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If you/your company doesn't have a policy of sending personal feedback please consider doing this at least for junior people. Volunteer your after work time if

by werbel 8y ago

If you/your company doesn't have a policy of sending personal feedback please consider doing this at least for junior people. Volunteer your after work time if needed. Trying to find the first job is extremely stressful process. A junior person has no notion of his worth on the market. Each rejection even if only by a lack of any response ("I'm sorry, I'm afraid we are looking for a bit more experienced person" would suffice) can be like a kick on the face when you're just barely learning to walk and most likely is a burned bridge. I've mentored my girlfriend for 3 years from almost 0 to getting her first job in a company run by a React Native core developer. She had the skill, great attitude, really solid work ethic and very analytical thinking. It'd trust her more with any task than significant number of my past and current senior coworkers. It's hard to prove and no one expects that so naturally her applications had been ignored or rejected. With each one I saw her confidence, self-esteem and enthusiasm crumb. With each positive reply/invitation she was invigorated until the next step came. I'm pretty sure for some the roller-coaster or even worse, being rejected over and over again can be a life defining experience. Any reply is great, personal is even better. If you spend time describing what was missing from the expectations of your company (don't say "You don't know enough", say "We need someone with more knowledge") and sincerely wish the person well you can be sure they'll be grateful, remember you, work on the gaps and who knows... maybe some day become part of your team. Please feel free to reach out if you want some example for inspiration. Edit: Please don't do that against the policy of your company. But if there are no reasons against just ask if you could provide some feedback and resources for the rejection letter.

lixtra 8y ago
Our HR asked me to personally call people and thank them for their declined application. But at the same time requested to not give any feedback because of fear from litigation. Sad world.
- werbel 8y ago
  If someone told me that in my country (or maybe just outside US) I would simply not believe them at first. It might just be the choice of companies I've worked with though. It is sad indeed.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  I would have simply ignored that HR person and given honest but polite feedback.
  - overcast 8y ago
    You're willing to bet your own employment on that? We'd all love to live in a world of butterflies and sugar plums, but risking your own for that is silly don't you think?
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      Absolutely I would. Employees create the culture too. If you cant push back against stupid policies then it is probably good to be pushed out and move on. Plus any environment that has a policy like that is probably a very sterile workplace.
    - jimhi 8y ago
      Off topic, but I find it amusing that we all do in fact live in a world with both butterflies and sugar plums. They are both very cheap and plentiful as well.
- abakker 8y ago
  Managerial CYA, and fear of the potential for litigation are crippling corporations more that I think we'd like to admit. Financial risk is something people seem comfortable accepting, but the specter of unknowable legal risk cause so many management anti patterns and so much passive aggressive behavior is it incredible. As a relatively junior person in management, it is amazing the kind of phantom fears I've been cautioned against. Some of which don't even have any legal precedent at all! I think a lot of it is trotted out as managerial "emergency hypothesis" for why someone doesn't want to do something, and so invents some plausible legal risk to justify their decision. But, honestly, it can't be only that.
  - shimon 8y ago
    For a swath of business responsibilities, this "phantom legal risk" is the Most Available Excuse (TM). We see Most Available Excuses in product feedback ("it's too hard to use" is easier to say than "I didn't see how this would help me accomplish anything I actually care about"), in social engagements ("sorry, too busy this week"), and many other areas. I'm a natural skeptic so I maintain a mental set of Most Available Excuses, and when I hear one I treat it as a dodge, not an answer. Why don't they want to do it? How might I make them more comfortable with me so they can explain how they really feel?
    - tajen 8y ago
      Except when it’s really the reason for not saying. Should I tell my 48 candidates that I didn’t take them because they’re foreigners and I don’t want to do the visa parkour? Is it illegal to select on this criteria? Do I want the antiracism unions on my back? Ok let’s tell them a generic reason. Here again, the legal excuse is the genuine reason for not telling. PS: my first employee is already a foreigner, so don’t lecture me on racism.
    - chongli 8y ago
      Why don't they want to do it? How might I make them more comfortable with me so they can explain how they really feel? I'd be very cautious with this approach. Politeness is an extremely important social defense mechanism for most people. By ignoring the standard polite response and trying to get at the truth you're undermining a person's attempt to save face. By doing so, you're attacking their autonomy and agency as a human being.
cm2187 8y ago
Agree. I remember having applied to McKinsey many years ago as a graduate. I got rejected after the first round of interview, but one of the interviewers would call me to explain their rationale. I was very grateful but I can imagine that it must be painful when the candidate doesn't react well or sees that as an opportunity to put the foot back in the door.
- werbel 8y ago
  I've rejected dozens of people right after face to face coding session of a simple task (third meeting, first technical) explaining the reasons, providing them some guidance on what to tackle next, if I saw hope invite them to try again once they feel they filled the gaps or at least describe the progress and ask if we think it's enough to try and/or what could be next. I've most likely never had a person who left without a handshake with a sincere smile on his/her face and most of them expressed their gratitude. Sometimes you have to reject a person on what you feel is a gut feeling. It's because over time you developed an intuition which is picking small details in a less conscious manner. In the end there are some reasons your intuition is shaped that way not the other and you can find something that presented within the context of your company and expectations will resonate with the candidate and he won't feel like he's been scammed.
- MBCook 8y ago
  Having to give that kind of feedback just sounds horribly draining to me. I know there are people who would accept it. There are people it would really help. Some would already know it and just say ‘thanks’. But the people who argue with you that you’re wrong, or they need another try, or ‘I forgot to mention X’, or ‘you just hate me because Y’... the people who feel hopeless and you’re just ‘confirming’ their fears (even if they applied for something way outside their qualifications) or falling apart over it. I would never want having to deal with that be a big part of my job.
mbesto 8y ago
> If you/your company doesn't have a policy of sending personal feedback please consider doing this at least for junior people. If you want to keep your job, don't follow this advice. Honestly, I would love nothing more than giving junior people (all people in fact) feedback on why they didn't get the job, but people will sue at even the slightest hint of any type of potentially litigious situation. It's even worse when the person is in a position of desperation ("I can't pay rent because I can't find a job...oh what this lawyer is going to take my case on a performance basis...heck ya, let's sue those assholes!"). Most of these cases get settled because no one wants to deal with them and it's easier to just pay the problem to go away, so they're easy wins. Seriously, most good honest HR people WANT to give rejected candidates feedback, but asking them to benevolently provide feedback at the risk of their own job won't earn you many friends.
- werbel 8y ago
  I didn't say to do that against the policy. What I meant was if your company simply doesn't have a habit of doing it just say: "Hey, can I write some feedback and provide some resources to that candidate in your rejection message?". Edit: My intuition is most companies don't provide the feedback because simply they don't see a value in the time spent or simply never really considered that as there are always other things to do than think about people you'll probably never meet again.
  - mbesto 8y ago
    > I didn't say to do that against the policy. And I didn't say anything about this having to do with policies of companies. Regardless of whether you have policies in place or not, doing what you suggested without any counsel is a very dangerous way of losing your job. Companies will make it very easy to fire a person who costs them a lawsuit (and the subsequent negative PR). > My intuition is most companies don't provide the feedback Your intuition is probably right, but it doesn't mean that people who DO want to give feedback should all of the sudden ignore sound advice. Bad HR teams who don't want to give feedback will always use legality as a shield for an excuse, but that doesn't mean that good HR teams who are also taking legal advice are not interested in doing so. As many people have cited in this thread - the long term effects of giving feedback to rejected candidates (they tell their friends, they come back later, etc) are numerous, but the downside risk makes it very difficult for any HR team to make this investment.

by werbel 8y ago

lixtra 8y ago

Our HR asked me to personally call people and thank them for their declined application. But at the same time requested to not give any feedback because of fear from litigation. Sad world.

werbel 8y ago
If someone told me that in my country (or maybe just outside US) I would simply not believe them at first. It might just be the choice of companies I've worked with though. It is sad indeed.
paulie_a 8y ago
I would have simply ignored that HR person and given honest but polite feedback.
- overcast 8y ago
  You're willing to bet your own employment on that? We'd all love to live in a world of butterflies and sugar plums, but risking your own for that is silly don't you think?
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    Absolutely I would. Employees create the culture too. If you cant push back against stupid policies then it is probably good to be pushed out and move on. Plus any environment that has a policy like that is probably a very sterile workplace.
  - jimhi 8y ago
    Off topic, but I find it amusing that we all do in fact live in a world with both butterflies and sugar plums. They are both very cheap and plentiful as well.
abakker 8y ago
Managerial CYA, and fear of the potential for litigation are crippling corporations more that I think we'd like to admit. Financial risk is something people seem comfortable accepting, but the specter of unknowable legal risk cause so many management anti patterns and so much passive aggressive behavior is it incredible. As a relatively junior person in management, it is amazing the kind of phantom fears I've been cautioned against. Some of which don't even have any legal precedent at all! I think a lot of it is trotted out as managerial "emergency hypothesis" for why someone doesn't want to do something, and so invents some plausible legal risk to justify their decision. But, honestly, it can't be only that.
- shimon 8y ago
  For a swath of business responsibilities, this "phantom legal risk" is the Most Available Excuse (TM). We see Most Available Excuses in product feedback ("it's too hard to use" is easier to say than "I didn't see how this would help me accomplish anything I actually care about"), in social engagements ("sorry, too busy this week"), and many other areas. I'm a natural skeptic so I maintain a mental set of Most Available Excuses, and when I hear one I treat it as a dodge, not an answer. Why don't they want to do it? How might I make them more comfortable with me so they can explain how they really feel?
  - tajen 8y ago
    Except when it’s really the reason for not saying. Should I tell my 48 candidates that I didn’t take them because they’re foreigners and I don’t want to do the visa parkour? Is it illegal to select on this criteria? Do I want the antiracism unions on my back? Ok let’s tell them a generic reason. Here again, the legal excuse is the genuine reason for not telling. PS: my first employee is already a foreigner, so don’t lecture me on racism.
  - chongli 8y ago
    Why don't they want to do it? How might I make them more comfortable with me so they can explain how they really feel? I'd be very cautious with this approach. Politeness is an extremely important social defense mechanism for most people. By ignoring the standard polite response and trying to get at the truth you're undermining a person's attempt to save face. By doing so, you're attacking their autonomy and agency as a human being.

cm2187 8y ago

Agree. I remember having applied to McKinsey many years ago as a graduate. I got rejected after the first round of interview, but one of the interviewers would call me to explain their rationale. I was very grateful but I can imagine that it must be painful when the candidate doesn't react well or sees that as an opportunity to put the foot back in the door.

werbel 8y ago
I've rejected dozens of people right after face to face coding session of a simple task (third meeting, first technical) explaining the reasons, providing them some guidance on what to tackle next, if I saw hope invite them to try again once they feel they filled the gaps or at least describe the progress and ask if we think it's enough to try and/or what could be next. I've most likely never had a person who left without a handshake with a sincere smile on his/her face and most of them expressed their gratitude. Sometimes you have to reject a person on what you feel is a gut feeling. It's because over time you developed an intuition which is picking small details in a less conscious manner. In the end there are some reasons your intuition is shaped that way not the other and you can find something that presented within the context of your company and expectations will resonate with the candidate and he won't feel like he's been scammed.
MBCook 8y ago
Having to give that kind of feedback just sounds horribly draining to me. I know there are people who would accept it. There are people it would really help. Some would already know it and just say ‘thanks’. But the people who argue with you that you’re wrong, or they need another try, or ‘I forgot to mention X’, or ‘you just hate me because Y’... the people who feel hopeless and you’re just ‘confirming’ their fears (even if they applied for something way outside their qualifications) or falling apart over it. I would never want having to deal with that be a big part of my job.

mbesto 8y ago

> If you/your company doesn't have a policy of sending personal feedback please consider doing this at least for junior people. If you want to keep your job, don't follow this advice. Honestly, I would love nothing more than giving junior people (all people in fact) feedback on why they didn't get the job, but people will sue at even the slightest hint of any type of potentially litigious situation. It's even worse when the person is in a position of desperation ("I can't pay rent because I can't find a job...oh what this lawyer is going to take my case on a performance basis...heck ya, let's sue those assholes!"). Most of these cases get settled because no one wants to deal with them and it's easier to just pay the problem to go away, so they're easy wins. Seriously, most good honest HR people WANT to give rejected candidates feedback, but asking them to benevolently provide feedback at the risk of their own job won't earn you many friends.

werbel 8y ago
I didn't say to do that against the policy. What I meant was if your company simply doesn't have a habit of doing it just say: "Hey, can I write some feedback and provide some resources to that candidate in your rejection message?". Edit: My intuition is most companies don't provide the feedback because simply they don't see a value in the time spent or simply never really considered that as there are always other things to do than think about people you'll probably never meet again.
- mbesto 8y ago
  > I didn't say to do that against the policy. And I didn't say anything about this having to do with policies of companies. Regardless of whether you have policies in place or not, doing what you suggested without any counsel is a very dangerous way of losing your job. Companies will make it very easy to fire a person who costs them a lawsuit (and the subsequent negative PR). > My intuition is most companies don't provide the feedback Your intuition is probably right, but it doesn't mean that people who DO want to give feedback should all of the sudden ignore sound advice. Bad HR teams who don't want to give feedback will always use legality as a shield for an excuse, but that doesn't mean that good HR teams who are also taking legal advice are not interested in doing so. As many people have cited in this thread - the long term effects of giving feedback to rejected candidates (they tell their friends, they come back later, etc) are numerous, but the downside risk makes it very difficult for any HR team to make this investment.