9 ms·

We've been seeing this since the 60s. DC-10 promised it. L-1011 promised it (https://www.psa-history.org/about_psa/aircraft/lockheed-l-1011/the-lower-lounge-o

by arnon 8y ago

We've been seeing this since the 60s. DC-10 promised it. L-1011 promised it (https://www.psa-history.org/about_psa/aircraft/lockheed-l-1011/the-lower-lounge-of-the-l-1011-lockheed-promotional-picture/ https://www.psa-history.org/about_psa/aircraft/lockheed-l-10...). 747 promised it (https://vinepair.com/wine-blog/the-glamorous-airline-lounges-in-the-sky-from-the-1970s/ https://vinepair.com/wine-blog/the-glamorous-airline-lounges...). A380 promised it. It's not going to happen, because airlines want to cram as many seats as possible, even in business class.

jbob2000 8y ago
It's not airlines that want to do this, it's the customers who want to fly around the world for as cheap as possible. Nobody values the time they spend travelling, they just want it to be as quick and cheap as possible. It'd cost you $10,000+ to take a 20 hour flight with a gym and bunk beds. Fuck that, I can stay in Aruba at a 5 star resort for a week at that price.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  At a certain level of income/wealth, the time spent traveling is valued higher than the dollar amount. That’s why premium airlines include first class suites with beds. If those offerings weren’t profitable they wouldn’t exist.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    The problem is that the market segments such that these travelers are no longer served by commercial aviation. If you are the sort of person whose time is worth $10K/hour, you fly private. You get your bed, and gym, and first-class suite and attendants who wait on your every move, and you also don't have to go through security or wait in the terminal or deal with other passengers. The lie-flat business class seats aren't actually for those sorts of people, they are for ordinary corporate mid-level employees who fly for business. I have some Googler friends in Australia who will regularly take the bed-seats on the Sydney => SFO run. The company pays for it - when you're going to be paying the employee $10K anyway for the two weeks they're away, and they're generating well over that in value by having the next 3 months of work synced up with what the home office is doing, why would you not?
    - sseveran 8y ago
      Its actually not quite that simple for long distance flying. Most private jets are not G650ERs which have a good long range and can fly a route that an airline might use a 777 or A350 for. The G650 sleeps 10 so you probably wouldn't want more than that for a long hall flight. And I mean if someone was going to let me fly a 650 for the same price as international business I would do it. Figure operating a long range jet runs about $5K per hour exclusive of actually buying and financing the plane. So the flight I am going to take in a couple of months would be roughly $65000 in variable costs. Even at making 10K per hour ($20M per year) its going to get quite pricey to fly a long range private jet. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/16/hourly-operating-costs-of-45-jets-compared https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/1...
  - QuercusMax 8y ago
    Yes, at those levels it's basically a tossup between private jet and premium first class.
    - lisper 8y ago
      Actually, compared to a private jet, commercial first class is ridiculously cheap, like an order of magnitude less.
      - bradknowles 8y ago
        Which is why they avoid first class like the plague. Who would want to have to put up with all those plebes?
        isostatic 8y ago
        Indeed. The ones who complain about passengers ruining their first class flight are funny - they don't realise they're travelling on public transport.
        mercutio2 8y ago
        That’s the stereotype, but in many (most?) cases the actual reason is about time, not brushing shoulders with the merely megarich. Very rich people spend money to avoid ever waiting for anything or anyone who isn’t a close acquaintance or high status person. This is what private planes optimize for.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Depends. If that nice seat takes up 10x the space of an ecomony seat, it better cost at least 10x as much. Otherwise, the economy class cabin would be subsidizing the first class cabin. As prices ebb and flow, surely this does sometimes happen.
    - fyfy18 8y ago
      A few years ago I was listening to an interview with (I believe) Tim Clark, president of Emirates, and he said that just by filling up business class - which happens most of the time - alone, their A380 flights from DXB to LHR are turning a profit. So the other 400 passengers in economy are a bonus.
      - sseveran 8y ago
        Wendover did a great video on just this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc
      - sandworm101 8y ago
        But that doesnt mean they arent paying more per foot. Profitability and the ratio between classes are different concepts.
      - GFischer 8y ago
        Yes, business class is basically what pays for the trip. It's the business travelers that are subsidizing the economy ones, not the other way round. So it doesn't make sense to make economy more comfortable, actually the opposite.
        awucs 8y ago
        Usually one tends to put it the other way, that economy pays for the trip and business class delivers the profit. Which makes sense because that is how e.g. a low cost carrier operates. While business class only flights are almost non-existent even though that in theory would make more money.
- hotpotjunkie 8y ago
  $10k would barely get you a business class seat these days for long haul flights.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Depends. I’ve gotten business for as cheap as $2k one way transpacific. Got lucky once and scored ~$900 between Beijing and Bali round trip. Google flights helps a lot if you have flexibility.
    - tluyben2 8y ago
      Flights in Asia are generally far cheaper and, in my experience, more comfortable. Business class on longer flights in Asia is much cheaper than the same distance in other places I visit. But usually economy has less seats / more space too, at least in the airlines I fly with.
  - sseveran 8y ago
    I guess it depends on where you fly. The routes I fly to Europe and South America are typically 5-7K although I have seen less. It also depends on what type of business class seat you want. If you are fine with the older style reclining business class seat you cloud fly Copa for $3500 or even less sometimes. If you want a modern lie-flat product like Delta One or United Polaris than you are going to pay a bit more. I typically can book in advance though.
  - csomar 8y ago
    I think you mean first. Business class would run at 1.5-3k. At least for Emirates; and that's pretty long flights.
- jmulho 8y ago
  The problem is that commercial air travel is fundamentally unpleasant. Pack, drive to the airport, park, carry heavy things long distances, wait in long lines, take off your shoes and belt, be inspected infected and detected, stop start stop start, wait for your fellow travelers to cram everything they could carry into overhead bins, get up to let strangers in, bang elbows, endure g-forces, thoughts of death, pressure, noise... unending noise, temperature swings, turbulence, miniature port-o-potties that smell the same as normal sized, bad food, no food, four ounce sodas with huge ice cubes, sky mall (thank God for sky mall), now do that all in reverse, add ear popping, wait for your bag to crash onto a conveyor, wait in more lines, drive in more traffic, feel bad for two days... If the airlines could remove three or four of those problems for say twice or four times the money, it would still be a miserable day. Most people would rather just bang elbows and get it over with for as little money as possible.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    I guess it's different as I'm not in the USA, but I generally don't mind flying for <4 hour flights. Security for me is always a breeze, no need to remove shoes here and I just don't wear a belt. If I don't have checked luggage the process is even nicer. Flying between Australia and New Zealand is about as easy as it gets. I can check in online, and security takes all of 15 minutes, if that. 4 hours on a plane isn't too bad and usually I'm in a 3 set row with only 1 other person. It's nice to have a few hours to unplug from everything and watch a movie or play Stellaris. Customs/immigration on the way in (to both Australia and New Zealand) is so easy, the whole system is electronic, so the only human I interact with is the customs officer who confirms I have no prohibited items. If it's a night flight, anything up to 8 hours is fine for me. I've never had problems sleeping on a plane, or anywhere for that matter.
- chrissnell 8y ago
  Not true at all. Plenty of people do it both. I flew international first class a few weeks ago and the cabin was 100% full. There were a couple of guys that looked like they might have paid for the upgrade with miles but most people looked like they probably paid cash, especially the ones that immediately went to sleep in their beds and never so much as had a glass of champagne.
  - csomar 8y ago
    But does it scale? They only have a few first cabins. So maybe there is room for more but only a couple more. Not the whole plane.
  - nemo44x 8y ago
    As someone who used to fly a lot for work and get free upgrades or use points for them, the amazing mystique of it all wears off after awhile. Even with points you'll find me in my bed right after take off. The drinks and food are fine and all but waking up in another timezone 100% fresh is priceless and adds 2 days to your trip minimum.
lisper 8y ago
> A380 promised it. And they delivered it. First class on any of these planes is quite comfy even for extended periods of time. But it ain't cheap. The problem is not that the service doesn't or can't exist. The problem is that it costs more than most people can afford. It's an economic problem, not a technical one.
- chrissnell 8y ago
  I flew First Class on a four-class A380 for a round-trip that I took a few weeks ago. It was amazing, everything that I hoped it would be and then some. I ate a fantastic meal, drank top-shelf whiskey and champagne, and then crashed out on my seat, which the FA made into a bed (duvet, comforter, and all) while I changed into the provided pajamas in the lavatory. I got a solid four hours of sleep on my 8-hour flight and then woke up for a proper breakfast. It was expensive but I really do feel that I got my money's worth, especially considering the international first class lounges that I used before the flight, which included a fine dining five-course meal and private bathrooms with showers. Some pics: https://instagram.com/p/BmCjI2yAdPA/ https://instagram.com/p/BmCjI2yAdPA/ https://instagram.com/p/BmCidHZgztX/ https://instagram.com/p/BmCidHZgztX/ https://instagram.com/p/BmDpgtPAgIp/ https://instagram.com/p/BmDpgtPAgIp/
  - zachberger 8y ago
    Even business class is outstanding on the A380.
    - peteretep 8y ago
      On some planes, and not others. There's huge seat variation from airline to airline.
      - aikinai 8y ago
        Definitely. JAL's business class is a cubicle with a full bed. https://www.jal.co.jp/en/inter/service/business/seat/skysuite.html https://www.jal.co.jp/en/inter/service/business/seat/skysuit...
jonknee 8y ago
> It's not going to happen, because airlines want to cram as many seats as possible, even in business class. Obviously this seems far fetched, but Airbus seems to be pushing the idea of putting the bunks underneath where cargo would normally go. Not sure the FAA approval requirements to have people down there, but this wouldn't take up any existing seating: > Airbus in April gave a glimpse of the future when it unveiled at a Hamburg exhibition the sleeping modules that could slot into an aircraft’s cargo compartments. The berths will initially be available on the A330 from 2020, and potentially on the A350, the company said.
- jedberg 8y ago
  If the FAA allows it, then why would they put bunks when they can put more seats?
  - kbenson 8y ago
    More seats means more people, which means more weight, and possibly more requirements for emergency escape given that number of people. Bunks mean just shifting existing people/weight to different areas, and even then only temporarily. During an emergency if there's time they could try to shift some number of people back to seats (some emergencies play out over many minutes, not just seconds). All speculation, of course.
  - jonknee 8y ago
    I would assume it would not be allowed for takeoff/landing (no emergency exits) which would mean no ticketed seats.
Kagerjay 8y ago
Emirates has actual transformable beds/chairs last time I checked, for the higher tier packages. link and timestamp to casey neistats video https://youtu.be/a7NJ6Gek9v4?t=424 https://youtu.be/a7NJ6Gek9v4?t=424 Flight attendants on 2 floor planes have beds in the cockpit
- w-ll 8y ago
  That's the highest tier, that's like a $20k ticket if i'm not mistaken.
rdl 8y ago
I'm happy enough to be indifferent on good-airline (JL, NH, SQ, CX, QR, EY, EK, etc.) in newer lie-flat all-aisle business class, and usually happier-than-on-ground in F (esp on something like JL). Premium Economy or economy-with-empty-seats-next-to-me is fine as long as I have good audiobooks and headphones. I recently did SFO-HND on JL 1 in F (Alaska miles redemption for SFO-HND F, KIX-BKK in C, for 75k miles or about $1250). It was better food than all but the best restaurants, great service, decent Internet, and a comfortable, large seat which turned into a very nice bed. Doing that for 20-40h would be no problem at all.
nemo44x 8y ago
Airlines don't care one way or another. It's customers that want to cram as many seats as possible as that makes their cost cheaper. If there was a market for comfortable travel that was reasonably more expensive than what we have today it would exist. I know this because it used to be like this. As soon as "sort by price" became the main way people book travel it killed this option. People want the cheapest flight possible and airlines are serving what the public has demanded.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

by arnon 8y ago

jbob2000 8y ago

It's not airlines that want to do this, it's the customers who want to fly around the world for as cheap as possible. Nobody values the time they spend travelling, they just want it to be as quick and cheap as possible. It'd cost you $10,000+ to take a 20 hour flight with a gym and bunk beds. Fuck that, I can stay in Aruba at a 5 star resort for a week at that price.

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
At a certain level of income/wealth, the time spent traveling is valued higher than the dollar amount. That’s why premium airlines include first class suites with beds. If those offerings weren’t profitable they wouldn’t exist.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  The problem is that the market segments such that these travelers are no longer served by commercial aviation. If you are the sort of person whose time is worth $10K/hour, you fly private. You get your bed, and gym, and first-class suite and attendants who wait on your every move, and you also don't have to go through security or wait in the terminal or deal with other passengers. The lie-flat business class seats aren't actually for those sorts of people, they are for ordinary corporate mid-level employees who fly for business. I have some Googler friends in Australia who will regularly take the bed-seats on the Sydney => SFO run. The company pays for it - when you're going to be paying the employee $10K anyway for the two weeks they're away, and they're generating well over that in value by having the next 3 months of work synced up with what the home office is doing, why would you not?
  - sseveran 8y ago
    Its actually not quite that simple for long distance flying. Most private jets are not G650ERs which have a good long range and can fly a route that an airline might use a 777 or A350 for. The G650 sleeps 10 so you probably wouldn't want more than that for a long hall flight. And I mean if someone was going to let me fly a 650 for the same price as international business I would do it. Figure operating a long range jet runs about $5K per hour exclusive of actually buying and financing the plane. So the flight I am going to take in a couple of months would be roughly $65000 in variable costs. Even at making 10K per hour ($20M per year) its going to get quite pricey to fly a long range private jet. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/16/hourly-operating-costs-of-45-jets-compared https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/1...
- QuercusMax 8y ago
  Yes, at those levels it's basically a tossup between private jet and premium first class.
  - lisper 8y ago
    Actually, compared to a private jet, commercial first class is ridiculously cheap, like an order of magnitude less.
    - bradknowles 8y ago
      Which is why they avoid first class like the plague. Who would want to have to put up with all those plebes?
      - isostatic 8y ago
        Indeed. The ones who complain about passengers ruining their first class flight are funny - they don't realise they're travelling on public transport.
      - mercutio2 8y ago
        That’s the stereotype, but in many (most?) cases the actual reason is about time, not brushing shoulders with the merely megarich. Very rich people spend money to avoid ever waiting for anything or anyone who isn’t a close acquaintance or high status person. This is what private planes optimize for.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Depends. If that nice seat takes up 10x the space of an ecomony seat, it better cost at least 10x as much. Otherwise, the economy class cabin would be subsidizing the first class cabin. As prices ebb and flow, surely this does sometimes happen.
  - fyfy18 8y ago
    A few years ago I was listening to an interview with (I believe) Tim Clark, president of Emirates, and he said that just by filling up business class - which happens most of the time - alone, their A380 flights from DXB to LHR are turning a profit. So the other 400 passengers in economy are a bonus.
    - sseveran 8y ago
      Wendover did a great video on just this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      But that doesnt mean they arent paying more per foot. Profitability and the ratio between classes are different concepts.
    - GFischer 8y ago
      Yes, business class is basically what pays for the trip. It's the business travelers that are subsidizing the economy ones, not the other way round. So it doesn't make sense to make economy more comfortable, actually the opposite.
      - awucs 8y ago
        Usually one tends to put it the other way, that economy pays for the trip and business class delivers the profit. Which makes sense because that is how e.g. a low cost carrier operates. While business class only flights are almost non-existent even though that in theory would make more money.
hotpotjunkie 8y ago
$10k would barely get you a business class seat these days for long haul flights.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Depends. I’ve gotten business for as cheap as $2k one way transpacific. Got lucky once and scored ~$900 between Beijing and Bali round trip. Google flights helps a lot if you have flexibility.
  - tluyben2 8y ago
    Flights in Asia are generally far cheaper and, in my experience, more comfortable. Business class on longer flights in Asia is much cheaper than the same distance in other places I visit. But usually economy has less seats / more space too, at least in the airlines I fly with.
- sseveran 8y ago
  I guess it depends on where you fly. The routes I fly to Europe and South America are typically 5-7K although I have seen less. It also depends on what type of business class seat you want. If you are fine with the older style reclining business class seat you cloud fly Copa for $3500 or even less sometimes. If you want a modern lie-flat product like Delta One or United Polaris than you are going to pay a bit more. I typically can book in advance though.
- csomar 8y ago
  I think you mean first. Business class would run at 1.5-3k. At least for Emirates; and that's pretty long flights.
jmulho 8y ago
The problem is that commercial air travel is fundamentally unpleasant. Pack, drive to the airport, park, carry heavy things long distances, wait in long lines, take off your shoes and belt, be inspected infected and detected, stop start stop start, wait for your fellow travelers to cram everything they could carry into overhead bins, get up to let strangers in, bang elbows, endure g-forces, thoughts of death, pressure, noise... unending noise, temperature swings, turbulence, miniature port-o-potties that smell the same as normal sized, bad food, no food, four ounce sodas with huge ice cubes, sky mall (thank God for sky mall), now do that all in reverse, add ear popping, wait for your bag to crash onto a conveyor, wait in more lines, drive in more traffic, feel bad for two days... If the airlines could remove three or four of those problems for say twice or four times the money, it would still be a miserable day. Most people would rather just bang elbows and get it over with for as little money as possible.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  I guess it's different as I'm not in the USA, but I generally don't mind flying for <4 hour flights. Security for me is always a breeze, no need to remove shoes here and I just don't wear a belt. If I don't have checked luggage the process is even nicer. Flying between Australia and New Zealand is about as easy as it gets. I can check in online, and security takes all of 15 minutes, if that. 4 hours on a plane isn't too bad and usually I'm in a 3 set row with only 1 other person. It's nice to have a few hours to unplug from everything and watch a movie or play Stellaris. Customs/immigration on the way in (to both Australia and New Zealand) is so easy, the whole system is electronic, so the only human I interact with is the customs officer who confirms I have no prohibited items. If it's a night flight, anything up to 8 hours is fine for me. I've never had problems sleeping on a plane, or anywhere for that matter.
chrissnell 8y ago
Not true at all. Plenty of people do it both. I flew international first class a few weeks ago and the cabin was 100% full. There were a couple of guys that looked like they might have paid for the upgrade with miles but most people looked like they probably paid cash, especially the ones that immediately went to sleep in their beds and never so much as had a glass of champagne.
- csomar 8y ago
  But does it scale? They only have a few first cabins. So maybe there is room for more but only a couple more. Not the whole plane.
- nemo44x 8y ago
  As someone who used to fly a lot for work and get free upgrades or use points for them, the amazing mystique of it all wears off after awhile. Even with points you'll find me in my bed right after take off. The drinks and food are fine and all but waking up in another timezone 100% fresh is priceless and adds 2 days to your trip minimum.

lisper 8y ago

> A380 promised it. And they delivered it. First class on any of these planes is quite comfy even for extended periods of time. But it ain't cheap. The problem is not that the service doesn't or can't exist. The problem is that it costs more than most people can afford. It's an economic problem, not a technical one.

chrissnell 8y ago
I flew First Class on a four-class A380 for a round-trip that I took a few weeks ago. It was amazing, everything that I hoped it would be and then some. I ate a fantastic meal, drank top-shelf whiskey and champagne, and then crashed out on my seat, which the FA made into a bed (duvet, comforter, and all) while I changed into the provided pajamas in the lavatory. I got a solid four hours of sleep on my 8-hour flight and then woke up for a proper breakfast. It was expensive but I really do feel that I got my money's worth, especially considering the international first class lounges that I used before the flight, which included a fine dining five-course meal and private bathrooms with showers. Some pics: https://instagram.com/p/BmCjI2yAdPA/ https://instagram.com/p/BmCjI2yAdPA/ https://instagram.com/p/BmCidHZgztX/ https://instagram.com/p/BmCidHZgztX/ https://instagram.com/p/BmDpgtPAgIp/ https://instagram.com/p/BmDpgtPAgIp/
- zachberger 8y ago
  Even business class is outstanding on the A380.
  - peteretep 8y ago
    On some planes, and not others. There's huge seat variation from airline to airline.
    - aikinai 8y ago
      Definitely. JAL's business class is a cubicle with a full bed. https://www.jal.co.jp/en/inter/service/business/seat/skysuite.html https://www.jal.co.jp/en/inter/service/business/seat/skysuit...

jonknee 8y ago

> It's not going to happen, because airlines want to cram as many seats as possible, even in business class. Obviously this seems far fetched, but Airbus seems to be pushing the idea of putting the bunks underneath where cargo would normally go. Not sure the FAA approval requirements to have people down there, but this wouldn't take up any existing seating: > Airbus in April gave a glimpse of the future when it unveiled at a Hamburg exhibition the sleeping modules that could slot into an aircraft’s cargo compartments. The berths will initially be available on the A330 from 2020, and potentially on the A350, the company said.

jedberg 8y ago
If the FAA allows it, then why would they put bunks when they can put more seats?
- kbenson 8y ago
  More seats means more people, which means more weight, and possibly more requirements for emergency escape given that number of people. Bunks mean just shifting existing people/weight to different areas, and even then only temporarily. During an emergency if there's time they could try to shift some number of people back to seats (some emergencies play out over many minutes, not just seconds). All speculation, of course.
- jonknee 8y ago
  I would assume it would not be allowed for takeoff/landing (no emergency exits) which would mean no ticketed seats.

Kagerjay 8y ago

Emirates has actual transformable beds/chairs last time I checked, for the higher tier packages. link and timestamp to casey neistats video https://youtu.be/a7NJ6Gek9v4?t=424 https://youtu.be/a7NJ6Gek9v4?t=424 Flight attendants on 2 floor planes have beds in the cockpit

w-ll 8y ago
That's the highest tier, that's like a $20k ticket if i'm not mistaken.

rdl 8y ago

I'm happy enough to be indifferent on good-airline (JL, NH, SQ, CX, QR, EY, EK, etc.) in newer lie-flat all-aisle business class, and usually happier-than-on-ground in F (esp on something like JL). Premium Economy or economy-with-empty-seats-next-to-me is fine as long as I have good audiobooks and headphones. I recently did SFO-HND on JL 1 in F (Alaska miles redemption for SFO-HND F, KIX-BKK in C, for 75k miles or about $1250). It was better food than all but the best restaurants, great service, decent Internet, and a comfortable, large seat which turned into a very nice bed. Doing that for 20-40h would be no problem at all.

nemo44x 8y ago

Airlines don't care one way or another. It's customers that want to cram as many seats as possible as that makes their cost cheaper. If there was a market for comfortable travel that was reasonably more expensive than what we have today it would exist. I know this because it used to be like this. As soon as "sort by price" became the main way people book travel it killed this option. People want the cheapest flight possible and airlines are serving what the public has demanded.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]