla's network is tiny, especially the super chargers are often 100km apart. Although, a lot of the non-Tesla charging stations can only deliver 3.7kW, which is pretty bad.

princekolt 8y ago
> 3.7kW At what voltage? This is puny!
- shkkmo 8y ago
  The voltage doesn't matter in terms of charging speed. (Since for a given wattage, a higher voltage means a lower amperage.)
  - princekolt 8y ago
    Oh of course. I ran loops around my own line of thinking. Thanks!
rconti 8y ago
3.7kW is more than pretty bad, it's downright terrible. That's something like 15 miles of range for every hour charging. I don't think I could deal with that at home, let alone while attempting to travel somewhere.

compcoffee 8y ago

>The big thing about Tesla is they have their supercharger network What is so unique about Supercharger technology that can't be replicated by 1) the other auto manufacturers or 2) the oil companies who will need to replace their fuel station income? It's a plug, not exactly rocket science. Superchargers aren't even state-of-the-art anymore.

AtlasBarfed 8y ago
So where are all the competing charging stations? The other manufacturers have dealer networks but nothing has appeared. This is where the squabbling politics of main manufacturers will start to appear, both in wrangling the dealer network and getting the company to invest dollars to build that out rather than stay with the tried and true ICE business. If anything, this will result in a constant several-year lag of competitiveness with manufacturers with true EV commitment.
rconti 8y ago
They easily can replicate it with time and money. However, Mercedes is still talking about the car they'll start building Real Soon Like Now. Yet, oddly silent about their fast charging network.
xedeon 8y ago
Surely, anyone with deep pockets can replicate it. However, it will most likely take a lot of time since getting city permits tend to be bureaucratic, at least in the US. In the case of MB, they haven't even announced anything (I think) of the sort.

usrusr 8y ago

In Europe, there is a big pooling of resources going on against the Tesla network under the Ionity brand. For the USA, I guess that the big electrifyamerica investment that Volkswagen has agreed to as part of the diesel settlement is expected to result in an open charging network dense enough to rival Tesla's.

spaceywilly 8y ago

I don't think the supercharger network is the right model, anyways. It makes more sense to charge an EV where you already want to stop and spend a chunk of time, ie. at a restaurant or shopping center. Most of the superchargers I've seen are set up next to existing gas stations, not places I'd want to spend 40+ minutes at waiting for my battery to charge. Whichever company figures this out and teams up with restaurants to put chargers in their parking lots will win mass market EV adoption. It makes sense to plan your long road trips around when you want to stop for a meal. You can enjoy a nice experience while you wait for your car to charge instead of the current supercharger network where it seems like a chore.

rconti 8y ago
I've not seen a supercharger next to an existing gas station. On Tesla's website (and on the in-car display) they specifically identify which services are available at that location. Seems to be a lot of restaurant/starbucks type places. I don't have a ton of experience with them so I can't speak to all of them, but they at least try to locate near services for this very reason -- 40 minutes is a long time to sit twiddling your thumbs. Last time I used a supercharger, though, the car charged so fast in was in a HURRY to get my coffee and locate a restroom!
dmode 8y ago
Superchargers are mostly set-up around restaurants and shopping malls. There are a couple that have Tesla specific lounges, like the one in Kettlemen City
tomjakubowski 8y ago
These companies have chargers all over central LA. They tend to partner with strip malls and grocery stores to install them in their lots. https://www.evconnect.com/ https://www.evconnect.com/ https://www.chargepoint.com/ https://www.chargepoint.com/ http://www.blinkcharging.com/ http://www.blinkcharging.com/ I'm considering an electric car for my (meager currently, though probably increasing soon) driving needs and the idea of charging every few days while running errands is great.

maxxxxx 8y ago

I sincerely hope there will be a standard charging system that gets deployed everywhere. Can you imagine if every car company had its own gas stations? If that happens then Tesla's network will quickly look like CompuServe or AOL.

cesarb 8y ago
There already is a standard charging system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System