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I’ve never understood the impetus for not using full LaTeX in an academic contex, given that the boiler plate is so minimal and presumably one has a built up a

I’ve never understood the impetus for not using full LaTeX in an academic contex, given that the boiler plate is so minimal and presumably one has a built up a personal template over time. For blog posts and notes I see the appeal, since the boilerplate can be a hindrance to spontaneous writing.

hatmatrix 8y ago
I agree - while pandoc is great it's usually not 'one click' to any format, especially when have html or latex-specific markups. It's not for everyone, but emacs+auctex really reduces the latex boilerplate (at least writing it) that I don't really feel it's a hindrance.
susam 8y ago
I agree. If one is going to use LaTeX directly or indirectly via Pandoc, eventually one would have to build up a personal template to fine-tune the look and feel of the documents. If one is going to write LaTeX code anyway, it seems easier and cleaner to use LaTeX all the way, move all the boilerplate along with the personal template to say, a file named preamble.tex, and \input{preamble.tex} in the documents. However, there are situations where Pandoc can be convenient. For example, I wanted a document[1] to be written primarily as README.md (CommonMark format), so that GitHub could render it as the project README. At the same time I wanted to render a PDF output from a customized form of the content. Pandoc is convenient for cases like this although it takes a bit of work to fine-tune the formatting and customize the content for each output format. [1]: https://github.com/susam/gitpr https://github.com/susam/gitpr [2]: https://github.com/susam/gitpr/blob/master/Makefile https://github.com/susam/gitpr/blob/master/Makefile
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >If one is going to write LaTeX code anyway, it seems easier and cleaner to use LaTeX all the way, move all the boilerplate along with the personal template to say, a file named preamble.tex, and \input{preamble.tex} in the documents. Not sure why you think it has to be that way. I author LaTeX documents using org mode. Org mode handles most of the boilerplate, and I can still put pretty much any custom LaTeX within the org document, wherever I want it (this includes \newcommand, etc). I lose nothing by going to org mode, and I gain much in terms of reduced boilerplate.
  - tonyarkles 8y ago
    Yup. I’ve got a pandoc template for doing org-latex-pdf conversion, as well as some org templates for common documents that my clients need. Hack away on the document in org (which I’m probably going to be doing anyway, since the rest of my life is in there too), and then when it’s ready to hand off, turn it into a PDF using a shell script. My absolute favourite moment with that flow was a client who wanted one as a docx instead of a PDF. Pandoc obliged and they commented that I must have spent a lot of time reformatting things for them :)
    - Nullabillity 8y ago
      Why not use Org's built-in org->latex->pdf exporter? AFAIK Pandoc isn't compatible with many of the more interesting Org features, such as Babel.
      - tonyarkles 8y ago
        That's a good question! The flow started out as markdown->latex->pdf via pandoc, and then when I got back into Org, it just slid right into that workflow to replace Markdown. I'm curious now though... maybe I'm missing out!
  - foo101 8y ago
    It isn't clear to me whether you are saying that Pandoc is necessary or if you are saying that Pandoc is unnecessary and LaTeX alone is sufficient for all purposes. I think your parent comment was saying that LaTeX alone is sufficient. You also seem to be saying that LaTeX alone is sufficient while using Org mode. Would you please clarify if I am interpreting your comment correctly or not?
    - brennebeck 8y ago
      Pretty sure they are saying pandoc is unnecessary.
    - BeetleB 8y ago
      >It isn't clear to me whether you are saying that Pandoc is necessary or if you are saying that Pandoc is unnecessary and LaTeX alone is sufficient for all purposes. I'm not saying either. The parent said it's easier and cleaner to use LaTeX all the way. I was pointing out that it is easier to write in a format like Org mode and export to LaTeX (whether via Pandoc or Org mode's built-in exporter). Of course LaTeX is "sufficient". It is also, IMO, painful.
BeetleB 8y ago
>I’ve never understood the impetus for not using full LaTeX in an academic contex, given that the boiler plate is so minimal and presumably one has a built up a personal template over time. I don't find the boilerplate minimal at all. Contrast the following: \begin{itemize} \item First \item Second \item Third \end{itemize} with - First - Second - Third I won't even get into the hell that is tables. I loved LaTeX until I discovered Org Mode. Pandoc also scratches the same itch.
CJefferson 8y ago
Latex can't produce web output, which is increasingly a target I want. Also, Latex can't produce any output which is accessible to blind people (other than giving them the raw LaTeX). The PDFs latex produces are probably the least accessible format available (much worse than a word proeuced pdf, or some html). This matters to me, and should matter more to other people (in my opinion).
- voltagex_ 8y ago
  >Also, Latex can't produce any output which is accessible to blind people This sounds like it should definitely be a target of a grant. I guess most government organisations around the world are using Word et al, which isn't too bad these days accessibility wise (AFAIK). Can you provide a small example of a LateX document that produces an inaccessible PDF?
  - CJefferson 8y ago
    If you grab any academic paper (particularly two columns) there is a good chance getting the text out will be hard, and any part of the paper with maths or tables will be unusable. Sorry. I'm away from a computer now, to make a smaller example.
    - masklinn 8y ago
      The paper "GADTs Meet Their Match" (first I had in my list) seems to work fine, but I don't know what it was generated with.
      - voltagex_ 8y ago
        cairo 1.13.1 is listed as the generator. http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fresearch%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2Fgadtpm-acm.pdf http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.m... The ACM template fails more! http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https://www.acm.org/binaries/content/assets/publications/article-templates/sig-alternate-sample.pdf http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https://www.acm.org..., and it's generated by pdfTex-1.40.15
stdbrouw 8y ago
Having to use `\textbf{...}` is impetus enough for writing in Markdown instead.
- nanna 8y ago
  LaTeX editors have simple keybindings for this, like ctl-b., or C-c C-f C-b in emacs, which makes this kind of thing a non-issue for me...
  - Anonymous4C54D6 8y ago
    Just reading C-c C-f C-b is an issue for me and I haven't even tried to remember and type it yet.
    - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
      C-c C-f is a prefix key, you get bold with C-b, italic with C-i and so on. At least it was last time I used AucTex :)
sevensor 8y ago
I wrote my dissertation using Pandoc. It might seem that the LaTeX boilerplate is minimal, but Markdown is even more minimal, and it preempts the urge to fuss with your layout. Writing in Markdown means that you can wave your hand at the document and say, "It's a draft, I'll fix the formatting once I'm sure I even want this material." Afterwards, fixing the layout is really easy because you can drop raw LaTeX in wherever you need to, and you haven't wasted countless hours laying out a float you later end up cutting.
neves 8y ago
I didn't use LaTex for years, is it still a hell to make tables? And also very difficult to use templates to generate good looking documents that doesn't like an academic paper?

hatmatrix 8y ago

I agree - while pandoc is great it's usually not 'one click' to any format, especially when have html or latex-specific markups. It's not for everyone, but emacs+auctex really reduces the latex boilerplate (at least writing it) that I don't really feel it's a hindrance.

susam 8y ago

I agree. If one is going to use LaTeX directly or indirectly via Pandoc, eventually one would have to build up a personal template to fine-tune the look and feel of the documents. If one is going to write LaTeX code anyway, it seems easier and cleaner to use LaTeX all the way, move all the boilerplate along with the personal template to say, a file named preamble.tex, and \input{preamble.tex} in the documents. However, there are situations where Pandoc can be convenient. For example, I wanted a document[1] to be written primarily as README.md (CommonMark format), so that GitHub could render it as the project README. At the same time I wanted to render a PDF output from a customized form of the content. Pandoc is convenient for cases like this although it takes a bit of work to fine-tune the formatting and customize the content for each output format. [1]: https://github.com/susam/gitpr https://github.com/susam/gitpr [2]: https://github.com/susam/gitpr/blob/master/Makefile https://github.com/susam/gitpr/blob/master/Makefile

BeetleB 8y ago
>If one is going to write LaTeX code anyway, it seems easier and cleaner to use LaTeX all the way, move all the boilerplate along with the personal template to say, a file named preamble.tex, and \input{preamble.tex} in the documents. Not sure why you think it has to be that way. I author LaTeX documents using org mode. Org mode handles most of the boilerplate, and I can still put pretty much any custom LaTeX within the org document, wherever I want it (this includes \newcommand, etc). I lose nothing by going to org mode, and I gain much in terms of reduced boilerplate.
- tonyarkles 8y ago
  Yup. I’ve got a pandoc template for doing org-latex-pdf conversion, as well as some org templates for common documents that my clients need. Hack away on the document in org (which I’m probably going to be doing anyway, since the rest of my life is in there too), and then when it’s ready to hand off, turn it into a PDF using a shell script. My absolute favourite moment with that flow was a client who wanted one as a docx instead of a PDF. Pandoc obliged and they commented that I must have spent a lot of time reformatting things for them :)
  - Nullabillity 8y ago
    Why not use Org's built-in org->latex->pdf exporter? AFAIK Pandoc isn't compatible with many of the more interesting Org features, such as Babel.
    - tonyarkles 8y ago
      That's a good question! The flow started out as markdown->latex->pdf via pandoc, and then when I got back into Org, it just slid right into that workflow to replace Markdown. I'm curious now though... maybe I'm missing out!
- foo101 8y ago
  It isn't clear to me whether you are saying that Pandoc is necessary or if you are saying that Pandoc is unnecessary and LaTeX alone is sufficient for all purposes. I think your parent comment was saying that LaTeX alone is sufficient. You also seem to be saying that LaTeX alone is sufficient while using Org mode. Would you please clarify if I am interpreting your comment correctly or not?
  - brennebeck 8y ago
    Pretty sure they are saying pandoc is unnecessary.
  - BeetleB 8y ago
    >It isn't clear to me whether you are saying that Pandoc is necessary or if you are saying that Pandoc is unnecessary and LaTeX alone is sufficient for all purposes. I'm not saying either. The parent said it's easier and cleaner to use LaTeX all the way. I was pointing out that it is easier to write in a format like Org mode and export to LaTeX (whether via Pandoc or Org mode's built-in exporter). Of course LaTeX is "sufficient". It is also, IMO, painful.

BeetleB 8y ago

>I’ve never understood the impetus for not using full LaTeX in an academic contex, given that the boiler plate is so minimal and presumably one has a built up a personal template over time. I don't find the boilerplate minimal at all. Contrast the following: \begin{itemize} \item First \item Second \item Third \end{itemize} with - First - Second - Third I won't even get into the hell that is tables. I loved LaTeX until I discovered Org Mode. Pandoc also scratches the same itch.

CJefferson 8y ago

Latex can't produce web output, which is increasingly a target I want. Also, Latex can't produce any output which is accessible to blind people (other than giving them the raw LaTeX). The PDFs latex produces are probably the least accessible format available (much worse than a word proeuced pdf, or some html). This matters to me, and should matter more to other people (in my opinion).

voltagex_ 8y ago
>Also, Latex can't produce any output which is accessible to blind people This sounds like it should definitely be a target of a grant. I guess most government organisations around the world are using Word et al, which isn't too bad these days accessibility wise (AFAIK). Can you provide a small example of a LateX document that produces an inaccessible PDF?
- CJefferson 8y ago
  If you grab any academic paper (particularly two columns) there is a good chance getting the text out will be hard, and any part of the paper with maths or tables will be unusable. Sorry. I'm away from a computer now, to make a smaller example.
  - masklinn 8y ago
    The paper "GADTs Meet Their Match" (first I had in my list) seems to work fine, but I don't know what it was generated with.
    - voltagex_ 8y ago
      cairo 1.13.1 is listed as the generator. http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fresearch%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2Fgadtpm-acm.pdf http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.m... The ACM template fails more! http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https://www.acm.org/binaries/content/assets/publications/article-templates/sig-alternate-sample.pdf http://checkers.eiii.eu/en/pdfcheck/?url=https://www.acm.org..., and it's generated by pdfTex-1.40.15

stdbrouw 8y ago

Having to use `\textbf{...}` is impetus enough for writing in Markdown instead.

nanna 8y ago
LaTeX editors have simple keybindings for this, like ctl-b., or C-c C-f C-b in emacs, which makes this kind of thing a non-issue for me...
- Anonymous4C54D6 8y ago
  Just reading C-c C-f C-b is an issue for me and I haven't even tried to remember and type it yet.
  - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
    C-c C-f is a prefix key, you get bold with C-b, italic with C-i and so on. At least it was last time I used AucTex :)

sevensor 8y ago

I wrote my dissertation using Pandoc. It might seem that the LaTeX boilerplate is minimal, but Markdown is even more minimal, and it preempts the urge to fuss with your layout. Writing in Markdown means that you can wave your hand at the document and say, "It's a draft, I'll fix the formatting once I'm sure I even want this material." Afterwards, fixing the layout is really easy because you can drop raw LaTeX in wherever you need to, and you haven't wasted countless hours laying out a float you later end up cutting.

neves 8y ago

I didn't use LaTex for years, is it still a hell to make tables? And also very difficult to use templates to generate good looking documents that doesn't like an academic paper?