8 ms·

Another thing I wondered about is the impact of automation and volatility on, for lack of a better word 'involuntary' micro social interactions. Until fairly r

Another thing I wondered about is the impact of automation and volatility on, for lack of a better word 'involuntary' micro social interactions. Until fairly recently people had 'forced' social interactions when doing their finances, shopping etc. Even if involuntary they 'trained' people's social skills and withered away at their acquired/innate social anxiety. Furthermore, even in these situations the persons you interacted with, the cashier at the supermarket, the bank teller, the shop assistant, were often there for a fairly long time, so that all those social-micro-transactions added up over the years. Yes, they were 'strangers', but stangers you to some extend 'knew' or where familiar with. Being around those made you less lonely. Now you do your banking through an app and a teller machine, you shop online, and if we are to believe the proponents soon your pizza and beer will be delivered by a drone and your online groceries and other purchases by a self driving van. The few contacts in those situations you might still have are not with the same person, but with randos fulfilling a 0 knowledge scripted for efficiency procedure. These interactions can't compound into a latent unspoken social bond and thus contribute nothing to alleviating the feeling of loneliness.

yters 8y ago
This was commonly understood in medieval times. Aquinas says our mutual dependency forms social ties.
- madeuptempacct 8y ago
  This is kind out of scope, but ever since Deus Ex (the game), I have wondered what the big deal about Aquinas is. Never found his work all that interesting.
  - mac01021 8y ago
    What about compared to that of all his contemporaries?
  - amelius 8y ago
    Could you explain, for people who don't know that game?
    - Devils_Avocado 8y ago
      http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Aquinas http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Aquinas plus the wikipedia article on Aquinas. Basically, he developed what were regarded at the time as deductive "proofs" for the 'self-evident' truths of Catholicism, popularising some lateral thinking around the church's teachings which was a break from the contemporary norm of "this is true because the man in the funny hat who can read the big book says that's what the book says".
    - yters 8y ago
      Aristotle's writings were making their way into the European world and were causing a controversy over whether the truths of the scripture were consistent with truths of philosophy. Aquinas provided a comprehensive treatment of the question, demonstrating to the best of his ability the two sources of truth were consistent.
  - simula67 8y ago
    I did not understand most of what he wrote. I thought he was being too obtuse. So I have been reading contemporary explanations of his ideas ( like those from Edward Feser ). I have a slightly better opinion of Acquinas today
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    I read a bit of him in college - what he pushed isn't all that special now nor something that stands out as a "holy crap" like predicting the existence of atoms but he had some influence with theodicy and other catholic foundations. While qualifying that a woman isn't at fault for being raped if she didn't enjoy it is horrifyiny misogynistic it was sadly progressive for his day. One amusing thing he had to argue against was that the Roman Empire fell due to abandoning the old gods and that if God was a real/superior power then they shouldn't have fallen.
0x4f3759df 8y ago
Someone once made the same point about fitness, you used to have to roll down your windows manually, but now its automatic. More and more muscle functions being eliminated by automation. Add them all up and it makes a difference.
- zeroxfe 8y ago
  Now that many new cars are coming with have high-def wide-angle rear view cameras, I don't really need my neck muscles anymore. At some point we'll "evolve" to rocks... rocks with wifi.
  - muse900 8y ago
    as much as "rocks with wifi" made me giggle, it also made me sad cause its very true.
  - 20after4 8y ago
    That's already a thing: https://hackaday.io/project/2058-wifi-rocks https://hackaday.io/project/2058-wifi-rocks
  - phakding 8y ago
    I am thinking, evolve more like people in WALL-E. Blobs of flesh with no muscle definition or ability to use them.
  - CM30 8y ago
    So basically like the people in WALL•E .
  - dx87 8y ago
    That reminds me of a TED talk I saw where the speaker was saying that something he's noticed with a lot of academics and tech types is that they only care about flexing their mental muscles; their bodies are only useful for moving their brain from one place to another, so a lot of what they build is done to make it so they have to use their bodies less.
dghughes 8y ago
I agree with you 100% but I have an interesting personal anecdote, pretty much the opposite. When I was young I was very shy, painfully shy even into my early 20s. All social outings were family reunions or church. But I liked computers. So in the early 1990s I bought a computer and tried this thing called the Internet. By chance I discovered IRC. It was a world of strangers who interacted in real time. I could converse without facing or looking at a person. And at the time I used it for help when working on my PC so I'm a way it was forced interaction. I've often thought if it wasnt for IRC and other Internet chat applications my life would be quite different. It helped crack my shell of shyness. In a way you're right interacting with people is the key. But in my situation it was slightly different.
- brador 8y ago
  Or maybe you would have grown out of the shyness naturally over time as you found your place in the world and grew into an adult. Guess we’ll never know eh.
- m0rphy99 8y ago
  IRC back in the days was literally another world. It was something special. You could bond with other online users like family members even though the only thing you knew about them was their nickname. We have more advance technologies now but we would never be able to experience anything like IRC again. Slack and Discord servers today are not even close.
  - bamboozled 8y ago
    I remmeber having the same deep interactions on ICQ!
  - petra 8y ago
    >> Slack and Discord servers today are not even close. Is it true ? i remember reading that game communities are a very good place to meet new friends. Is it true ? why ? Also are there any other good places online ?
  - WilliamEdward 8y ago
nickjj 8y ago
The cool thing is, you can still do all of those things today. There's really nothing stopping you from walking into a grocery store and talking to people if you want. You could also go outside for a walk to get some exercise. You'll meet plenty of people along the way (unless you live in the middle of no where).
- dannyw 8y ago
  That doesn’t address the point - which is that as a whole, micro-interactions are reducing. Just because you have the option, doesn’t mean people are doing it as much.
  - nickjj 8y ago
    > That doesn’t address the point - which is that as a whole, micro-interactions are reducing. Just because you have the option, doesn’t mean people are doing it as much. It doesn't matter if people aren't doing it as much. It only matters what you're doing. If you goto the grocery store, or the bank, or a shop or anything like that, there's always going to be tellers handling customers. Your opportunities haven't gone away or have even been diminished.
    - TimTheTinker 8y ago
      > It doesn't matter if people aren't doing it as much. Yes it does. Threads of society are being cut, which is not only causing loneliness, but also emotional distancing, political polarization, demonizing folks in other camps, etc.
      - nickjj 8y ago
        > Yes it does. Threads of society are being cut, which is not only causing loneliness, but also emotional distancing, political polarization, demonizing folks in other camps, etc. The post I replied to mentioned specifically small talk with various clerks and tellers. Those clerks and tellers are still there today, just like they were 20 years ago. If you walk into any of those stores listed, you'll find human beings present to have micro social interactions with. I know because I was a teenager back in the mid/late 1990s (no cellphones back then) and I was super shy back then and talked to almost no one except for a small group of close friends. You can't really blame technology for being introverted. It's a lifestyle choice. There's nothing wrong with it too, but you need to be real with yourself and realize you're actively making the choice to live that way. Nowadays there's an unlimited amount of chances to have micro-conversations. I see it (and do it) every day. I mean just today I went to the post office because I wanted to ship a box. It's a rare occurrence, but I saw some women standing on a separate line waiting for a passport. So I approached her and asked how long do passports last nowadays and we got to talking. Next thing you know, we're 1 minute into talking. It ended when they called her up, and that was it. Micro social interaction complete. I think blaming technology is just a cop out. If you went to a concert or something, I'm sure you'd have an opportunity to talk to dozens of people, but if you choose to stand there with your face buried in a phone and not talk to anyone then you can't blame your phone for loneliness. It's on you.
dnomad 8y ago
It doesn't make any sense to blame technology. Believe it or not there are plenty of other cultures that have access to the same technology but don't produce the extreme isolation that's common in the US. There's much more powerful forces at work here than online banking and ecommerce. The reality is that in the US and likely the UK traditional social networks and graces have disintegrated. It's a cultural issue which is mostly deliberate.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- sophistication 8y ago
  Indeed. Studies are only finding moderate correlations of loneliness and technology use. The variables with the largest regression coefficients predicting loneliness in this study [0], were poor neighborhood safety (.61), being single (.47, even with children .50). Being married most strongly protected against loneliness (−.42). I'd bet modern day loneliness is mostly caused by an interplay globalization/automation, stagnating growth and gender equality. All of them diminish the need for all kinds of social interactions in a big way. With improving welfare and increasing economic independence, women less likely need to find a reliable partner. Careerism forces them to marry late (or not at all) and makes men less appealing to them. Simultaneously, globalization and automation are destroying local economic opportunities, thereby lowering the social value of men even more. Deteriorating economic prospects lead to more crime, decreased neighborhood safety… [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2394670/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2394670/
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - sophistication 8y ago
    Exploring datasets from http://next.nomics.world http://next.nomics.world, I'm finding no link between gender equality and population density adjusted loneliness. But, removing outliers with excessive loneliness for their population densities (MT, CZ), I'm getting a moderate correlation (.4) between gender inequality index and male loneliness (male to female loneliness ratio among 24 to 34 year olds), so my model might explain male loneliness in particular. Haven't looked into the other factors I've conjectured.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
awucs 8y ago
In general very few things are getting worse in society. What is happening is that things are getting more unequal. When you lack power any excess will be made to serve someone else. It isn't like driving an hour to a busy supermarket was the height of social interaction. And social interaction has always been about your status in society. In the end it is a choice of who is going to give up what.
dawhizkid 8y ago
I find the occasional conversation with an Uber/Lyft driver something that many of my friends actively talk about. It does feel like a very unique social interaction that is distinct from (at least) my experience with taxis or any other form pf transit (i.e. more likely to sit in front, no barrier between rider and driver, more "casual" drivers)
JoshMnem 8y ago
I have similar worries about AI. Example: I never let computer programs reply for me by clicking pre-written responses to emails or messages. The designers of those products are making the mistake that the less you have to think about things the better, but I think that you have to use your brain or you will lose it. Even those simple routine tasks (like talking to a bank teller for three minutes) provide essential cognitive exercise. I don't refer to tech devices as "smart" any more -- they are "stupid" phones and "stupid" speakers, because that's what they are going to do to people in the long run. Programmers shouldn't try to make computers think for people or automate too much, because even smaller thinking tasks are essential.
- ImNotBeingADick 8y ago
  What's funny about this statement is I'm similar... but just recently I told the "pre script" to fuck off, then I realized I wrote exactly what was already pre-written. So, maybe it isn't making you dumber if you think about what you want to say and then pick the one that is closest or exact.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  Maybe there are other things around worth thinking? I can think of plenty ... that keeps my brain from becomming a lazy pile of grey cells.
  - JoshMnem 8y ago
    I think AI tends to be a race to the bottom due to human nature. If one isn't paying attention (and most people aren't), all youtube video recommendations lead to things like mindless fail-videos.
    - hutzlibu 8y ago
      Not really want to defend the algorithms here,(I also don't know what videos exactly show up as I am not so into it) but fail videos can be funny. Humor is a sign of intelligence. I would not declare it to be the bottom if it ... For it to work, your brain needs to recognize the activity and how it is supposed to work the proper way, so you can laugh about the wrong way done. And also learn about how to not do it like this. And simply relax and let go. Needed for the brain from time to time (but like I said, I also have not seen those videos in a while.. and I like hikes in wild nature for relaxation)
e40 8y ago
Good points, and I wonder if increasingly interactions with people will be because the automation is breaking down. Chase can't seem to get emails alerts for my son's CC working. Well, they work everywhere but gas stations. They have a category of alerts for gas stations, so there's just some bug somewhere. I've spent hours trying to get them to fix it, and the conversations are always unpleasant. This isn't the only interaction like this. I've had similar ones with other banks, Google, and other companies in the last last. All negative. All because automation is failing to do something important. That's a pretty terrible ending, if the only time we talk to humans will be to correct mistakes that software/hardware make. What have we wrought?
agumonkey 8y ago
I also wonder how much of recent 'tech' is due to not very articulated desire to do away with the burden of these social interactions. Something I did want to before[1] but maybe it would be better (and maybe we'll see it this way later) to just revamp the current structure and way we exchange to each other. To make a bold myopic summary, internet is kinda breaking us apart.
- andai 8y ago
  I used to always use the automatic check out at the supermarket, because I used to dread being forced to interact with a stranger (who often doesn't even want to be there, or interact with me!) I recently began doing a job that requires me to smile at and greet strangers all day long, and I found myself doing this automatically off the job as well. So now I find myself having pleasant interactions with supermarket staff, and looking forward to saying hello to them. The other day, after taking the automatic checkout out of habit, I realized that I had missed a great opportunity to connect with another human being, by choosing to use the machine instead. Then I thought, all of society seems to be headed in this direction, and it seems sad. On the other hand, making life more efficient in this way does free up the time we previously had to spend interacting with strangers, and we are now free to use that time to create deeper, more meaningful connections with friends.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    We agree on both the fact that society is aiming toward that (for various reasons), and that less fulfilling jobs don't .. fulfill the employees (cashier jobs). For the habit of social interactions, I have an anecdote: I rarely go out, I was invited to a friend 30th birthday, went there quite nervous, wasn't happy most of the time, bored etc etc. The next day I felt in a much improved mood. I believe that even when slightly negative, being surrounded with people, the random thoughts of everybody, etc has a very profound effect on your brain that reset or refill something that you can't when you're alone, even if you're doing 80% of things you like and enjoy uninterrupted. For time freed, at least you're using it for friend time :)
ddebernardy 8y ago
I agree with most of your points but part of this bit is incorrect: > Even if involuntary they 'trained' people's social skills and withered away at their acquired/innate social anxiety. Humans don't have a shred of innate social anxiety except perhaps in some odd pathological cases. Any parent who has dealt with a toddler that has yet to learn to talk will tell you that much. Toddlers who can't speak yet try very hard to interact with their parents and whoever else they meet. They've a fascinating ability to get themselves understood by their parents. Science will tell you that much too. Humans are basically hardwired to communicate. Intensely. So much so that if you gather a bunch of deaf kids together without supervision they invent their own sign language. [0] With that being said, kids do learn (or unlearn [1]) things at school. Including how to "socialize" (or not). [0]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040920071439.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040920071439.h... [1]: https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_cre...
- taurath 8y ago
  As someone with moderate/severe social anxiety, the idea of not having it seems just crazy to me.
  - kakarot 8y ago
    How much of your anxiety boils down to just not feeling confident about the appropriate actions to take or words to say in social situations? That's something that can be remedied for anyone with a little focused education.
    - lists 8y ago
      >How much of your anxiety boils down to just not feeling confident about the appropriate actions to take or words to say in social situations? You're enabling your own prescription by making the problem easier, viz. reducing the problem of anxiety to "not feeling confident about the appropriate actions to take", which, I might add, is also a redundant claim since its taking an effect of anxiety and elevating it to the cause.
closeparen 8y ago
As someone with a history of loneliness, I’ve have no shortage of businesslike interactions with strangers and acquantiances. The problem has always been a lack of close relationships with emotional weight. The effect of superficial interactions on my mood is neutral at best, and sometimes negative (as a reminder that my interactions stem from business necessity and institutional circumstances rather than interest and choice).
- andai 8y ago
  I recently realized that I am using (overusing) text-chat to compensate for a lack of real face to face interaction. As such I have deleted all my instant messaging accounts, in an attempt to force myself to face the loneliness and get out and meet people. (Also eliminated YouTube and surfing, for the same reason.) So far, I'm just really sad and lonely, but that's a good thing, because I was already feeling that way, I was just suppressing it with technology. I'm checking out communities in my area that meet up regularly. Most of my friends hang out very rarely, and I'd like to meet people and join organizations that meet up on a regular basis. Also have been working on my social skills and limiting beliefs: learning to make small talk, remember people's names, and recognizing unkind thoughts about myself, which create anxiety and prevent me from beginning or continuing conversations -- and choosing to think kinder, more constructive thoughts instead. The big "aha" moment for me was realizing, there was an age for me (about 9 years old) when I wasn't shy at all! Because I didn't have all these shitty beliefs about myself. So I've been exploring them, and letting them go.

yters 8y ago

This was commonly understood in medieval times. Aquinas says our mutual dependency forms social ties.

madeuptempacct 8y ago
This is kind out of scope, but ever since Deus Ex (the game), I have wondered what the big deal about Aquinas is. Never found his work all that interesting.
- mac01021 8y ago
  What about compared to that of all his contemporaries?
- amelius 8y ago
  Could you explain, for people who don't know that game?
  - Devils_Avocado 8y ago
    http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Aquinas http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Aquinas plus the wikipedia article on Aquinas. Basically, he developed what were regarded at the time as deductive "proofs" for the 'self-evident' truths of Catholicism, popularising some lateral thinking around the church's teachings which was a break from the contemporary norm of "this is true because the man in the funny hat who can read the big book says that's what the book says".
  - yters 8y ago
    Aristotle's writings were making their way into the European world and were causing a controversy over whether the truths of the scripture were consistent with truths of philosophy. Aquinas provided a comprehensive treatment of the question, demonstrating to the best of his ability the two sources of truth were consistent.
- simula67 8y ago
  I did not understand most of what he wrote. I thought he was being too obtuse. So I have been reading contemporary explanations of his ideas ( like those from Edward Feser ). I have a slightly better opinion of Acquinas today
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  I read a bit of him in college - what he pushed isn't all that special now nor something that stands out as a "holy crap" like predicting the existence of atoms but he had some influence with theodicy and other catholic foundations. While qualifying that a woman isn't at fault for being raped if she didn't enjoy it is horrifyiny misogynistic it was sadly progressive for his day. One amusing thing he had to argue against was that the Roman Empire fell due to abandoning the old gods and that if God was a real/superior power then they shouldn't have fallen.

0x4f3759df 8y ago

Someone once made the same point about fitness, you used to have to roll down your windows manually, but now its automatic. More and more muscle functions being eliminated by automation. Add them all up and it makes a difference.

zeroxfe 8y ago
Now that many new cars are coming with have high-def wide-angle rear view cameras, I don't really need my neck muscles anymore. At some point we'll "evolve" to rocks... rocks with wifi.
- muse900 8y ago
  as much as "rocks with wifi" made me giggle, it also made me sad cause its very true.
- 20after4 8y ago
  That's already a thing: https://hackaday.io/project/2058-wifi-rocks https://hackaday.io/project/2058-wifi-rocks
- phakding 8y ago
  I am thinking, evolve more like people in WALL-E. Blobs of flesh with no muscle definition or ability to use them.
- CM30 8y ago
  So basically like the people in WALL•E .
- dx87 8y ago
  That reminds me of a TED talk I saw where the speaker was saying that something he's noticed with a lot of academics and tech types is that they only care about flexing their mental muscles; their bodies are only useful for moving their brain from one place to another, so a lot of what they build is done to make it so they have to use their bodies less.

dghughes 8y ago

I agree with you 100% but I have an interesting personal anecdote, pretty much the opposite. When I was young I was very shy, painfully shy even into my early 20s. All social outings were family reunions or church. But I liked computers. So in the early 1990s I bought a computer and tried this thing called the Internet. By chance I discovered IRC. It was a world of strangers who interacted in real time. I could converse without facing or looking at a person. And at the time I used it for help when working on my PC so I'm a way it was forced interaction. I've often thought if it wasnt for IRC and other Internet chat applications my life would be quite different. It helped crack my shell of shyness. In a way you're right interacting with people is the key. But in my situation it was slightly different.

brador 8y ago
Or maybe you would have grown out of the shyness naturally over time as you found your place in the world and grew into an adult. Guess we’ll never know eh.
m0rphy99 8y ago
IRC back in the days was literally another world. It was something special. You could bond with other online users like family members even though the only thing you knew about them was their nickname. We have more advance technologies now but we would never be able to experience anything like IRC again. Slack and Discord servers today are not even close.
- bamboozled 8y ago
  I remmeber having the same deep interactions on ICQ!
- petra 8y ago
  >> Slack and Discord servers today are not even close. Is it true ? i remember reading that game communities are a very good place to meet new friends. Is it true ? why ? Also are there any other good places online ?
- WilliamEdward 8y ago

nickjj 8y ago

The cool thing is, you can still do all of those things today. There's really nothing stopping you from walking into a grocery store and talking to people if you want. You could also go outside for a walk to get some exercise. You'll meet plenty of people along the way (unless you live in the middle of no where).

dannyw 8y ago
That doesn’t address the point - which is that as a whole, micro-interactions are reducing. Just because you have the option, doesn’t mean people are doing it as much.
- nickjj 8y ago
  > That doesn’t address the point - which is that as a whole, micro-interactions are reducing. Just because you have the option, doesn’t mean people are doing it as much. It doesn't matter if people aren't doing it as much. It only matters what you're doing. If you goto the grocery store, or the bank, or a shop or anything like that, there's always going to be tellers handling customers. Your opportunities haven't gone away or have even been diminished.
  - TimTheTinker 8y ago
    > It doesn't matter if people aren't doing it as much. Yes it does. Threads of society are being cut, which is not only causing loneliness, but also emotional distancing, political polarization, demonizing folks in other camps, etc.
    - nickjj 8y ago
      > Yes it does. Threads of society are being cut, which is not only causing loneliness, but also emotional distancing, political polarization, demonizing folks in other camps, etc. The post I replied to mentioned specifically small talk with various clerks and tellers. Those clerks and tellers are still there today, just like they were 20 years ago. If you walk into any of those stores listed, you'll find human beings present to have micro social interactions with. I know because I was a teenager back in the mid/late 1990s (no cellphones back then) and I was super shy back then and talked to almost no one except for a small group of close friends. You can't really blame technology for being introverted. It's a lifestyle choice. There's nothing wrong with it too, but you need to be real with yourself and realize you're actively making the choice to live that way. Nowadays there's an unlimited amount of chances to have micro-conversations. I see it (and do it) every day. I mean just today I went to the post office because I wanted to ship a box. It's a rare occurrence, but I saw some women standing on a separate line waiting for a passport. So I approached her and asked how long do passports last nowadays and we got to talking. Next thing you know, we're 1 minute into talking. It ended when they called her up, and that was it. Micro social interaction complete. I think blaming technology is just a cop out. If you went to a concert or something, I'm sure you'd have an opportunity to talk to dozens of people, but if you choose to stand there with your face buried in a phone and not talk to anyone then you can't blame your phone for loneliness. It's on you.

dnomad 8y ago

It doesn't make any sense to blame technology. Believe it or not there are plenty of other cultures that have access to the same technology but don't produce the extreme isolation that's common in the US. There's much more powerful forces at work here than online banking and ecommerce. The reality is that in the US and likely the UK traditional social networks and graces have disintegrated. It's a cultural issue which is mostly deliberate.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sophistication 8y ago
Indeed. Studies are only finding moderate correlations of loneliness and technology use. The variables with the largest regression coefficients predicting loneliness in this study [0], were poor neighborhood safety (.61), being single (.47, even with children .50). Being married most strongly protected against loneliness (−.42). I'd bet modern day loneliness is mostly caused by an interplay globalization/automation, stagnating growth and gender equality. All of them diminish the need for all kinds of social interactions in a big way. With improving welfare and increasing economic independence, women less likely need to find a reliable partner. Careerism forces them to marry late (or not at all) and makes men less appealing to them. Simultaneously, globalization and automation are destroying local economic opportunities, thereby lowering the social value of men even more. Deteriorating economic prospects lead to more crime, decreased neighborhood safety… [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2394670/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2394670/
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- sophistication 8y ago
  Exploring datasets from http://next.nomics.world http://next.nomics.world, I'm finding no link between gender equality and population density adjusted loneliness. But, removing outliers with excessive loneliness for their population densities (MT, CZ), I'm getting a moderate correlation (.4) between gender inequality index and male loneliness (male to female loneliness ratio among 24 to 34 year olds), so my model might explain male loneliness in particular. Haven't looked into the other factors I've conjectured.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

awucs 8y ago

In general very few things are getting worse in society. What is happening is that things are getting more unequal. When you lack power any excess will be made to serve someone else. It isn't like driving an hour to a busy supermarket was the height of social interaction. And social interaction has always been about your status in society. In the end it is a choice of who is going to give up what.

dawhizkid 8y ago

I find the occasional conversation with an Uber/Lyft driver something that many of my friends actively talk about. It does feel like a very unique social interaction that is distinct from (at least) my experience with taxis or any other form pf transit (i.e. more likely to sit in front, no barrier between rider and driver, more "casual" drivers)

JoshMnem 8y ago

I have similar worries about AI. Example: I never let computer programs reply for me by clicking pre-written responses to emails or messages. The designers of those products are making the mistake that the less you have to think about things the better, but I think that you have to use your brain or you will lose it. Even those simple routine tasks (like talking to a bank teller for three minutes) provide essential cognitive exercise. I don't refer to tech devices as "smart" any more -- they are "stupid" phones and "stupid" speakers, because that's what they are going to do to people in the long run. Programmers shouldn't try to make computers think for people or automate too much, because even smaller thinking tasks are essential.

ImNotBeingADick 8y ago
What's funny about this statement is I'm similar... but just recently I told the "pre script" to fuck off, then I realized I wrote exactly what was already pre-written. So, maybe it isn't making you dumber if you think about what you want to say and then pick the one that is closest or exact.
hutzlibu 8y ago
Maybe there are other things around worth thinking? I can think of plenty ... that keeps my brain from becomming a lazy pile of grey cells.
- JoshMnem 8y ago
  I think AI tends to be a race to the bottom due to human nature. If one isn't paying attention (and most people aren't), all youtube video recommendations lead to things like mindless fail-videos.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    Not really want to defend the algorithms here,(I also don't know what videos exactly show up as I am not so into it) but fail videos can be funny. Humor is a sign of intelligence. I would not declare it to be the bottom if it ... For it to work, your brain needs to recognize the activity and how it is supposed to work the proper way, so you can laugh about the wrong way done. And also learn about how to not do it like this. And simply relax and let go. Needed for the brain from time to time (but like I said, I also have not seen those videos in a while.. and I like hikes in wild nature for relaxation)

e40 8y ago

Good points, and I wonder if increasingly interactions with people will be because the automation is breaking down. Chase can't seem to get emails alerts for my son's CC working. Well, they work everywhere but gas stations. They have a category of alerts for gas stations, so there's just some bug somewhere. I've spent hours trying to get them to fix it, and the conversations are always unpleasant. This isn't the only interaction like this. I've had similar ones with other banks, Google, and other companies in the last last. All negative. All because automation is failing to do something important. That's a pretty terrible ending, if the only time we talk to humans will be to correct mistakes that software/hardware make. What have we wrought?

agumonkey 8y ago

I also wonder how much of recent 'tech' is due to not very articulated desire to do away with the burden of these social interactions. Something I did want to before[1] but maybe it would be better (and maybe we'll see it this way later) to just revamp the current structure and way we exchange to each other. To make a bold myopic summary, internet is kinda breaking us apart.

andai 8y ago
I used to always use the automatic check out at the supermarket, because I used to dread being forced to interact with a stranger (who often doesn't even want to be there, or interact with me!) I recently began doing a job that requires me to smile at and greet strangers all day long, and I found myself doing this automatically off the job as well. So now I find myself having pleasant interactions with supermarket staff, and looking forward to saying hello to them. The other day, after taking the automatic checkout out of habit, I realized that I had missed a great opportunity to connect with another human being, by choosing to use the machine instead. Then I thought, all of society seems to be headed in this direction, and it seems sad. On the other hand, making life more efficient in this way does free up the time we previously had to spend interacting with strangers, and we are now free to use that time to create deeper, more meaningful connections with friends.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  We agree on both the fact that society is aiming toward that (for various reasons), and that less fulfilling jobs don't .. fulfill the employees (cashier jobs). For the habit of social interactions, I have an anecdote: I rarely go out, I was invited to a friend 30th birthday, went there quite nervous, wasn't happy most of the time, bored etc etc. The next day I felt in a much improved mood. I believe that even when slightly negative, being surrounded with people, the random thoughts of everybody, etc has a very profound effect on your brain that reset or refill something that you can't when you're alone, even if you're doing 80% of things you like and enjoy uninterrupted. For time freed, at least you're using it for friend time :)

ddebernardy 8y ago

I agree with most of your points but part of this bit is incorrect: > Even if involuntary they 'trained' people's social skills and withered away at their acquired/innate social anxiety. Humans don't have a shred of innate social anxiety except perhaps in some odd pathological cases. Any parent who has dealt with a toddler that has yet to learn to talk will tell you that much. Toddlers who can't speak yet try very hard to interact with their parents and whoever else they meet. They've a fascinating ability to get themselves understood by their parents. Science will tell you that much too. Humans are basically hardwired to communicate. Intensely. So much so that if you gather a bunch of deaf kids together without supervision they invent their own sign language. [0] With that being said, kids do learn (or unlearn [1]) things at school. Including how to "socialize" (or not). [0]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040920071439.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/09/040920071439.h... [1]: https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_cre...

taurath 8y ago
As someone with moderate/severe social anxiety, the idea of not having it seems just crazy to me.
- kakarot 8y ago
  How much of your anxiety boils down to just not feeling confident about the appropriate actions to take or words to say in social situations? That's something that can be remedied for anyone with a little focused education.
  - lists 8y ago
    >How much of your anxiety boils down to just not feeling confident about the appropriate actions to take or words to say in social situations? You're enabling your own prescription by making the problem easier, viz. reducing the problem of anxiety to "not feeling confident about the appropriate actions to take", which, I might add, is also a redundant claim since its taking an effect of anxiety and elevating it to the cause.

closeparen 8y ago

As someone with a history of loneliness, I’ve have no shortage of businesslike interactions with strangers and acquantiances. The problem has always been a lack of close relationships with emotional weight. The effect of superficial interactions on my mood is neutral at best, and sometimes negative (as a reminder that my interactions stem from business necessity and institutional circumstances rather than interest and choice).

andai 8y ago
I recently realized that I am using (overusing) text-chat to compensate for a lack of real face to face interaction. As such I have deleted all my instant messaging accounts, in an attempt to force myself to face the loneliness and get out and meet people. (Also eliminated YouTube and surfing, for the same reason.) So far, I'm just really sad and lonely, but that's a good thing, because I was already feeling that way, I was just suppressing it with technology. I'm checking out communities in my area that meet up regularly. Most of my friends hang out very rarely, and I'd like to meet people and join organizations that meet up on a regular basis. Also have been working on my social skills and limiting beliefs: learning to make small talk, remember people's names, and recognizing unkind thoughts about myself, which create anxiety and prevent me from beginning or continuing conversations -- and choosing to think kinder, more constructive thoughts instead. The big "aha" moment for me was realizing, there was an age for me (about 9 years old) when I wasn't shy at all! Because I didn't have all these shitty beliefs about myself. So I've been exploring them, and letting them go.