5 ms·

I've seen several studies that conclude that cows don't care what time they are milked, as long as it is done consistently. In many farms, the milking operation

by dsr_ 8y ago

I've seen several studies that conclude that cows don't care what time they are milked, as long as it is done consistently. In many farms, the milking operation is actually entirely automatic -- the cows walk up to the milking stations by themselves. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/nyregion/with-farm-robotics-the-cows-decide-when-its-milking-time.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/nyregion/with-farm-roboti...

close04 8y ago
Cows aside, the referendum was mostly to abolish the switch. But it wasn't decided yet which time to fall back to although it was part of the questionnaire. So basically you'll use the same time all year but it will probably be up to every country to decide whether or not it's summer time. Cows rejoice, they will be milked at a constant time which may or may not differ by 1h from present time. As a human I actually care about that 1h, it's not enough that we stop switching back and forth, I would personally like more daylight in the evening.
- OJFord 8y ago
  One could always vary working hours throughout the year.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    Yeah, most problems that switching time twice a year is intended to solve could be solved much better by explicitly scheduling things relative to the available sunlight, and the circadian rhythm would cope better with the gradual change. Want more sunlight in the evening? Find an employer who closes shop a fixed time before sunset. Don't want to go to work in the dark? Find a job where you get to start a fixed time after sunrise. Having both would lead to longer working days in summer and shorter ones in winter, but I think that would be acceptable in many cases. The obvious reason why such a scheme wasn't implemented is that the calculations required would be annoying to do manually, but by now that can be taken care of by technology.
    - johnchristopher 8y ago
      Where I work we must clock in 7h36m and a mandatory 30 minutes long lunchtime (and an additional 15 minutes break at 10:15) a day. You can come in between 8:00 and 9:00 and leave between 16:00 and 18:00. The whole thing is beaned by an electronic box with a finger scanner. Works pretty well. Tacit rule is overtime is used to extend an out-of-office lunch break but it gets converted into an obligatory off day when you hit the 8h bar. You are not supposed to make more than 1 day and a half per month this way.
      - irrational 8y ago
        Where do you work? There is no way I could work under those conditions. I roll into work when I want, leave when I want, spend 1+ hours working out in the company gym, etc.
        steve_musk 8y ago
        So do I but when you put it that way it makes me feel lucky to work in this industry...
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        The parent sounds a lot like UK Civil Service working conditions. Where do you work? Sounds great.
        oarsinsync 8y ago
        I used to feel that way about my jobs. Roll in when I like. Leave when I like. Invariably for me, this meant I’d start when I woke up (06:00) and work through the evening (past 21:00 was the usual minimum) My new job has a guarantee about starting no earlier than 08:00 and leaving no later than 19:00. It’s amazing.
        irrational 8y ago
        Eh, not me. I typically roll in somewhere between 9-10am. I work out in the gym between noon and 1:30. Then I head home around 5 or so. I almost never do any work in the evening.
  - close04 8y ago
    That wouldn't solve the problem. Studies (random picks [0] [1]) showed that on that day when you wake up earlier than your body is used to there is a visible increase in road accidents, deaths in surgeries, etc. People are more likely to make mistakes. It also poses lots of logistical issues when an hour "repeated" itself or "disappeared". The whole point is to not have to adjust your body's rhythm, and also to eliminate the planning glitches that occur around the moment of the switch, not just to save time on turning back a clock. [0] https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/daylight-savings-time-health-accidents-energy https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/d... [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/health/daylight-saving-time-health-effects/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/health/daylight-saving-ti...
- wott 8y ago
  There was no referendum, it was just an Internet consultation. As representative as a so-called poll on any newspaper website... Oh, and the EU server broke when I tried to validate my answer...
  - close04 8y ago
    You're right, not a referendum, I used the wrong term. But you're wrong to assume it's as representative as a newspaper poll. It might not be binding but this doesn't change the fact that it's representative of people's wishes. A newspaper poll is not representative simply because each publication has a very specific audience. This consultation did not (unless you count "having internet" as very specific).
    - pmoriarty 8y ago
      "this doesn't change the fact that it's representative of people's wishes" Is it? I wouldn't trust an electronic poll any more than I'd trust an electronic voting machine.
      - close04 8y ago
        I guess it's all about what's at stake. Does abolishing the switch feel like the kind of topic with such an importance to warrant hacking the system? Especially since it was a consultation. Every person I know in multiple countries is either very indifferent towards this decision or would prefer to abolish the clock change. It may be anecdotal but it supports the fact that in this day and age you really don't need to shift the hour anymore because there's no benefit to it. Plenty of disbenefits though. You don't need a hack to prove this is true and that people feel those disbenefits.
- stretchwithme 8y ago
  Some people like more daylight in the evening. When the work day begins and ends varies widely for a lot of people. And regardless of whether there is more daylight in the morning or evening because of a one time change, people will drift back to the times that work for them. Just as they would if we arbitrarily moved the clock ahead by 6 hours.
- dghughes 8y ago
  But it depends on your location, your latitude. The farther south you go towards the equator the less of an effect DST has on daily life.
simias 8y ago
IIRC the consistency is the issue: when DST kicks in they have to shift the milking time by an hour which apparently (based on a vague memory from a news article I read years ago) breaks the routine for the cows and can create issues. The obvious solution would be not to shift the milking time with DST but then it means that the truck picking up the milk for the factory will arrive one hour later which creates issues with conserving the milk properly, so you basically have the problem at one point or an other.
- reitanqild 8y ago
  > but then it means that the truck picking up the milk for the factory will arrive one hour later which creates issues with conserving the milk properly, so you basically have the problem at one point or an other. Don't know where this comes from..! The milk is (was at least when I grew up) supposed to ve cooled down to 4 degrees (Celcius, that is) ASAP. As long as that is done and you follow the recommendations for washing and disinfecting everything you should be fine even with half a day delay or more Source: grew up on a dairy farm, went to farming school.
  - kungtotte 8y ago
    Yeah I was going to say. You know how easy it is to hit a one hour delay when driving a truck? If milk was ruined over an hour here or there then dairy farming would be incredibly fragile!
  - buckminster 8y ago
    > Don't know where this comes from..! I've heard this before. I'm pretty sure it dates back to the days before refrigeration when the milk was transported from cow to consumer every morning.
  - dsr_ 8y ago
    Yup. Hence my former coworker's business, Promethean (coolectrica.com), which makes milk chillers designed for markets where there is grid power, but it's intermittent and you can't depend on it being up when you need it.
- 8y ago
LeftTurnSignal 8y ago
Growing up the cows on our farm were quite a bit moodier when DST arrived. They would calm down after one or two weeks until the next DST happened and the cycle starts again. Not enough of a reason to warrant saving DST, but enough that there was definitely a difference in most of them.
- gumby 8y ago
  > ... the cows ... were quite a bit moodier ... I see what you did there. Nice!

by dsr_ 8y ago

close04 8y ago

Cows aside, the referendum was mostly to abolish the switch. But it wasn't decided yet which time to fall back to although it was part of the questionnaire. So basically you'll use the same time all year but it will probably be up to every country to decide whether or not it's summer time. Cows rejoice, they will be milked at a constant time which may or may not differ by 1h from present time. As a human I actually care about that 1h, it's not enough that we stop switching back and forth, I would personally like more daylight in the evening.

OJFord 8y ago
One could always vary working hours throughout the year.
- yorwba 8y ago
  Yeah, most problems that switching time twice a year is intended to solve could be solved much better by explicitly scheduling things relative to the available sunlight, and the circadian rhythm would cope better with the gradual change. Want more sunlight in the evening? Find an employer who closes shop a fixed time before sunset. Don't want to go to work in the dark? Find a job where you get to start a fixed time after sunrise. Having both would lead to longer working days in summer and shorter ones in winter, but I think that would be acceptable in many cases. The obvious reason why such a scheme wasn't implemented is that the calculations required would be annoying to do manually, but by now that can be taken care of by technology.
  - johnchristopher 8y ago
    Where I work we must clock in 7h36m and a mandatory 30 minutes long lunchtime (and an additional 15 minutes break at 10:15) a day. You can come in between 8:00 and 9:00 and leave between 16:00 and 18:00. The whole thing is beaned by an electronic box with a finger scanner. Works pretty well. Tacit rule is overtime is used to extend an out-of-office lunch break but it gets converted into an obligatory off day when you hit the 8h bar. You are not supposed to make more than 1 day and a half per month this way.
    - irrational 8y ago
      Where do you work? There is no way I could work under those conditions. I roll into work when I want, leave when I want, spend 1+ hours working out in the company gym, etc.
      - steve_musk 8y ago
        So do I but when you put it that way it makes me feel lucky to work in this industry...
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        The parent sounds a lot like UK Civil Service working conditions. Where do you work? Sounds great.
      - oarsinsync 8y ago
        I used to feel that way about my jobs. Roll in when I like. Leave when I like. Invariably for me, this meant I’d start when I woke up (06:00) and work through the evening (past 21:00 was the usual minimum) My new job has a guarantee about starting no earlier than 08:00 and leaving no later than 19:00. It’s amazing.
        irrational 8y ago
        Eh, not me. I typically roll in somewhere between 9-10am. I work out in the gym between noon and 1:30. Then I head home around 5 or so. I almost never do any work in the evening.
- close04 8y ago
  That wouldn't solve the problem. Studies (random picks [0] [1]) showed that on that day when you wake up earlier than your body is used to there is a visible increase in road accidents, deaths in surgeries, etc. People are more likely to make mistakes. It also poses lots of logistical issues when an hour "repeated" itself or "disappeared". The whole point is to not have to adjust your body's rhythm, and also to eliminate the planning glitches that occur around the moment of the switch, not just to save time on turning back a clock. [0] https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/daylight-savings-time-health-accidents-energy https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/d... [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/health/daylight-saving-time-health-effects/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/health/daylight-saving-ti...
wott 8y ago
There was no referendum, it was just an Internet consultation. As representative as a so-called poll on any newspaper website... Oh, and the EU server broke when I tried to validate my answer...
- close04 8y ago
  You're right, not a referendum, I used the wrong term. But you're wrong to assume it's as representative as a newspaper poll. It might not be binding but this doesn't change the fact that it's representative of people's wishes. A newspaper poll is not representative simply because each publication has a very specific audience. This consultation did not (unless you count "having internet" as very specific).
  - pmoriarty 8y ago
    "this doesn't change the fact that it's representative of people's wishes" Is it? I wouldn't trust an electronic poll any more than I'd trust an electronic voting machine.
    - close04 8y ago
      I guess it's all about what's at stake. Does abolishing the switch feel like the kind of topic with such an importance to warrant hacking the system? Especially since it was a consultation. Every person I know in multiple countries is either very indifferent towards this decision or would prefer to abolish the clock change. It may be anecdotal but it supports the fact that in this day and age you really don't need to shift the hour anymore because there's no benefit to it. Plenty of disbenefits though. You don't need a hack to prove this is true and that people feel those disbenefits.
stretchwithme 8y ago
Some people like more daylight in the evening. When the work day begins and ends varies widely for a lot of people. And regardless of whether there is more daylight in the morning or evening because of a one time change, people will drift back to the times that work for them. Just as they would if we arbitrarily moved the clock ahead by 6 hours.
dghughes 8y ago
But it depends on your location, your latitude. The farther south you go towards the equator the less of an effect DST has on daily life.

simias 8y ago

IIRC the consistency is the issue: when DST kicks in they have to shift the milking time by an hour which apparently (based on a vague memory from a news article I read years ago) breaks the routine for the cows and can create issues. The obvious solution would be not to shift the milking time with DST but then it means that the truck picking up the milk for the factory will arrive one hour later which creates issues with conserving the milk properly, so you basically have the problem at one point or an other.

reitanqild 8y ago
> but then it means that the truck picking up the milk for the factory will arrive one hour later which creates issues with conserving the milk properly, so you basically have the problem at one point or an other. Don't know where this comes from..! The milk is (was at least when I grew up) supposed to ve cooled down to 4 degrees (Celcius, that is) ASAP. As long as that is done and you follow the recommendations for washing and disinfecting everything you should be fine even with half a day delay or more Source: grew up on a dairy farm, went to farming school.
- kungtotte 8y ago
  Yeah I was going to say. You know how easy it is to hit a one hour delay when driving a truck? If milk was ruined over an hour here or there then dairy farming would be incredibly fragile!
- buckminster 8y ago
  > Don't know where this comes from..! I've heard this before. I'm pretty sure it dates back to the days before refrigeration when the milk was transported from cow to consumer every morning.
- dsr_ 8y ago
  Yup. Hence my former coworker's business, Promethean (coolectrica.com), which makes milk chillers designed for markets where there is grid power, but it's intermittent and you can't depend on it being up when you need it.
8y ago

LeftTurnSignal 8y ago

Growing up the cows on our farm were quite a bit moodier when DST arrived. They would calm down after one or two weeks until the next DST happened and the cycle starts again. Not enough of a reason to warrant saving DST, but enough that there was definitely a difference in most of them.

gumby 8y ago
> ... the cows ... were quite a bit moodier ... I see what you did there. Nice!