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It's not just Germany that has lower tech wages. I've looked at moving back home to the UK many times so that I can spend more time with my family, but can't re

It's not just Germany that has lower tech wages. I've looked at moving back home to the UK many times so that I can spend more time with my family, but can't reconcile the fact that I'd have to take a 75-80% pay cut to stay in this industry. Compared to North America, software engineers are paid pittance in the UK... now that you've brought my attention to the fact it's the same in Germany, it begs me to ask the question - is this the same in all of Europe?

NikolaNovak 8y ago
>> Compared to North America, software engineers are paid pittance I'm not certain it's North America as a whole. I'm in Toronto, mostly considered the highest paid city in Canada, and I've long decided to not pay attention to Silicon Valley salaries, lest I get depressed :) Whether you search for developer, software engineer, system administrator, SRE or the like, salaries in California seem positively extravagant to those in Toronto (which also has a very high baseline cost of living). Further, I'm pretty sure Mexico salaries are even further depressed (which is the third country composing "North America" :)
bitwize 8y ago
It's probably the same everywhere there's not a myth of programmers as rarefied hacker geniuses homesteading the tech frontier, as well as enough VC funding sloshing around to pay those rockstar ninjas the SV-tier salaries they demand. Most programmers are maintenance tradesmen, and are paid accordingly.
perneto 8y ago
No. The UK has some of the worst tech wages in Europe, esp. on a cost-of-living adjusted basis. Switzerland is on par or better than the US. Other countries fall on a spectrum in between. FYI this isn't limited to Europe; Canada also pays much lower than the US. (The Seattle vs Vancouver comparison is especially striking). Elsewhere, Singapore is comparable to Switzerland and the US. I'm not sure about NZ and Australia.
- ska 8y ago
  For that matter, the parts of the US that aren't the bay area, Seattle, NYC ... pay a lot less than the parts that are. The tech scene in Canada is much smaller, but pay seems similar to "the rest of US", for the most part. Perhaps a little better if you adjust for health care,etc. but I suspect it's a wash. So is this really a Canada [or wherever] vs. US comparison, or large US tech-hub vs. everywhere else comparison?
stretchwithme 8y ago
I was approached by a German blockchain company last year and the salary range discussed wasn't great. Less than half. And it didn't seem cheaper to live there. My theory of why tech salaries are higher in the US: the US, public and private, borrows trillions of dollars. It consumes more than it produces. Wages are higher. And so are imports and immigration. It's all a consequence of the borrowing. If the US stopped borrowing so much and stopped inflating bubbles and re-inflating them after they collapse, consumption, wages, imports and immigration would fall. If the US started paying down its debt, we'd be producing more than we consume. We'd be exporting more than we import and there'd be more emigrants than immigrants. The growth industries are the most prone to bubbles. It's easier to believe something that is rising will get big than something that is the same or shrinking. So most of the VC capital goes to growth industries. Well, it would in any case, but even more so when there is an unnatural amount of capital. So that is where salaries get bid up the most.
- asmithmd1 8y ago
  >> It consumes more than it produces One of the things the US produces with it's huge military spending is stability. The way the rest of the world pays for that stability is through buying T bills that pay <2% Every empire throughout history has demanded taxes from client countries, the way the US collects those taxes might be unique. All that is a long way of saying: don't worry about all that debt, it will never be paid back.
  - stretchwithme 8y ago
    THere's a big difference being paying a tax and lending somebody money. And an even bigger difference between having cash in the bank and being unable to borrow.
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > My theory of why tech salaries are higher in the US: the US, public and private, borrows trillions of dollars. It consumes more than it produces. Wages are higher. And so are imports and immigration. It's all a consequence of the borrowing. If the US stopped borrowing so much and stopped inflating bubbles and re-inflating them after they collapse, consumption, wages, imports and immigration would fall. Just so everyone is clear, this is a heterodox (fringe) theory that is not accepted by economists, mostly because it flies in the face of both macroeconomic theory and empirical research.
toasterlovin 8y ago
I know a family that moved back to Germany recently. The father is a lawyer. He described their new situation as a 2-3x pay cut once you factor in higher taxes. He also said it was a similar situation for doctors.
- checkyoursudo 8y ago
  Lawyers have higher average salaries in the US, though there are plenty of lawyers in the US who don't make all that much. German billing requirements are often lower. My personal experience was 1150 in Germany and 1650 in the US, while my spouse's was 1300 in Germany and 1900 in the US. If you factor a 1900 hour billing req at $120,000 (new lawyer at a bigger firm or experienced at a smaller firm) with a $20,000 bonus in the US going to maybe an in-house company position for $85,000 (US) and 1300 hours with little or no bonus and maybe 10-15% higher tax rate, then it can sure seem like a 2x or 3x pay cut. But the quality of life is much different. I know plenty of US lawyers who earn 6 figures but work the equivalent of more than 2 full time jobs' worth of hours to do it. My spouse and I are planning to move back to Germany within about 6 months. We each have jobs as lawyers lined up (one definite, one tentative), and we will be taking nowhere near a 2x to 3x pay cut even factoring taxes. Based on changes in the US tax code, I am not even sure that my spouse's salary overall will be less there than here. Mine, I think, will be, but that's partly because of circumstances. So, I'm not saying you're wrong, by any means, but to take a 2x to 3x pay cut moving from the US to Germany working as a lawyer seems to me like there's more involved than only taxes.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    Clearly you’re more knowledgeable about this than me. I was actually surprised when he told me he was taking such a huge cut. I expected the pay to be significantly lower based on what I’ve seen for engineering salaries, but 2-3x is drastic. He is a staff lawyer for a large company, though, so maybe that’s a factor? Anyway, good luck on your transition!
icebraining 8y ago
is this the same in all of Europe? No, in some countries (e.g. southern) the pay cut is much higher.
marvin 8y ago
Norway: Senior software engineers make ~100k in the cities, or maybe a bit more if money is the priority. Starting salaries for software people ~60k. You can make maybe double the senior rate if you're an independent consultant, but then you'll have no job security and be the first out during downsizing. The job market is considered very hot at the moment. We are considered a high-cost market for software talent by European standards, to my understanding. 4-5 weeks holiday, mostly 7.5 hour workday. Free healthcare and social safety net, but total tax burden is 50%-75% of pre-tax income depending on personal consumption patterns. Cost of living is comparable to some medium-size US cities. Average 1-bedroom apartment costs ~300k, very generally speaking. All consumer products are as expensive or more expensive than in US cities, due to 25% VAT.

NikolaNovak 8y ago

>> Compared to North America, software engineers are paid pittance I'm not certain it's North America as a whole. I'm in Toronto, mostly considered the highest paid city in Canada, and I've long decided to not pay attention to Silicon Valley salaries, lest I get depressed :) Whether you search for developer, software engineer, system administrator, SRE or the like, salaries in California seem positively extravagant to those in Toronto (which also has a very high baseline cost of living). Further, I'm pretty sure Mexico salaries are even further depressed (which is the third country composing "North America" :)

bitwize 8y ago

It's probably the same everywhere there's not a myth of programmers as rarefied hacker geniuses homesteading the tech frontier, as well as enough VC funding sloshing around to pay those rockstar ninjas the SV-tier salaries they demand. Most programmers are maintenance tradesmen, and are paid accordingly.

perneto 8y ago

No. The UK has some of the worst tech wages in Europe, esp. on a cost-of-living adjusted basis. Switzerland is on par or better than the US. Other countries fall on a spectrum in between. FYI this isn't limited to Europe; Canada also pays much lower than the US. (The Seattle vs Vancouver comparison is especially striking). Elsewhere, Singapore is comparable to Switzerland and the US. I'm not sure about NZ and Australia.

ska 8y ago
For that matter, the parts of the US that aren't the bay area, Seattle, NYC ... pay a lot less than the parts that are. The tech scene in Canada is much smaller, but pay seems similar to "the rest of US", for the most part. Perhaps a little better if you adjust for health care,etc. but I suspect it's a wash. So is this really a Canada [or wherever] vs. US comparison, or large US tech-hub vs. everywhere else comparison?

stretchwithme 8y ago

I was approached by a German blockchain company last year and the salary range discussed wasn't great. Less than half. And it didn't seem cheaper to live there. My theory of why tech salaries are higher in the US: the US, public and private, borrows trillions of dollars. It consumes more than it produces. Wages are higher. And so are imports and immigration. It's all a consequence of the borrowing. If the US stopped borrowing so much and stopped inflating bubbles and re-inflating them after they collapse, consumption, wages, imports and immigration would fall. If the US started paying down its debt, we'd be producing more than we consume. We'd be exporting more than we import and there'd be more emigrants than immigrants. The growth industries are the most prone to bubbles. It's easier to believe something that is rising will get big than something that is the same or shrinking. So most of the VC capital goes to growth industries. Well, it would in any case, but even more so when there is an unnatural amount of capital. So that is where salaries get bid up the most.

asmithmd1 8y ago
>> It consumes more than it produces One of the things the US produces with it's huge military spending is stability. The way the rest of the world pays for that stability is through buying T bills that pay <2% Every empire throughout history has demanded taxes from client countries, the way the US collects those taxes might be unique. All that is a long way of saying: don't worry about all that debt, it will never be paid back.
- stretchwithme 8y ago
  THere's a big difference being paying a tax and lending somebody money. And an even bigger difference between having cash in the bank and being unable to borrow.
chimeracoder 8y ago
> My theory of why tech salaries are higher in the US: the US, public and private, borrows trillions of dollars. It consumes more than it produces. Wages are higher. And so are imports and immigration. It's all a consequence of the borrowing. If the US stopped borrowing so much and stopped inflating bubbles and re-inflating them after they collapse, consumption, wages, imports and immigration would fall. Just so everyone is clear, this is a heterodox (fringe) theory that is not accepted by economists, mostly because it flies in the face of both macroeconomic theory and empirical research.

toasterlovin 8y ago

I know a family that moved back to Germany recently. The father is a lawyer. He described their new situation as a 2-3x pay cut once you factor in higher taxes. He also said it was a similar situation for doctors.

checkyoursudo 8y ago
Lawyers have higher average salaries in the US, though there are plenty of lawyers in the US who don't make all that much. German billing requirements are often lower. My personal experience was 1150 in Germany and 1650 in the US, while my spouse's was 1300 in Germany and 1900 in the US. If you factor a 1900 hour billing req at $120,000 (new lawyer at a bigger firm or experienced at a smaller firm) with a $20,000 bonus in the US going to maybe an in-house company position for $85,000 (US) and 1300 hours with little or no bonus and maybe 10-15% higher tax rate, then it can sure seem like a 2x or 3x pay cut. But the quality of life is much different. I know plenty of US lawyers who earn 6 figures but work the equivalent of more than 2 full time jobs' worth of hours to do it. My spouse and I are planning to move back to Germany within about 6 months. We each have jobs as lawyers lined up (one definite, one tentative), and we will be taking nowhere near a 2x to 3x pay cut even factoring taxes. Based on changes in the US tax code, I am not even sure that my spouse's salary overall will be less there than here. Mine, I think, will be, but that's partly because of circumstances. So, I'm not saying you're wrong, by any means, but to take a 2x to 3x pay cut moving from the US to Germany working as a lawyer seems to me like there's more involved than only taxes.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  Clearly you’re more knowledgeable about this than me. I was actually surprised when he told me he was taking such a huge cut. I expected the pay to be significantly lower based on what I’ve seen for engineering salaries, but 2-3x is drastic. He is a staff lawyer for a large company, though, so maybe that’s a factor? Anyway, good luck on your transition!

icebraining 8y ago

is this the same in all of Europe? No, in some countries (e.g. southern) the pay cut is much higher.

marvin 8y ago

Norway: Senior software engineers make ~100k in the cities, or maybe a bit more if money is the priority. Starting salaries for software people ~60k. You can make maybe double the senior rate if you're an independent consultant, but then you'll have no job security and be the first out during downsizing. The job market is considered very hot at the moment. We are considered a high-cost market for software talent by European standards, to my understanding. 4-5 weeks holiday, mostly 7.5 hour workday. Free healthcare and social safety net, but total tax burden is 50%-75% of pre-tax income depending on personal consumption patterns. Cost of living is comparable to some medium-size US cities. Average 1-bedroom apartment costs ~300k, very generally speaking. All consumer products are as expensive or more expensive than in US cities, due to 25% VAT.