6 ms·

Does $60,000 a year make you middle-class or wealthy on Planet Earth?

39 points by wjossey 8y ago

plasticchris 8y ago
I don't know, but it makes you impoverished in silicon valley. It's hard to even support a family on that in the Midwest (been there).
- IMTDb 8y ago
  When comparing salaries I think in terms of "disposable income / hour". That is: how much $ worked hour you have after you pay taxes, retirement, average rent in the location, medical insurance, basic food, small car and gas. At least it makes europe/US and intra US comparison much simpler.
- deleted 8y ago
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anoncoward111 8y ago
The largest monthly expense for anyone making $60,000 a year is most likely going to be rent, unless you are living in a car or a tent and showering at the gym like I was. For that reason, $60,000 could either be a ton of money ($4,000 a month in post tax wealth accumulation is really good), or very little at all. There are still some Europeans and plenty of Asians and Africans making less than $250 a month. If you are spending all of your income, you aren't terribly different from them in the end.
- ianai 8y ago
  It blows my mind how expensive real estate is. Rent shouldn’t be anywhere near the cost of a mortgage and yet it is, and it always goes up almost completely without recourse.
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    There are countless millions of people who are qualified and even have the capital required to finance/build a basic, durable shelter that is nice enough to have guests spend the night in. The materials, when purchased from Home Depot, would cost $20,000 and require maybe $7,000 worth of labor to construct. When you consider that most suburban land about 1hr outside city by car can go for even just $20,000, it seems pretty ludicrous to pay $400,000 for something that can be had for $50,000. The ONE thing stopping this from being a reality is the town government/mortgage lender junta. They've basically made it illegal in most metropolitan areas to purchase anything other than a big, rotting house.
    - gizmo686 8y ago
      >When you consider that most suburban land about 1hr outside city by car can go for even just $20,000 Isn't this the point. Most people don't want to live 1hr away, so are forced into more expensive land.
      - anoncoward111 8y ago
        1hr is "close" by NY standards now.
        perl4ever 8y ago
        1 hour is 50 miles in my part of NY.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        It's 7 miles from the Outer Sunset to the Embarcadero in SF.
        mmt 8y ago
        This corresponds, IIUC, to a 45-minute minimum ride on public transit, not counting waiting and walking times. I'm not sure if driving is any faster, but maybe not, when parking and walking (if in-building parking is unavailable or prohibitively expensive). That means it could still be a full hour away. That intra-SF travel by transit motor vehicle could be slower than coming from outside the city could be a quirk specific to SF, something I mentioned in another thread [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17839636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17839636
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  > The largest monthly expense for anyone making $60,000 a year is most likely going to be rent, unless you are living in a car or a tent and showering at the gym like I was. Even the most expensive markets there are a huge range of options. Today in NYC you'd be hard pressed to find your own private place for $1000/month. That wasn't true as recently as 5-6 years ago, but it is now. On the other hand you can find a very decent place for $1500/month. You won't be in Manhattan or the cool parts of Brooklyn, but you will be safe and comfortable. $1500/month is still only 30% of gross on $60,000/year which leaves plenty of disposable income even in high tax NYC. Maybe SF is worse, but if so that's the only place in the whole rest of the country that's worse. The issue becomes when you "need" more bedrooms. Or insist on certain neighborhoods.
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    I'll take your analogy a step further. You can have a room in my apartment 1hr east of Penn Station for $650 if I can trust you. $650 is about a week's pay for me, so I make less than $60,000 for sure. But food and transport are things, and so is the occasional medical care or movie. I live pretty frugally and can typically save $1,000 per month. But in this area, inflation and rising cost of living will virtually guarantee it's a meaningless amount 30 years from now.
- gammateam 8y ago
  my favorite part about finance and wealth accumulation is that the most sophisticated thing an enlightened person in the general public is going to say is something about relative standard of living and maybe inflation. so it reaffirms an actual holistic challenge to the financial ecosystem is a long ways off and basically never going to happen.
derekp7 8y ago
When articles like this give an income number, is that after or before taxes? If that is a pre-tax number then how can it account for varying tax situations (single vs married, deductibles, etc.) If it is after tax income, that number seems somewhat high.
modells 8y ago
Suggestion for anyone in this bracket and unmarried: once a year, rent a massive coastal villa in a South American country on the cheap ($1.5-3k/week) either alone or with 1-2 cool (emphasize cool) friends. I'll let your imagination run wild as to what follows. Now up that a bit as your imagination wasn't wild enough. Have fun, be safe. ProTip: Use VRBO or other vacation rental sites rather than airbnb.
- pacomerh 8y ago
  Can you expand on why VRBO rather than Airbnb?
- feel_the_need 8y ago
  South America is huge. Can you recommend some cities / countries where you can do this?
  - Markoff 8y ago
    you could rent something similar for that amount in Indonesia for a year (or Thailand for half year) instead of week
Markoff 8y ago
I think only american could ask this question since even in Europe it's obviously on wealthier part of middle class and it's common knowledge Europe has one of the highest living standards in world. so even if you live in some rich country like Singapore you will be probably aware of living conditions in neighbouring Malaysia or Indonesia to not ask such stupid question as it's headline, though one would think Americans have some knowledge about mexico to not ask it either

39 points by wjossey 8y ago

I don't know, but it makes you impoverished in silicon valley. It's hard to even support a family on that in the Midwest (been there).

IMTDb 8y ago
When comparing salaries I think in terms of "disposable income / hour". That is: how much $ worked hour you have after you pay taxes, retirement, average rent in the location, medical insurance, basic food, small car and gas. At least it makes europe/US and intra US comparison much simpler.
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anoncoward111 8y ago

The largest monthly expense for anyone making $60,000 a year is most likely going to be rent, unless you are living in a car or a tent and showering at the gym like I was. For that reason, $60,000 could either be a ton of money ($4,000 a month in post tax wealth accumulation is really good), or very little at all. There are still some Europeans and plenty of Asians and Africans making less than $250 a month. If you are spending all of your income, you aren't terribly different from them in the end.

ianai 8y ago
It blows my mind how expensive real estate is. Rent shouldn’t be anywhere near the cost of a mortgage and yet it is, and it always goes up almost completely without recourse.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  There are countless millions of people who are qualified and even have the capital required to finance/build a basic, durable shelter that is nice enough to have guests spend the night in. The materials, when purchased from Home Depot, would cost $20,000 and require maybe $7,000 worth of labor to construct. When you consider that most suburban land about 1hr outside city by car can go for even just $20,000, it seems pretty ludicrous to pay $400,000 for something that can be had for $50,000. The ONE thing stopping this from being a reality is the town government/mortgage lender junta. They've basically made it illegal in most metropolitan areas to purchase anything other than a big, rotting house.
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    >When you consider that most suburban land about 1hr outside city by car can go for even just $20,000 Isn't this the point. Most people don't want to live 1hr away, so are forced into more expensive land.
    - anoncoward111 8y ago
      1hr is "close" by NY standards now.
      - perl4ever 8y ago
        1 hour is 50 miles in my part of NY.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        It's 7 miles from the Outer Sunset to the Embarcadero in SF.
        mmt 8y ago
        This corresponds, IIUC, to a 45-minute minimum ride on public transit, not counting waiting and walking times. I'm not sure if driving is any faster, but maybe not, when parking and walking (if in-building parking is unavailable or prohibitively expensive). That means it could still be a full hour away. That intra-SF travel by transit motor vehicle could be slower than coming from outside the city could be a quirk specific to SF, something I mentioned in another thread [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17839636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17839636
bradleyjg 8y ago
> The largest monthly expense for anyone making $60,000 a year is most likely going to be rent, unless you are living in a car or a tent and showering at the gym like I was. Even the most expensive markets there are a huge range of options. Today in NYC you'd be hard pressed to find your own private place for $1000/month. That wasn't true as recently as 5-6 years ago, but it is now. On the other hand you can find a very decent place for $1500/month. You won't be in Manhattan or the cool parts of Brooklyn, but you will be safe and comfortable. $1500/month is still only 30% of gross on $60,000/year which leaves plenty of disposable income even in high tax NYC. Maybe SF is worse, but if so that's the only place in the whole rest of the country that's worse. The issue becomes when you "need" more bedrooms. Or insist on certain neighborhoods.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  I'll take your analogy a step further. You can have a room in my apartment 1hr east of Penn Station for $650 if I can trust you. $650 is about a week's pay for me, so I make less than $60,000 for sure. But food and transport are things, and so is the occasional medical care or movie. I live pretty frugally and can typically save $1,000 per month. But in this area, inflation and rising cost of living will virtually guarantee it's a meaningless amount 30 years from now.
gammateam 8y ago
my favorite part about finance and wealth accumulation is that the most sophisticated thing an enlightened person in the general public is going to say is something about relative standard of living and maybe inflation. so it reaffirms an actual holistic challenge to the financial ecosystem is a long ways off and basically never going to happen.

derekp7 8y ago

When articles like this give an income number, is that after or before taxes? If that is a pre-tax number then how can it account for varying tax situations (single vs married, deductibles, etc.) If it is after tax income, that number seems somewhat high.

modells 8y ago

Suggestion for anyone in this bracket and unmarried: once a year, rent a massive coastal villa in a South American country on the cheap ($1.5-3k/week) either alone or with 1-2 cool (emphasize cool) friends. I'll let your imagination run wild as to what follows. Now up that a bit as your imagination wasn't wild enough. Have fun, be safe. ProTip: Use VRBO or other vacation rental sites rather than airbnb.

pacomerh 8y ago
Can you expand on why VRBO rather than Airbnb?
feel_the_need 8y ago
South America is huge. Can you recommend some cities / countries where you can do this?
- Markoff 8y ago
  you could rent something similar for that amount in Indonesia for a year (or Thailand for half year) instead of week

Markoff 8y ago

I think only american could ask this question since even in Europe it's obviously on wealthier part of middle class and it's common knowledge Europe has one of the highest living standards in world. so even if you live in some rich country like Singapore you will be probably aware of living conditions in neighbouring Malaysia or Indonesia to not ask such stupid question as it's headline, though one would think Americans have some knowledge about mexico to not ask it either