4 ms·

0.18 works, but compilation takes too long - and apparently that was fixed in 0.19. We've waited for this fix a long time (over a year), but we can't upgrade b

0.18 works, but compilation takes too long - and apparently that was fixed in 0.19. We've waited for this fix a long time (over a year), but we can't upgrade because the only (AFAIK) library that connects to Elixir's Phoenix Channels stopped working. In fact the language (0.19) currently has no websocket support. During this whole year of development, we could not compile the 0.19-dev. It was somewhere closed. We couldn't even see the commits. Pretty sure there's a nice and long post somewhere explaining how "outsiders" would slow down the progress by giving, how dare them, feedback. We could wait a little bit more, but, even though I was deeply in love with elm, the language that made me not dread frontend development anymore, I am now totally uninterested at it, driven away by 1) lack of transparency and 2) total blocking of genuine and constructive user feedback, which feels like censorship - or simply a closed-source, proprietary software. The language is good though. Has some minor flaws, but I believe over time they will get fixed. Though it lacks some powerful features that will never be implemented. But ovoverall, we were able to tackle complexity quite nicely. I guess we - me and my team - just got tired of how it is handled. Oh, and Elm is way too verbose. Pretty sure that 45kloc codebase will be about 15-20kloc in cljs!

throwaway237468 8y ago
> 2) total blocking of genuine and constructive user feedback, which feels like censorship - or simply a closed-source, proprietary software. For those looking for examples, check out the recent post on /r/elm: https://www.reddit.com/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_us/ https://www.reddit.com/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_u... It was locked and deleted from the front page within hours. There are many many more such posts that have been deleted. The only posts allowed on /r/elm are those praising Elm. They always invite the users to discuss this in the Elm Discourse which is not constructive because threads about the "forbidden" topics (Native Code) are either locked or completely deleted within hours.
- dsissitka 8y ago
  You can use Ceddit to see the comments the moderators removed: https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_us/ https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_u...
- skybrian 8y ago
  I'm not that concerned that /r/elm is tightly moderated, given that there are other places to discuss it. (Such as here.)
- rtfeldman 8y ago
  > The only posts allowed on /r/elm are those praising Elm. The Reddit thread you linked shows many posts that are critical of Elm, so this can't be the explanation. As others have noted, you can see what was deleted using this link: https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_us/ https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_u... Removed posts included both praise and criticism. What they have in common is that they broke other rules, e.g. personal attacks.
  - throwaway237468 8y ago
    Thanks, I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether the deleted posts were personal attacks or not. Personally I don't see anything wrong with at least half of them. Why do the moderators invite everyone to discuss on Discourse when you know you'll delete or lock a thread as soon as it's posted?
    - rtfeldman 8y ago
      > Thanks, I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether the deleted posts were personal attacks or not. Personally I don't see anything wrong with at least half of them. Okay, but "personally I would have only deleted half of those posts" is a much different claim than "The only posts allowed on /r/elm are those praising Elm," which is what you said above. You really shouldn't make such serious claims if you don't mean them. > Why do the moderators invite everyone to discuss on Discourse when you know you'll delete or lock a thread as soon as it's posted? I understand that you're trolling me, but just for the record - of course we don't do that.
      - wolco 8y ago
        From what I understood: 10 posts have been deleted. 5 of them are obvious racist/spam. 5 of them are anti elm. All anti Elm threads get deleted regardless of how much spam is also deleted
        rtfeldman 8y ago
- senorsmile 8y ago
  Ah yes. That was the thread I started and was locked. I was and still am confused.
rtfeldman 8y ago
I'm sorry to hear that you are unhappy with Elm, but I hear great things about CLJS and wish you the best with it. I have one comment and one question, if you have time to respond. > During this whole year of development, we could not compile the 0.19-dev. It was somewhere closed. It was on GitHub under elm/compiler on the "dev" branch, which is the branch name Evan uses for in-progress work. Many people compiled and tried it out during this time, and some left comments directly on GitHub. This was not a secret, but I can understand that maybe it felt like one since it was not on the "master" branch. > total blocking of genuine and constructive user feedback, which feels like censorship - or simply a closed-source, proprietary software. I understand that you've moved on, but it would help us out if you could link to an example of genuine and constructive user feedback being blocked like this, so we can learn from it. We've tried to lock topics that have a well-known history of devolving into unconstructive flame wars, but I'm always open to the idea that we might have missed the mark.
- senorsmile 8y ago
  This is a great response. I've only recently started learning Elm (and webdev in general... coming from a systems programming background). I chose ElmConf for the preconf to strange loop this year. Why not learn a new language. I've seen quite a few people with fairly negative things to say about the community. I had my very first thread locked on elm just a couple of days ago. Apparently there were some deleted comments that were not so nice. Unfortunately, by the time I saw my posting locked, that meant it was too late for me to engage in any sort of conversation to figure out exactly what went wrong. Let me be clear; the core of a community are the ones responsible for creating and maintaining the culture of the community, and of course protecting the community members from abuse. I understand this... But I don't understand how stopping conversations that "have a well-known history of devolving into unconstructive flame wars". It seems that is punishing people before they've actually done anything that violates that rules of the community. At least, that's certainly how I feel. Regardless, I'm looking forward to my journey of learning Elm and using it to build some UI's my teams are going to be needing. As I said, I'm attending ElmConf. I look forward to meeting you and others in the Elm community.
  - 8y ago

throwaway237468 8y ago

> 2) total blocking of genuine and constructive user feedback, which feels like censorship - or simply a closed-source, proprietary software. For those looking for examples, check out the recent post on /r/elm: https://www.reddit.com/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_us/ https://www.reddit.com/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_u... It was locked and deleted from the front page within hours. There are many many more such posts that have been deleted. The only posts allowed on /r/elm are those praising Elm. They always invite the users to discuss this in the Elm Discourse which is not constructive because threads about the "forbidden" topics (Native Code) are either locked or completely deleted within hours.

dsissitka 8y ago
You can use Ceddit to see the comments the moderators removed: https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_us/ https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_u...
skybrian 8y ago
I'm not that concerned that /r/elm is tightly moderated, given that there are other places to discuss it. (Such as here.)
rtfeldman 8y ago
> The only posts allowed on /r/elm are those praising Elm. The Reddit thread you linked shows many posts that are critical of Elm, so this can't be the explanation. As others have noted, you can see what was deleted using this link: https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_us/ https://snew.github.io/r/elm/comments/9a0hc6/elm_019_broke_u... Removed posts included both praise and criticism. What they have in common is that they broke other rules, e.g. personal attacks.
- throwaway237468 8y ago
  Thanks, I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether the deleted posts were personal attacks or not. Personally I don't see anything wrong with at least half of them. Why do the moderators invite everyone to discuss on Discourse when you know you'll delete or lock a thread as soon as it's posted?
  - rtfeldman 8y ago
    > Thanks, I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether the deleted posts were personal attacks or not. Personally I don't see anything wrong with at least half of them. Okay, but "personally I would have only deleted half of those posts" is a much different claim than "The only posts allowed on /r/elm are those praising Elm," which is what you said above. You really shouldn't make such serious claims if you don't mean them. > Why do the moderators invite everyone to discuss on Discourse when you know you'll delete or lock a thread as soon as it's posted? I understand that you're trolling me, but just for the record - of course we don't do that.
    - wolco 8y ago
      From what I understood: 10 posts have been deleted. 5 of them are obvious racist/spam. 5 of them are anti elm. All anti Elm threads get deleted regardless of how much spam is also deleted
      - rtfeldman 8y ago
senorsmile 8y ago
Ah yes. That was the thread I started and was locked. I was and still am confused.

rtfeldman 8y ago

I'm sorry to hear that you are unhappy with Elm, but I hear great things about CLJS and wish you the best with it. I have one comment and one question, if you have time to respond. > During this whole year of development, we could not compile the 0.19-dev. It was somewhere closed. It was on GitHub under elm/compiler on the "dev" branch, which is the branch name Evan uses for in-progress work. Many people compiled and tried it out during this time, and some left comments directly on GitHub. This was not a secret, but I can understand that maybe it felt like one since it was not on the "master" branch. > total blocking of genuine and constructive user feedback, which feels like censorship - or simply a closed-source, proprietary software. I understand that you've moved on, but it would help us out if you could link to an example of genuine and constructive user feedback being blocked like this, so we can learn from it. We've tried to lock topics that have a well-known history of devolving into unconstructive flame wars, but I'm always open to the idea that we might have missed the mark.

senorsmile 8y ago
This is a great response. I've only recently started learning Elm (and webdev in general... coming from a systems programming background). I chose ElmConf for the preconf to strange loop this year. Why not learn a new language. I've seen quite a few people with fairly negative things to say about the community. I had my very first thread locked on elm just a couple of days ago. Apparently there were some deleted comments that were not so nice. Unfortunately, by the time I saw my posting locked, that meant it was too late for me to engage in any sort of conversation to figure out exactly what went wrong. Let me be clear; the core of a community are the ones responsible for creating and maintaining the culture of the community, and of course protecting the community members from abuse. I understand this... But I don't understand how stopping conversations that "have a well-known history of devolving into unconstructive flame wars". It seems that is punishing people before they've actually done anything that violates that rules of the community. At least, that's certainly how I feel. Regardless, I'm looking forward to my journey of learning Elm and using it to build some UI's my teams are going to be needing. As I said, I'm attending ElmConf. I look forward to meeting you and others in the Elm community.
- 8y ago