4 ms·

This is fairly shallow. It doesn't really explain why surveillance and manipulation became the dominant business models of the Internet. I think the culprit is

by api 8y ago

This is fairly shallow. It doesn't really explain why surveillance and manipulation became the dominant business models of the Internet. I think the culprit is "free." Everything has to be "free." As a result, some indirect means must be found to pay for it. The most convenient model is to turn it around and make the user the product. Use free services to attract users, then surveil and manipulate those users for paying customers -- advertisers, governments, intelligence agencies, think tanks, etc.

mcphage 8y ago
> I think the culprit is "free." Everything has to be "free." As a result, some indirect means must be found to pay for it. That raises an interesting point... discussion about "free" often distinguishes free-as-in-beer vs free-as-in-speech, but maybe we were mistaken in thinking that it was ever not going to be about money.
- smallnamespace 8y ago
  It's not about money, it's about the allocation of scarce resources. The point is that there is always some resource that is a limiting factor, be it time, labor, energy, natural resources, land, or other inputs. Imagine a world where there is no money and no price mechanism, e.g. the Star Trek economy. Society still needs to collectively implement a mechanism that determines what should people do today, and how should we make sure they are able to do it? I'm sure in TNG you can get enough replicator credits to eat like a king, but not everyone gets a starship or prime New Orleans real estate [1] because there's still not enough for everyone. In fact, prices are often useful as an internal planning mechanism even when there is no market or money changing hands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_price#Constrained_optimisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_price#Constrained_optim... This is exactly what Soviet central planners did: try to set 'reasonable' prices for every single good in their economy while also setting input and output targets for every single piece of fixed capital and organization in the USSR. 'Free as in beer' is an ideology that states that 'prices of particular goods and services ought to always be zero'. Why would we expect that to conform to the reality of how valuable a service really is to people, especially as the cost to produce those particular things are always changing? [1] http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Sisko%27s_Creole_Kitchen http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Sisko%27s_Creole_Kitchen
  - XorNot 8y ago
    TNG never really explored the dynamics of the post-scarcity society - the setting of the show is really to explicitly avoid having to do that by putting the characters in a context where scarcity exists (a starship on the frontier).
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
topmonk 8y ago
I think the “customer being the product” happens regardless. Take a look at how credit card agencies sell people's purchase habits, or grocery store loyalty cards that do the same. It's naive to think that not every economic niche won't be exploited regardless of the existence of another one.
ukyrgf 8y ago
"Free" worked for me 10-20 years ago. There was the old "if you aren't paying for it, then you are the product" adage. Now, even if you pay, you are being sold.
- disqard 8y ago
  Fair point, but there are some exceptions. For instance, the Atlantic's Masthead subscription gives you ad-free access to their audio podcasts. Overall, I agree with you: once I am a paying subscriber of NYT (say), why should I be served the same ads as a non-subscriber viewing the same article in an incognito window?
egypturnash 8y ago
It’s kind of funny. I run a Mastodon instance. I keep it small so I don’t have to spend more than about twenty bucks a month to keep it running. Pocket change, really. And yet my users regularly poke me to set up a Patreon, so they can help me cover the cost for it. Hell, I paid for Livejournal back in the day, before it turned into a thing that had to expand user numbers at all costs, and had to try and pay the rent of multiple Bay Area employees, and started putting in ads.
boomboomsubban 8y ago
Why did propaganda become the dominant model for the printing press? Controlling information has been a main objective of the ruling class forever, the issue isn't with the Internet.
amanaplanacanal 8y ago
Even in the days of the print media, the user was the product. The real money wasn't in subscription prices, it was in advertising. I don't think that much has changed.

by api 8y ago

mcphage 8y ago

> I think the culprit is "free." Everything has to be "free." As a result, some indirect means must be found to pay for it. That raises an interesting point... discussion about "free" often distinguishes free-as-in-beer vs free-as-in-speech, but maybe we were mistaken in thinking that it was ever not going to be about money.

smallnamespace 8y ago
It's not about money, it's about the allocation of scarce resources. The point is that there is always some resource that is a limiting factor, be it time, labor, energy, natural resources, land, or other inputs. Imagine a world where there is no money and no price mechanism, e.g. the Star Trek economy. Society still needs to collectively implement a mechanism that determines what should people do today, and how should we make sure they are able to do it? I'm sure in TNG you can get enough replicator credits to eat like a king, but not everyone gets a starship or prime New Orleans real estate [1] because there's still not enough for everyone. In fact, prices are often useful as an internal planning mechanism even when there is no market or money changing hands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_price#Constrained_optimisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_price#Constrained_optim... This is exactly what Soviet central planners did: try to set 'reasonable' prices for every single good in their economy while also setting input and output targets for every single piece of fixed capital and organization in the USSR. 'Free as in beer' is an ideology that states that 'prices of particular goods and services ought to always be zero'. Why would we expect that to conform to the reality of how valuable a service really is to people, especially as the cost to produce those particular things are always changing? [1] http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Sisko%27s_Creole_Kitchen http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Sisko%27s_Creole_Kitchen
- XorNot 8y ago
  TNG never really explored the dynamics of the post-scarcity society - the setting of the show is really to explicitly avoid having to do that by putting the characters in a context where scarcity exists (a starship on the frontier).
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

topmonk 8y ago

I think the “customer being the product” happens regardless. Take a look at how credit card agencies sell people's purchase habits, or grocery store loyalty cards that do the same. It's naive to think that not every economic niche won't be exploited regardless of the existence of another one.

ukyrgf 8y ago

"Free" worked for me 10-20 years ago. There was the old "if you aren't paying for it, then you are the product" adage. Now, even if you pay, you are being sold.

disqard 8y ago
Fair point, but there are some exceptions. For instance, the Atlantic's Masthead subscription gives you ad-free access to their audio podcasts. Overall, I agree with you: once I am a paying subscriber of NYT (say), why should I be served the same ads as a non-subscriber viewing the same article in an incognito window?

egypturnash 8y ago

It’s kind of funny. I run a Mastodon instance. I keep it small so I don’t have to spend more than about twenty bucks a month to keep it running. Pocket change, really. And yet my users regularly poke me to set up a Patreon, so they can help me cover the cost for it. Hell, I paid for Livejournal back in the day, before it turned into a thing that had to expand user numbers at all costs, and had to try and pay the rent of multiple Bay Area employees, and started putting in ads.

boomboomsubban 8y ago

Why did propaganda become the dominant model for the printing press? Controlling information has been a main objective of the ruling class forever, the issue isn't with the Internet.

amanaplanacanal 8y ago

Even in the days of the print media, the user was the product. The real money wasn't in subscription prices, it was in advertising. I don't think that much has changed.