7 ms·

Goodbye VSCode, Hello Emacs Again

125 points by tangue 8y ago

keymone 8y ago
every now and then i change things up and explore the field. textmate -> sublime -> vim -> emacs -> idea -> (now) vscode. i really want to like emacs, i think it's probably the most productive environment if you sink a thousand hours into fiddling with your configs and get things just right for yourself but ultimately it's a breath of fresh air when most stuff just works out of the box and your config is just bunch of checkboxes and simple text fields (or json). i've tried spacemacs and i've tried writing my own config - none of it is even close to how quickly you can get comfortable and productive in atom/vscode, even if the productivity ceiling is (maybe) lower than that of emacs. i'm in constant cognitive dissonance about electron apps. atom and vscode are just incredibly good projects.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- olau 8y ago
  Maybe I'm the outlier, but what keeps me on Emacs works out of the box without any configuration: the basic editing experience. I do have a few extra things turned on, e.g. global-subword-mode so that I can traverse CamelCase as if it consisted of two words, and a few packages specific to the languages I'm programming in. But that's really secondary.
- snlnspc 8y ago
  I'm not much of a dev and historically just did things in n++ or vim. I gave a few IDEs a shot as I delved further into development, but wound up sticking with vim and eventually moved to spacemacs. the initial task of setting emacs up seems to be one of the most common complaints, but I don't feel I really went through that with spacemacs. other than adding a layer now and then, I think I've made less than 20 minutes of changes to my config total, most of which was looking into a bit of lisp. perhaps I should've tried a vim plugin for other ides, but I can't see myself switching to something like vscode or a jetbrains ide despite agreeing that they're good.
baldfat 8y ago
I still am loving the VSCode with the VIM extension. I write in Racket, R, Python, JS, and Haxe. I still find Code to be the best for me and the support in the extensions make my life easier. Only thing I don't use is the Git extension, I still us git shell.
- drawkbox 8y ago
  > Only thing I don't use is the Git extension, I still us git shell. I prefer my SCM integration outside of my editor or IDE as well. I don't need my IDE to get in the way and spend CPU cycles telling me what files I have changed. I complete something then pop over to git CLI or maybe a tool like SourceTree/Tower etc and check in that feature. I like it as a separate process, when I am in my IDE or editor I am focused on code and then when I am in my git CLI/client I can focus on repos. In my opinion, SCM integration and plugins/extensions into IDEs/editors are mostly annoying and sometimes can lock up or lag editors like Visual Studio and especially MonoDevelop. I do lots of Unity and MonoDevelop's SCM integrations were always heavy and slow. Git/Mercurial/other SCM/repos plugins are usually the first thing I turn off in an editor.
- matwood 8y ago
  I'm in a similar boat. I use gitlens for informational purposes (diffing, see changes, etc...), but do all my git operations on the CLI. It's a bit irrational, but I know the git CLI and don't trust the GUIs to do the right thing. So now I use Intellij for anything Java, VSCode for all other coding and Vim for quick edit tasks. The Vim keybindings keep every editor feeling familiar, but I have the editor benefits where needed (I couldn't imagine writing Java in anything but Intellij for example).
  - Insanity 8y ago
    IdeaVim is a great plugin! I love combining vim with the power of IJ like that.
    - baldfat 8y ago
      It was a lifesaver for me a while back. I am so glad we have good choices for a Vim Extension in so many tools.
pulsarpietro 8y ago
Well done!
pluma 8y ago
User of software A tries out software B, keeps using software A for most tasks, tries out plugins for software B to make it feel more like software A, eventually decides to drop software B again and return to software A full-time. Nothing particularly interesting. However worth emphasising: > VS Code is an excellent IDE and I would recommend any new software developer to use it. It's refreshing to see a take end like this. He acknowledges VS Code is a good IDE although he feels at home with emacs. This emphasises that he didn't stick with emacs because it is superior but because the cost of switching editors simply wasn't worth it to him. That said, this reads more like general tips for emacs users rather than a critique of VS Code. So the title is a bit misleading.
- simooooo 8y ago
  User throws popular tool in title for extra juice
- akuji1993 8y ago
  Yeah this doesn't really apply to anyone who hasn't used Emacs before. I rarely work with any keyboard shortcuts other than the usual ones, so I really don't think this will matter for the average user. Still good to see that the article pretty much acknowledges that fact.
  - baldfat 8y ago
    I would say that most EMacs users agree that the default EMacs are the worst part of EMacs. I have a few friends that use VIM keybindings. I tried to use Spacemacs (EMacs with VIM keybindings) but then MSCode came out for Linux and I haven't looked back. I love VIM modes and keybindings but the worst to get a good workflow for each language was to much for me.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- tangue 8y ago
  This resonated with me because I'm switching back and forth between Emacs and VS Code and actually enjoyed VS Code (and I'm a bit tired of doing things the hard way). I'm considered as a die hard emacs user by friends so this was a bit surprising even to me, and I shared this article because I wanted to know if people on HN are switching too. (edit : grammar)
bbq42 8y ago
TL&DR: guy used to Emacs' keys too lazy to learn new keys for vscode so switch back to Emacs.
da_murvel 8y ago
I can't read the article as I'm getting a security warning. But I've always felt really awkward using an IDE like VS or Eclipse. Even as a beginner when I had no experience of using anything else I thought it was a bit, uncomfortable pointing and clicking and having numerous menu options in my face all the time. So when I got introduced to Emacs by a former colleague I started out with a great amount of scepticism, I mean why should Emacs be so great when nothing else I had tried up until that point hadn't. (I went through VS, Eclipse, Sublime, Atom and 15 minutes of Spacemacs in advance). And at first I wasn't impressed, the concept of doing 99.9% of everything using only the keyboard was completely foreign to me. But the more I got used to it, and all basic key bindings, the more I grew to love Emacs. Today, some three years later I can't even imagine myself developing using something else. I know one can set up other IDEs to get basically the same functionality. But yeah, Emacs comes with the functionality built in so why should I go through all the hassle of setting up the key bindings in VS?
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  It sounds like you used VS as a text editor rather than as an IDE (because you only needed the former, especially as a beginner). It's a little bit like using your car to drive across the block. It's definitely less comfortable than just walking, but it doesn't mean you'll have an easier time if you just try to walk everywhere.
  - jgtrosh 8y ago
    Emacs is not to VS what walking is to driving. It's more like a programmable car instead of a Microsoft™ Drive Studio. I don't think there's a good real life comparison.
- lloeki 8y ago
  > an IDE like VS or Eclipse It is at best ambiguous in your comment whether this is intentional or not but the article is about VSCode (the text editor), not VS (the IDE).
DanielBMarkham 8y ago
I just made the switch also, but from Visual Studio. (Blogged about it here: http://tiny-giant-books.com/blog/things-vscode-didnt-tell-me-about-programming-in-f/ http://tiny-giant-books.com/blog/things-vscode-didnt-tell-me... ) It's amazing how much muscle memory plays a role in tool adoption. The author says "The mismatch between keybindings in VSCode and rest of my tools just kept tying my fingers in knots" You can't spend years and years doing something one way unconsciously and switch without it being quite painful. I think once you're a Emacs user for a decade or more, you're probably an Emacs user for life -- or at least it's going to be painful to switch. "It is important to note that the Project Manager addon may have improved significantly since I last used it a few months ago" Yes. VsCode is a rapidly-changing environment. When I started with it this week, I had downloaded the most popular plugins just for kicks. As it turns out, there were plugins for most every common thing I do. The switch, however, was painful. Looking at my desktop, I've got a dozen editors, half-a-dozen or more IDEs. This is getting crazy. At some point, maybe Emacs is a much better long-term investment. But if you do that, you miss out on seeing what all the cool kids are doing -- and that's important for a lot of other reasons besides programming (Marketing, for instance) Sidebar: People get really, really attached to their IDEs. Maybe as much or more as their favorite programming language.
- hittaruki 8y ago
  What I have noticed is that emacs gets most of the cool things really quickly. You might not get many complex UI elements like a sidebar that are very popular, but other stuff like language server or linters etc that are built for VScode or for specific languages gets a lot of love from emacs user community.
xxxdarrenxxx 8y ago
Nothing beats mom's spaghetti. "I doubt the VS Code team intends to give it a kitchen sink of capabilities that we see in Emacs" This is funny to me, because VS code is partially popular because it gets so frequently updates and added on to. Linux shell commands within vs code? people would laugh if you'd tell them that 5 years ago.
mi_lk 8y ago
After fighting with lsp-mode on c++ and python, finding out they just work™ in vscode gives me the opposite thought. Still love living in Emacs though.
- currymj 8y ago
  well, the Language Server Protocol was developed originally for use in VS Code. So not surprising it works better! (i also wish lsp-mode would improve.)
rjammala 8y ago
I tried many editors including VSCode but keep coming back to Emacs. So far no Emacs emulation mode was able to give me the full Emacs experience. https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs
- swah 8y ago
  Yeah, I used to love Emacs as well, but nowadays there are just so many languages and frameworks, all running together. I bet Steve himself is coding on something like Intellij/VSCode, dropping to Emacs only when the craziest text replacement job is required.
ArtWomb 8y ago
VS Code is the IDE for people that think they hate IDEs. It's extensible enough that you can turn off all the intellisense and highlighting. And just have a pure, performant editor. With multi-cursor shortcuts. A spiffy built-in terminal. And "Zen Mode" for full screen focus ;)
- carlmr 8y ago
  I love IDEs, but I need something that gives me a good consistent editing experience between all the languages, config files and everything in between that's not tracked in a project file of some IDE. That's VSCode for me. My initial reason for switching from Notepad++ to VSCode was file search speed. We have a lot of 5GB folders at work that I can search in a few seconds in VSCode. It needs 2-3 minutes in Notepad++. That is of course thanks to ripgrep.
no_wizard 8y ago
I am a huge proponent of VSCode for new programmers because it comes with a lot of good support for very basic things and even some advanced things. I do find however that it is something that skilled programmers will likely outgrow except perhaps a subset of them. I myself moved on to the JetBrains family of IDEs and use vim for minor edits or doing edits on the command line. I’m not sure how Atom lost out so badly in this they used to be pretty good but I hardly hear about them anymore edit: given that my response was a little vague, i'll elaborate. Visual Studio Code is wonderful for getting your feet wet in programming. New Programmers i've worked (interns, usually) have tended to have professors that teach Java and use NetBeans (i mean whatever, fine). So often thats what they've used as their tool, and usually not a tool that they enjoy all that much (in my experience). Usually I have them start up with VS Code and the feedback I always get is that they feel more productive, especially after adding a few plugins. I think VS Code is just more intuitive to get the hang of and for the most part has a power plugin ecosystem that can take one far enough not to feel like they're completely out of the loop. Where Visual Studio Code and the like start to break down for me (Vim has this problem too, and heck, I have found very few other IDEs that can even handle this properly) is when you get into multi-language projects where you have code that is interdependent on some level. For instance, with Python, I can get Jinja syntax highlighting in just about any editor, but I have yet to find another editor that so perfectly will autocomplete my variables from my Python code into the template and vice versa. Even better, as of recently, I have noted that not only do they complete my variables, but my @context functions are showing up as well, as well as my filters. JetBrains is worth every. damn. penny. This is such less mental overhead to worry about (especially because, if anyone who has read my posts here will note, I'm prone to typos) Once you get to a point where you are consistently living in more complex projects and have multiparadigm code you're writing, I haven't found any tool that handles it this way. I just can't get over how good JetBrains is at making their product suite. I recommend them at every turn. I do not however think, just because there are so many features (and a great plugin ecosystem that it has) recommend it to outright beginners, there is a bit of a ramp that will get in the way of learning I have found if you start people off on it right away (Even with the awesome free versions like PyCharm EDU or Intellj EDU, they're just too overwhelming for newer programmers I have found). With that said, everyone I have worked with who has interned with us has ended up on a JetBrains IDE if they come work for us and I haven't had any real complaints yet. Disclaimer: I don't work for, nor do I receive any compensation from JetBrains. I just think they're a damn good product and deserve to be recognized.
mrweasel 8y ago
I love the idea of VSCode, but I find it rather confusing to use. The configuration of plugins is non-trivial to figure out, sure you can copy paste a bunch of stuff from the web, but how do I figure the configuration out on my own? The best answer I've come up with this far is "You don't". Even opening file/projects is a bit weird to me. VSCode isn't necessarily to blame for this, it's just different from TextMate and Vim. Still I've found it rather difficult to get started with.
- artimaeis 8y ago
  > The configuration of plugins is non-trivial to figure out, sure you can copy paste a bunch of stuff from the web, but how do I figure the configuration out on my own? For what it's worth I feel like the best way is to just explore the settings and see what's there. Ctrl-, to open settings, then you should see the default settings on the left side. Most plugin authors are pretty good about putting decent comments to explain their configurations, and the auto-complete should help to evaluate any options available. > Even opening file/projects is a bit weird to me. I've been using it 2 years now and still find the Ctrl-K Ctrl-O command to open folders awkward and nearly impossible to remember.
  - ztjio 8y ago
    I use 'code' on CLI or drag n drop to open anything. Much easier to use/remember imo.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    >I've been using it 2 years now and still find the Ctrl-K Ctrl-O command to open folders awkward and nearly impossible to remember. cd path/to/folder && code . Pretty easy to remember tbh
- swah 8y ago
  Stockholm syndrome? I remember writing (and I enjoyed doing that more than work days) hundreds of Elisp lines to configure Emacs.
dockthis 8y ago
I can say that for vi(m) users, there is an excellent plugin for VS Code that works quite well. I still struggle with git in VS Code though, I prefer using git on the command line.
- theCodeStig 8y ago
  It does not work well with macros.
- elboru 8y ago
  VS Code has a terminal integrated in its interface and it’s just a short key away from view. You don’t really need to point and click.
atjamielittle 8y ago
I'm a long time emacs user and switched to VSCode for the same reasons (the amazing JS support in VSCode). For keybindings, I'm using the Emacs Friendly Keymap extension and didn't find it to be quite as buggy as the author describes (I might just be using less key combinations though). I used emacs for writing JS for years, and for the time js2-mode was amazing, but the JS I'm writing now is quite a bit different. JSX and Vue templates complicate the situation as well. Since VSCode is written in JS, I suspect that it will always have advantages when writing JS in the same way that emacs will probably always have an advantage when writing Lisp.
alexozer 8y ago
I too came to believe that VSCode could be a great end-all-be-all IDE for me, and that I couldn't potentially miss much in the big, bloated "real IDEs". Fortunately this summer I came to realize that VSCode, at least for non-Javascript/Typescript languages, is laughable compared to the Jetbrains IDEs for Python, C++, Java, etc. Even ignoring all of the extra "features", the Jetbrains IDEs are just so much more intelligent at linting, code completion, and symbol lookup. Vim support is much better too. I do wonder how WebStorm compares to VSCode; I suspect it may not support as many hip frameworks but would still excel in the aforementioned categories.
- specialist 8y ago
  I subscribe to JetBrains Ultimate. I use IntelliJ & WebStorm daily, PyCharm as needed. I LOVE IntelliJ. Meanwhile, I can't overstate how much I hate JavaScript, nodejs, npm, etc. Burning rage of a billion super novas. Bight on humanity. Crimes against reason. And yet. I'm switching to VS Code. I really wanted to hate it. I'm all-in for VS Code. Because Language Server Protocol enables a noob like me to create my own language plugin. Plus, with their docs and videos, the onboarding was trivial. I'm still delighted by this experience. Further, judging from their respective "marketplaces", VS Code clearly has the mindshare and momentum advantage. It's an embarrassment of riches for such a young platform. Having tried and failed to create and maintain plugins for both Eclipse and IntelliJ, this really feels like a sea change.
  - paulryanrogers 8y ago
    Jedit made supporting a bespoke language trivial. Glad to see VS Code is making the process frictionless as well. Makes coding in such languages so much easier on the eyes.
- holtalanm 8y ago
  I haven't used VSCode for Python or C++ yet, but I can agree the Java support is pretty bad. That being said, the C# support in VSCode is absolutely amazing. Better than the Visual Studio IDE, imo.
JAdamMoore 8y ago
People seem to think their failure is universal. This industry is full of tutorials that begin with some garbage about the difficulty of the material. It seems critiques also contain these pointlessly subjective laments. I would rather trust the opinion of someone who regularly finds new things easy to learn, master, and discuss objectively.
wrecursion 8y ago
I have spent a lot of time trying out various editors over the years. The only thing I absolutely require is some basic vim emulation that works the way I expect. To me, vim, neovim, spacemacs, emacs - all require a bit too much configuration for my taste. I just want things to work, without having to spend a lot of time micromanaging them. I tried Atom, but always found it to be super laggy. SublimeText is really nice and fast, but it seemed like some of the support packages were behind the times - and I could never get vim emulation to work the way I thought it should. I have found that VS Code really hits the sweet spot with performance, package management, and vim emulation. Packages are well supported and super easy to manage, and the vim emulation does all I need from it without any noticable lag. I rarely need to change any configuration more than a line or a few at most. Like others have mentioned here, I still do everything with git from the command line - except maybe the occasional diff perusal in gitlens.
mullikine 8y ago
I've been living in tmux since 2009. Vim and emacs have remained strong editors all this time. They helped me to see that I need to transcend from the editor and create my own languages. Now racket will continue to augment my editors for years to come. It's all about the text my friends. Not the scrollbars.
kylestlb 8y ago
I'm surprised that the author didn't like the emacs vscode plugin. I've been able to tweak it to cover most of the text editing and movement commands I use in emacs. In fact I find myself less and less in emacs for front-end stuff because I haven't been able to really configure tide (or tern, etc) to work optimally.
haolez 8y ago
I love Emacs, but I don’t use it anymore because of the key bindings. I like them, but my pinky started aching when using Emacs for long periods of time. Reconfiguring all of them, including the ones from the modes that I use, doesn’t feel like it would produce good results in the end. Since ditching Emacs, I’ve been using Atom, VSCode and Micro, but Emacs is superior IMHO. But multicursor support is really cool in these new editors! I’m using it all the time :)
- fovc 8y ago
  There's an emacs package for that [multiple cursors] :) https://github.com/magnars/multiple-cursors.el https://github.com/magnars/multiple-cursors.el
- dmortin 8y ago
  There is a simple solution for the keybindings: sticky keys. WIth sticky keys you can press the keys one after the other, so you don't have to hit certain keys with your pinky, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys I use it for many years with Emacs and I have no pain in my hands.
roryrjb 8y ago
I really like VS Code, it has some good plugins and it's faster than Atom, but it's still too slow. I use VS Code, Sublime, Intellij or Vim which is my favourite editor. It's my favourite because it runs in the terminal and it's fast. Unlike some others the interface is less important. I like the fact that I can easily run the same setup for Vim on my laptop, via SSH, on OpenBSD, on Linux, inside VirtualBox without a GUI, etc. For Node.js, Python, Perl I think it's all pretty good across all those editors, the only thing I'm struggling with is a good IDE-like experience for Java in Vim. Anyone have any pointers?
liftbigweights 8y ago
If you are on linux, use vim or emacs or a linux-centric IDE. I prefer vim, but others like emacs/etc. But one reason why I will never use VSCode on linux is because they collect data ( or reserve the right to ). If you are on windows, use VSCode for the light stuff (though I prefer other editors ) and Visual Studio for serious coding. I know Visual Studio is "heavy", but if you are going to do windows programming, you should have the hardware to support their IDE. All this evangelism by VSCode and the other side really doesn't contribute much. The key is to stick to a tool and develop some expertise.
fovc 8y ago
Reposting[1] my Emacs setup for JS, which I've found very effective. (Seemed more effective than my coworker's VSCode setup) """ (Disclosure: I'm the author of rjsx-mode) The best setup I've found is to use js2-mode for .js and rjsx-mode for .jsx, which parse the buffer for syntax highlighting, local refactoring (with js2r) and basic linting. For typescript, use typescript-mode. Flow support is quite bad ATM nvm.el replaces the shell scripts from nvm. Add a jsconfig.json to your project root and enable tide-mode for completion. This has worked far better than tern-mode, which some people recommend. For fuller linting than what js2/rjsx offer, use flycheck. Eslint support is built-in, so it should just work, I think. [2018 update: I prefer using tslint, which you can accomplish with: (flycheck-add-mode 'typescript-tslint 'js2-mode) (flycheck-add-mode 'typescript-tslint 'rjsx-mode)] Finally, for build management, I use prodigy to run webpack, babel, ts, etc. Feel free to ping me if you need more help """ One thing I didn't mention then was using mocha.el for mocha/jest, along with indium for debugging. I couldn't get realgud set up properly, but had no issues with indium, including for typescript/babel code. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884940
- bryanwb 8y ago
  This is super helpful. would you mind posting your prodigy configuration? It seems like an excellent tool to run tasks like `yarn develop` If you have any special config for indium, I would love to see that too.
  - fovc 8y ago
    Sure thing. Here's the JS-related prodigy stuff: ``` (prodigy-define-service :name "webpack" :cwd "~/project/" :init-async (lambda (done) (nvm-use-for "~/project/" done)) :command "npm" :args '("run" "build" "--" "--watch") :ready-message "Build Finished") (prodigy-define-service :name "tsc" :cwd "~/project/" :init-async (lambda (done) (nvm-use-for "~/project/" done)) :command "npm" :args '("run" "compile" "--watch") :ready-message "Watching for file changes.") (prodigy-define-service :name "server" :env '(("PORT" "6789") ;; etc. ) :cwd "~/project/" :init-async (lambda (done) (nvm-use-for "~/project/" done)) :command "npm" :args '("run" "serve-dev") :ready-message "Listening on 6789") ```
joeevans1000 8y ago
I use both and am an emacs fan. First off, the key-bindings in emacs are its ridiculous weakness. That's why many smart emacs users use a vim emulator for motions and the other frequent actions. The idea of pressing two keys to move a character is absurd, especially for keys so awkwardly positioned to each other. So, the idea of abandoning VSCode for its lack of the worst part of emacs is certainly not a convincing argument. That said, I keep both editors open. I suggest for anyone wanting to do that to enable vim bindings in both editors and save your fingers.
hollerith 8y ago
I'm an emacs user who would be happier using vscode except that accessing documentation about how vscode is implemented requires a live web connection, and I try to minimize the amount of time I spend connected to the web. I do my Emacs-Lisp hacking offline, which is possible because the emacs-lisp reference manual and other useful resources (e.g., the entirety of emacswiki.org as a directory of MediaWiki markup files) can be downloaded with a single command line. In contrast it is too hard to find and render locally usable collections of vscode, typescript, Electron or JavaScript documentation larger than individual web pages. There are many aspects of my life that require me to be on the web, but I HATE THE WEB and would put up with a lot to avoid making yet another regular activity of mine dependent on my being connected to the web. There is no net connection in my apartment these days (though there is in some of the common rooms in my apartment building) and I do all my emacs hacking in my apartment. I long ago got used to making a constant series of small modifications to my emacs environment. Although I might choose to refrain from getting into the habit of doing that if I could live my life over again, it wouldnt make sense for me to unlearn that habit at this late stage of my life, which explains why i would regularly need access to documentation on how vscode is implemented if I were to replace emacs with vscode. I used to like the web, in the 1990s and later, but it has slowly changed into something I hate. HTML 5 for example severely diminished my experience of the web.
Bizarro 8y ago
My VS Code experience became even better when I learned to drop //@ts-check in every file. You don't have to do that if you setup a jsconfig.json file in the root of your project. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/languages/jsconfig https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/languages/jsconfig
cmmartin 8y ago
The best editor is the one you are most comfortable using. When I hear someone argue that editor x, or even language y, is superior, I remind myself that what they are probably saying is they know that one the best.
OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
vendor lockin is terrible

125 points by tangue 8y ago

every now and then i change things up and explore the field. textmate -> sublime -> vim -> emacs -> idea -> (now) vscode. i really want to like emacs, i think it's probably the most productive environment if you sink a thousand hours into fiddling with your configs and get things just right for yourself but ultimately it's a breath of fresh air when most stuff just works out of the box and your config is just bunch of checkboxes and simple text fields (or json). i've tried spacemacs and i've tried writing my own config - none of it is even close to how quickly you can get comfortable and productive in atom/vscode, even if the productivity ceiling is (maybe) lower than that of emacs. i'm in constant cognitive dissonance about electron apps. atom and vscode are just incredibly good projects.

deleted 8y ago
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olau 8y ago
Maybe I'm the outlier, but what keeps me on Emacs works out of the box without any configuration: the basic editing experience. I do have a few extra things turned on, e.g. global-subword-mode so that I can traverse CamelCase as if it consisted of two words, and a few packages specific to the languages I'm programming in. But that's really secondary.
snlnspc 8y ago
I'm not much of a dev and historically just did things in n++ or vim. I gave a few IDEs a shot as I delved further into development, but wound up sticking with vim and eventually moved to spacemacs. the initial task of setting emacs up seems to be one of the most common complaints, but I don't feel I really went through that with spacemacs. other than adding a layer now and then, I think I've made less than 20 minutes of changes to my config total, most of which was looking into a bit of lisp. perhaps I should've tried a vim plugin for other ides, but I can't see myself switching to something like vscode or a jetbrains ide despite agreeing that they're good.

baldfat 8y ago

I still am loving the VSCode with the VIM extension. I write in Racket, R, Python, JS, and Haxe. I still find Code to be the best for me and the support in the extensions make my life easier. Only thing I don't use is the Git extension, I still us git shell.

drawkbox 8y ago
> Only thing I don't use is the Git extension, I still us git shell. I prefer my SCM integration outside of my editor or IDE as well. I don't need my IDE to get in the way and spend CPU cycles telling me what files I have changed. I complete something then pop over to git CLI or maybe a tool like SourceTree/Tower etc and check in that feature. I like it as a separate process, when I am in my IDE or editor I am focused on code and then when I am in my git CLI/client I can focus on repos. In my opinion, SCM integration and plugins/extensions into IDEs/editors are mostly annoying and sometimes can lock up or lag editors like Visual Studio and especially MonoDevelop. I do lots of Unity and MonoDevelop's SCM integrations were always heavy and slow. Git/Mercurial/other SCM/repos plugins are usually the first thing I turn off in an editor.
matwood 8y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I use gitlens for informational purposes (diffing, see changes, etc...), but do all my git operations on the CLI. It's a bit irrational, but I know the git CLI and don't trust the GUIs to do the right thing. So now I use Intellij for anything Java, VSCode for all other coding and Vim for quick edit tasks. The Vim keybindings keep every editor feeling familiar, but I have the editor benefits where needed (I couldn't imagine writing Java in anything but Intellij for example).
- Insanity 8y ago
  IdeaVim is a great plugin! I love combining vim with the power of IJ like that.
  - baldfat 8y ago
    It was a lifesaver for me a while back. I am so glad we have good choices for a Vim Extension in so many tools.

pulsarpietro 8y ago

Well done!

pluma 8y ago

User of software A tries out software B, keeps using software A for most tasks, tries out plugins for software B to make it feel more like software A, eventually decides to drop software B again and return to software A full-time. Nothing particularly interesting. However worth emphasising: > VS Code is an excellent IDE and I would recommend any new software developer to use it. It's refreshing to see a take end like this. He acknowledges VS Code is a good IDE although he feels at home with emacs. This emphasises that he didn't stick with emacs because it is superior but because the cost of switching editors simply wasn't worth it to him. That said, this reads more like general tips for emacs users rather than a critique of VS Code. So the title is a bit misleading.

simooooo 8y ago
User throws popular tool in title for extra juice
akuji1993 8y ago
Yeah this doesn't really apply to anyone who hasn't used Emacs before. I rarely work with any keyboard shortcuts other than the usual ones, so I really don't think this will matter for the average user. Still good to see that the article pretty much acknowledges that fact.
- baldfat 8y ago
  I would say that most EMacs users agree that the default EMacs are the worst part of EMacs. I have a few friends that use VIM keybindings. I tried to use Spacemacs (EMacs with VIM keybindings) but then MSCode came out for Linux and I haven't looked back. I love VIM modes and keybindings but the worst to get a good workflow for each language was to much for me.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
tangue 8y ago
This resonated with me because I'm switching back and forth between Emacs and VS Code and actually enjoyed VS Code (and I'm a bit tired of doing things the hard way). I'm considered as a die hard emacs user by friends so this was a bit surprising even to me, and I shared this article because I wanted to know if people on HN are switching too. (edit : grammar)

bbq42 8y ago

TL&DR: guy used to Emacs' keys too lazy to learn new keys for vscode so switch back to Emacs.

da_murvel 8y ago

I can't read the article as I'm getting a security warning. But I've always felt really awkward using an IDE like VS or Eclipse. Even as a beginner when I had no experience of using anything else I thought it was a bit, uncomfortable pointing and clicking and having numerous menu options in my face all the time. So when I got introduced to Emacs by a former colleague I started out with a great amount of scepticism, I mean why should Emacs be so great when nothing else I had tried up until that point hadn't. (I went through VS, Eclipse, Sublime, Atom and 15 minutes of Spacemacs in advance). And at first I wasn't impressed, the concept of doing 99.9% of everything using only the keyboard was completely foreign to me. But the more I got used to it, and all basic key bindings, the more I grew to love Emacs. Today, some three years later I can't even imagine myself developing using something else. I know one can set up other IDEs to get basically the same functionality. But yeah, Emacs comes with the functionality built in so why should I go through all the hassle of setting up the key bindings in VS?

mehrdadn 8y ago
It sounds like you used VS as a text editor rather than as an IDE (because you only needed the former, especially as a beginner). It's a little bit like using your car to drive across the block. It's definitely less comfortable than just walking, but it doesn't mean you'll have an easier time if you just try to walk everywhere.
- jgtrosh 8y ago
  Emacs is not to VS what walking is to driving. It's more like a programmable car instead of a Microsoft™ Drive Studio. I don't think there's a good real life comparison.
lloeki 8y ago
> an IDE like VS or Eclipse It is at best ambiguous in your comment whether this is intentional or not but the article is about VSCode (the text editor), not VS (the IDE).

DanielBMarkham 8y ago

I just made the switch also, but from Visual Studio. (Blogged about it here: http://tiny-giant-books.com/blog/things-vscode-didnt-tell-me-about-programming-in-f/ http://tiny-giant-books.com/blog/things-vscode-didnt-tell-me... ) It's amazing how much muscle memory plays a role in tool adoption. The author says "The mismatch between keybindings in VSCode and rest of my tools just kept tying my fingers in knots" You can't spend years and years doing something one way unconsciously and switch without it being quite painful. I think once you're a Emacs user for a decade or more, you're probably an Emacs user for life -- or at least it's going to be painful to switch. "It is important to note that the Project Manager addon may have improved significantly since I last used it a few months ago" Yes. VsCode is a rapidly-changing environment. When I started with it this week, I had downloaded the most popular plugins just for kicks. As it turns out, there were plugins for most every common thing I do. The switch, however, was painful. Looking at my desktop, I've got a dozen editors, half-a-dozen or more IDEs. This is getting crazy. At some point, maybe Emacs is a much better long-term investment. But if you do that, you miss out on seeing what all the cool kids are doing -- and that's important for a lot of other reasons besides programming (Marketing, for instance) Sidebar: People get really, really attached to their IDEs. Maybe as much or more as their favorite programming language.

hittaruki 8y ago
What I have noticed is that emacs gets most of the cool things really quickly. You might not get many complex UI elements like a sidebar that are very popular, but other stuff like language server or linters etc that are built for VScode or for specific languages gets a lot of love from emacs user community.

xxxdarrenxxx 8y ago

Nothing beats mom's spaghetti. "I doubt the VS Code team intends to give it a kitchen sink of capabilities that we see in Emacs" This is funny to me, because VS code is partially popular because it gets so frequently updates and added on to. Linux shell commands within vs code? people would laugh if you'd tell them that 5 years ago.

mi_lk 8y ago

After fighting with lsp-mode on c++ and python, finding out they just work™ in vscode gives me the opposite thought. Still love living in Emacs though.

currymj 8y ago
well, the Language Server Protocol was developed originally for use in VS Code. So not surprising it works better! (i also wish lsp-mode would improve.)

rjammala 8y ago

I tried many editors including VSCode but keep coming back to Emacs. So far no Emacs emulation mode was able to give me the full Emacs experience. https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs

swah 8y ago
Yeah, I used to love Emacs as well, but nowadays there are just so many languages and frameworks, all running together. I bet Steve himself is coding on something like Intellij/VSCode, dropping to Emacs only when the craziest text replacement job is required.

ArtWomb 8y ago

VS Code is the IDE for people that think they hate IDEs. It's extensible enough that you can turn off all the intellisense and highlighting. And just have a pure, performant editor. With multi-cursor shortcuts. A spiffy built-in terminal. And "Zen Mode" for full screen focus ;)

carlmr 8y ago
I love IDEs, but I need something that gives me a good consistent editing experience between all the languages, config files and everything in between that's not tracked in a project file of some IDE. That's VSCode for me. My initial reason for switching from Notepad++ to VSCode was file search speed. We have a lot of 5GB folders at work that I can search in a few seconds in VSCode. It needs 2-3 minutes in Notepad++. That is of course thanks to ripgrep.

no_wizard 8y ago

I am a huge proponent of VSCode for new programmers because it comes with a lot of good support for very basic things and even some advanced things. I do find however that it is something that skilled programmers will likely outgrow except perhaps a subset of them. I myself moved on to the JetBrains family of IDEs and use vim for minor edits or doing edits on the command line. I’m not sure how Atom lost out so badly in this they used to be pretty good but I hardly hear about them anymore edit: given that my response was a little vague, i'll elaborate. Visual Studio Code is wonderful for getting your feet wet in programming. New Programmers i've worked (interns, usually) have tended to have professors that teach Java and use NetBeans (i mean whatever, fine). So often thats what they've used as their tool, and usually not a tool that they enjoy all that much (in my experience). Usually I have them start up with VS Code and the feedback I always get is that they feel more productive, especially after adding a few plugins. I think VS Code is just more intuitive to get the hang of and for the most part has a power plugin ecosystem that can take one far enough not to feel like they're completely out of the loop. Where Visual Studio Code and the like start to break down for me (Vim has this problem too, and heck, I have found very few other IDEs that can even handle this properly) is when you get into multi-language projects where you have code that is interdependent on some level. For instance, with Python, I can get Jinja syntax highlighting in just about any editor, but I have yet to find another editor that so perfectly will autocomplete my variables from my Python code into the template and vice versa. Even better, as of recently, I have noted that not only do they complete my variables, but my @context functions are showing up as well, as well as my filters. JetBrains is worth every. damn. penny. This is such less mental overhead to worry about (especially because, if anyone who has read my posts here will note, I'm prone to typos) Once you get to a point where you are consistently living in more complex projects and have multiparadigm code you're writing, I haven't found any tool that handles it this way. I just can't get over how good JetBrains is at making their product suite. I recommend them at every turn. I do not however think, just because there are so many features (and a great plugin ecosystem that it has) recommend it to outright beginners, there is a bit of a ramp that will get in the way of learning I have found if you start people off on it right away (Even with the awesome free versions like PyCharm EDU or Intellj EDU, they're just too overwhelming for newer programmers I have found). With that said, everyone I have worked with who has interned with us has ended up on a JetBrains IDE if they come work for us and I haven't had any real complaints yet. Disclaimer: I don't work for, nor do I receive any compensation from JetBrains. I just think they're a damn good product and deserve to be recognized.

mrweasel 8y ago

I love the idea of VSCode, but I find it rather confusing to use. The configuration of plugins is non-trivial to figure out, sure you can copy paste a bunch of stuff from the web, but how do I figure the configuration out on my own? The best answer I've come up with this far is "You don't". Even opening file/projects is a bit weird to me. VSCode isn't necessarily to blame for this, it's just different from TextMate and Vim. Still I've found it rather difficult to get started with.

artimaeis 8y ago
> The configuration of plugins is non-trivial to figure out, sure you can copy paste a bunch of stuff from the web, but how do I figure the configuration out on my own? For what it's worth I feel like the best way is to just explore the settings and see what's there. Ctrl-, to open settings, then you should see the default settings on the left side. Most plugin authors are pretty good about putting decent comments to explain their configurations, and the auto-complete should help to evaluate any options available. > Even opening file/projects is a bit weird to me. I've been using it 2 years now and still find the Ctrl-K Ctrl-O command to open folders awkward and nearly impossible to remember.
- ztjio 8y ago
  I use 'code' on CLI or drag n drop to open anything. Much easier to use/remember imo.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  >I've been using it 2 years now and still find the Ctrl-K Ctrl-O command to open folders awkward and nearly impossible to remember. cd path/to/folder && code . Pretty easy to remember tbh
swah 8y ago
Stockholm syndrome? I remember writing (and I enjoyed doing that more than work days) hundreds of Elisp lines to configure Emacs.

dockthis 8y ago

I can say that for vi(m) users, there is an excellent plugin for VS Code that works quite well. I still struggle with git in VS Code though, I prefer using git on the command line.

theCodeStig 8y ago
It does not work well with macros.
elboru 8y ago
VS Code has a terminal integrated in its interface and it’s just a short key away from view. You don’t really need to point and click.

atjamielittle 8y ago

I'm a long time emacs user and switched to VSCode for the same reasons (the amazing JS support in VSCode). For keybindings, I'm using the Emacs Friendly Keymap extension and didn't find it to be quite as buggy as the author describes (I might just be using less key combinations though). I used emacs for writing JS for years, and for the time js2-mode was amazing, but the JS I'm writing now is quite a bit different. JSX and Vue templates complicate the situation as well. Since VSCode is written in JS, I suspect that it will always have advantages when writing JS in the same way that emacs will probably always have an advantage when writing Lisp.

alexozer 8y ago

I too came to believe that VSCode could be a great end-all-be-all IDE for me, and that I couldn't potentially miss much in the big, bloated "real IDEs". Fortunately this summer I came to realize that VSCode, at least for non-Javascript/Typescript languages, is laughable compared to the Jetbrains IDEs for Python, C++, Java, etc. Even ignoring all of the extra "features", the Jetbrains IDEs are just so much more intelligent at linting, code completion, and symbol lookup. Vim support is much better too. I do wonder how WebStorm compares to VSCode; I suspect it may not support as many hip frameworks but would still excel in the aforementioned categories.

specialist 8y ago
I subscribe to JetBrains Ultimate. I use IntelliJ & WebStorm daily, PyCharm as needed. I LOVE IntelliJ. Meanwhile, I can't overstate how much I hate JavaScript, nodejs, npm, etc. Burning rage of a billion super novas. Bight on humanity. Crimes against reason. And yet. I'm switching to VS Code. I really wanted to hate it. I'm all-in for VS Code. Because Language Server Protocol enables a noob like me to create my own language plugin. Plus, with their docs and videos, the onboarding was trivial. I'm still delighted by this experience. Further, judging from their respective "marketplaces", VS Code clearly has the mindshare and momentum advantage. It's an embarrassment of riches for such a young platform. Having tried and failed to create and maintain plugins for both Eclipse and IntelliJ, this really feels like a sea change.
- paulryanrogers 8y ago
  Jedit made supporting a bespoke language trivial. Glad to see VS Code is making the process frictionless as well. Makes coding in such languages so much easier on the eyes.
holtalanm 8y ago
I haven't used VSCode for Python or C++ yet, but I can agree the Java support is pretty bad. That being said, the C# support in VSCode is absolutely amazing. Better than the Visual Studio IDE, imo.

JAdamMoore 8y ago

People seem to think their failure is universal. This industry is full of tutorials that begin with some garbage about the difficulty of the material. It seems critiques also contain these pointlessly subjective laments. I would rather trust the opinion of someone who regularly finds new things easy to learn, master, and discuss objectively.

wrecursion 8y ago

I have spent a lot of time trying out various editors over the years. The only thing I absolutely require is some basic vim emulation that works the way I expect. To me, vim, neovim, spacemacs, emacs - all require a bit too much configuration for my taste. I just want things to work, without having to spend a lot of time micromanaging them. I tried Atom, but always found it to be super laggy. SublimeText is really nice and fast, but it seemed like some of the support packages were behind the times - and I could never get vim emulation to work the way I thought it should. I have found that VS Code really hits the sweet spot with performance, package management, and vim emulation. Packages are well supported and super easy to manage, and the vim emulation does all I need from it without any noticable lag. I rarely need to change any configuration more than a line or a few at most. Like others have mentioned here, I still do everything with git from the command line - except maybe the occasional diff perusal in gitlens.

mullikine 8y ago

I've been living in tmux since 2009. Vim and emacs have remained strong editors all this time. They helped me to see that I need to transcend from the editor and create my own languages. Now racket will continue to augment my editors for years to come. It's all about the text my friends. Not the scrollbars.

kylestlb 8y ago

I'm surprised that the author didn't like the emacs vscode plugin. I've been able to tweak it to cover most of the text editing and movement commands I use in emacs. In fact I find myself less and less in emacs for front-end stuff because I haven't been able to really configure tide (or tern, etc) to work optimally.

haolez 8y ago

I love Emacs, but I don’t use it anymore because of the key bindings. I like them, but my pinky started aching when using Emacs for long periods of time. Reconfiguring all of them, including the ones from the modes that I use, doesn’t feel like it would produce good results in the end. Since ditching Emacs, I’ve been using Atom, VSCode and Micro, but Emacs is superior IMHO. But multicursor support is really cool in these new editors! I’m using it all the time :)

fovc 8y ago
There's an emacs package for that [multiple cursors] :) https://github.com/magnars/multiple-cursors.el https://github.com/magnars/multiple-cursors.el
dmortin 8y ago
There is a simple solution for the keybindings: sticky keys. WIth sticky keys you can press the keys one after the other, so you don't have to hit certain keys with your pinky, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys I use it for many years with Emacs and I have no pain in my hands.

roryrjb 8y ago

I really like VS Code, it has some good plugins and it's faster than Atom, but it's still too slow. I use VS Code, Sublime, Intellij or Vim which is my favourite editor. It's my favourite because it runs in the terminal and it's fast. Unlike some others the interface is less important. I like the fact that I can easily run the same setup for Vim on my laptop, via SSH, on OpenBSD, on Linux, inside VirtualBox without a GUI, etc. For Node.js, Python, Perl I think it's all pretty good across all those editors, the only thing I'm struggling with is a good IDE-like experience for Java in Vim. Anyone have any pointers?

liftbigweights 8y ago

If you are on linux, use vim or emacs or a linux-centric IDE. I prefer vim, but others like emacs/etc. But one reason why I will never use VSCode on linux is because they collect data ( or reserve the right to ). If you are on windows, use VSCode for the light stuff (though I prefer other editors ) and Visual Studio for serious coding. I know Visual Studio is "heavy", but if you are going to do windows programming, you should have the hardware to support their IDE. All this evangelism by VSCode and the other side really doesn't contribute much. The key is to stick to a tool and develop some expertise.

fovc 8y ago

Reposting[1] my Emacs setup for JS, which I've found very effective. (Seemed more effective than my coworker's VSCode setup) """ (Disclosure: I'm the author of rjsx-mode) The best setup I've found is to use js2-mode for .js and rjsx-mode for .jsx, which parse the buffer for syntax highlighting, local refactoring (with js2r) and basic linting. For typescript, use typescript-mode. Flow support is quite bad ATM nvm.el replaces the shell scripts from nvm. Add a jsconfig.json to your project root and enable tide-mode for completion. This has worked far better than tern-mode, which some people recommend. For fuller linting than what js2/rjsx offer, use flycheck. Eslint support is built-in, so it should just work, I think. [2018 update: I prefer using tslint, which you can accomplish with: (flycheck-add-mode 'typescript-tslint 'js2-mode) (flycheck-add-mode 'typescript-tslint 'rjsx-mode)] Finally, for build management, I use prodigy to run webpack, babel, ts, etc. Feel free to ping me if you need more help """ One thing I didn't mention then was using mocha.el for mocha/jest, along with indium for debugging. I couldn't get realgud set up properly, but had no issues with indium, including for typescript/babel code. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884940

bryanwb 8y ago
This is super helpful. would you mind posting your prodigy configuration? It seems like an excellent tool to run tasks like `yarn develop` If you have any special config for indium, I would love to see that too.
- fovc 8y ago
  Sure thing. Here's the JS-related prodigy stuff: ``` (prodigy-define-service :name "webpack" :cwd "~/project/" :init-async (lambda (done) (nvm-use-for "~/project/" done)) :command "npm" :args '("run" "build" "--" "--watch") :ready-message "Build Finished") (prodigy-define-service :name "tsc" :cwd "~/project/" :init-async (lambda (done) (nvm-use-for "~/project/" done)) :command "npm" :args '("run" "compile" "--watch") :ready-message "Watching for file changes.") (prodigy-define-service :name "server" :env '(("PORT" "6789") ;; etc. ) :cwd "~/project/" :init-async (lambda (done) (nvm-use-for "~/project/" done)) :command "npm" :args '("run" "serve-dev") :ready-message "Listening on 6789") ```

joeevans1000 8y ago

I use both and am an emacs fan. First off, the key-bindings in emacs are its ridiculous weakness. That's why many smart emacs users use a vim emulator for motions and the other frequent actions. The idea of pressing two keys to move a character is absurd, especially for keys so awkwardly positioned to each other. So, the idea of abandoning VSCode for its lack of the worst part of emacs is certainly not a convincing argument. That said, I keep both editors open. I suggest for anyone wanting to do that to enable vim bindings in both editors and save your fingers.

hollerith 8y ago

I'm an emacs user who would be happier using vscode except that accessing documentation about how vscode is implemented requires a live web connection, and I try to minimize the amount of time I spend connected to the web. I do my Emacs-Lisp hacking offline, which is possible because the emacs-lisp reference manual and other useful resources (e.g., the entirety of emacswiki.org as a directory of MediaWiki markup files) can be downloaded with a single command line. In contrast it is too hard to find and render locally usable collections of vscode, typescript, Electron or JavaScript documentation larger than individual web pages. There are many aspects of my life that require me to be on the web, but I HATE THE WEB and would put up with a lot to avoid making yet another regular activity of mine dependent on my being connected to the web. There is no net connection in my apartment these days (though there is in some of the common rooms in my apartment building) and I do all my emacs hacking in my apartment. I long ago got used to making a constant series of small modifications to my emacs environment. Although I might choose to refrain from getting into the habit of doing that if I could live my life over again, it wouldnt make sense for me to unlearn that habit at this late stage of my life, which explains why i would regularly need access to documentation on how vscode is implemented if I were to replace emacs with vscode. I used to like the web, in the 1990s and later, but it has slowly changed into something I hate. HTML 5 for example severely diminished my experience of the web.

Bizarro 8y ago

My VS Code experience became even better when I learned to drop //@ts-check in every file. You don't have to do that if you setup a jsconfig.json file in the root of your project. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/languages/jsconfig https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/languages/jsconfig

cmmartin 8y ago

The best editor is the one you are most comfortable using. When I hear someone argue that editor x, or even language y, is superior, I remind myself that what they are probably saying is they know that one the best.

OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago

vendor lockin is terrible