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My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)
- themoat 8y agoI know the author wised up and moved on, but I would rather work construction for the rest of my life than be a programmer and live like this. I worked for a startup for a couple of years that really got it right. The CTO really wanted a certain lead developer as his first hire (they had previously worked together) and the lead dev said (paraphrased, of course) "Nope. Not interested in working more than 40 hours per week. Not interested in startup culture. Not interested in grueling deadlines. I like taking long breaks in the middle of the day to go for a run. I come in early, and I get home to my family early." They gave in to every one of his demands and from my understanding, in the 3 or 4 years since he took the job, devs have only worked longer than a 40 hour week maybe 5 times total. That dev team has consistently deployed great feature after another at an incredible rate. I have since moved on but I don't think I'll ever find a place that respected their workers like they did. I don't have a point to that story, no takeaways, no morals, no snappy advice or anything. But paired with my current not as good job, and this article from my worst nightmares, it's made me a bit nostalgic for that wonderful time in my life where I worked for a great place that trusted that happy employees are good employees.
- RickJWagner 8y agoGood story. Thanks for sharing.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoIt seems to me that the moral of the story is that the work is done by people, so taking care of your people actually matters. And it is basically contained in this line: That dev team has consistently deployed great feature after another at an incredible rate. I very much appreciate you leaving this comment.
- Matumio 8y agoWork output is one thing, but it cannot be the only morale of this story. Surely there is also some intrinsic value in creating a friendly workplace, independent of economical success. It's also a story about how to realize those values.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoSure, as an employee, all that stuff matters. But I'm not going to try to convince an employer that they should care about such things out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm perfectly happy to argue that an employer should care about such things because it enhances the bottom line for the business. When I started my corporate job, I met the only remaining living founder of the three brothers that started the company. He said something about wanting the company to be good to me and take care of me so I would take care of it. One of the other new hires was from California. She was surprised at how warm this Southern gentleman was. She was used to the coldness and callousness of the California social climate in business circles. I was born and raised in the Southern city where this comment was founded. I think people not looking out for their people are fools cutting their own throats. You don't have to care about me in a "love thy neighbor" sort of way. But you should care that running me ragged if I work for you fundamentally harms your business.
- sasaf5 8y agoOh, the often neglected powers of rested brains!
- hamandcheese 8y agoWhy can’t you go back? Did you move?
- themoat 8y agoHaha, I could go back, except for maybe my pride. I only left for what I thought was a good opportunity personally. (still up for debate on whether it was or not). I don't hate my current job, but my current employer has reached out to most devs on my old team and I've made sure to contact them and explain that it's a huge mistake to leave. Life is still good. My schedule is still fantastic, but I am missing that certain something where I felt like my personal goals were very closely aligned with my company's goals. I still might go crawling back and beg for my job back sometime though.
- bonniemuffin 8y agoWe call it a "boomerang" where I work, and it's not a sign of failure-- it's something we celebrate. We get a lot of boomerangs who leave for a year or two and then come back to work with us again. It's the highest form of flattery when they like us so much they come back. :)
- aplummer 8y agoIn my old company (consulting), they actually like it a lot. People leave and then return with new experience and a few things that can be learned from.
- enraged_camel 8y agoMy previous company hated it. The leaders perceived those who leave as disloyal and always felt deeply insulted whenever someone left. For instance, I run into them at conferences every year and they don’t even acknowledge my presence, even though I was on really good terms with them when I worked there. It’s pretty bizarre.
- paulie_a 8y ago
- hobls 8y agoOh no. I hope you find another time in your life where you’re treated as well as you were then.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mmt 8y agoI got two takeaways: The early hires (especially engineer #1) can have a huge influence on the culture. I think that's important to note both for founders and for prospective early employees. > devs have only worked longer than a 40 hour week maybe 5 times total. > That dev team has consistently deployed great feature after another at an incredible rate. This second takeaway, that being disciplined about working hours is a boon to productivity, is generally supported by what few studies [1] have been done on productivity versus working hours. [1] I believe most of, especially the early ones, have specifically studied industrial/factory output, including an early-1900s experiment showing that reducing working days from 9 hours to 8 hours actually increased output.
- danbolt 8y agoI think the restriction on working hours ensures that management is more conscious about spent labour too. We have this (often true) stereotype of bad leads wanting employees to overwork and I would bet that’s because they assume that the team can “passionately” do more. When I’ve seen good projects complete on time, I remember seeing my producer comb the milestone tasks asking herself “can this deliver value and be feasible”, rather than making a marathon for other people to run.
- glangdale 8y agoThis is a good way to work. I am hugely skeptical about places that have a culture of crazy long work weeks from a pure productivity standpoint. When we 'rebooted' Sensory Networks (our regex company a while back) we held to a 'regular hours only' policy and I think we did pretty well with it. We did get to a decent acquisition (esp. for a niche product) and importantly we were able to keep progressing the product technically. I suspect that 60-70 hour work weeks lead to a lot of technical debt that will require more 60-70 hour work weeks to pay back.
- mmt 8y ago> will require more 60-70 hour work weeks to pay back. Except if 60-70 hour workweeks created the debt in the first place, subsequent ones can be expected to create even more, rather than (net) paying any back. Perhaps a better remedy would be 1.5x-1.75x as many 40 hour workweeks. If so, that could easily be more years than the average engineer's tenure, which can add its own challenge.
- noir_lord 8y agoIf you want the 40 hours and treat like a human not a code producing robot I found the best way is to work as a techie for a none-tech company. I handle the internal ERP and related software (android terminals, sandblast machines etc) I get to work on varied problems in multiple languages where my contribution is immediately visible and then go home at 5pm. It's glorious, I'll give up programming as a career rather than go back to 60hr+ weeks.
- marmaduke 8y agoThis is a good point. Not even tech but being one of few fluent programmers is a good position.
- coolaliasbro 8y agoCompletely agree. Just understanding paradigms and being willing/able to read documentation goes a long way at non-tech companies.
- a_imho 8y agoWhat is so hard about saying no to overtime? Just turn off the computer and go home.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sleepychu 8y agoSocial pressure is a pretty big motivator for most people. I find that customers are the big driver, if they're willing to wait (accept delays, don't bring the deadline in when it's been agreed) then I really feel no pressure at all to work overtime. When the customer is screaming down the phone at your grand-boss that you've failed to deliver and they have very little context for that and ask you if you can work extra to make them happy you're in an awkward position.
- mason55 8y agoThe common thread is your boss, not your customer. A good boss is worth everything. A good boss would push back on unreasonable customer demands and spend time figuring out what went wrong. A good boss will help prevent it from going wrong the next time. A good boss will help you figure out what needs to be done right now and what can be scheduled so it’s not just a constant “P1 emergency”
- AndyNemmity 8y agoIf you are the sole person responsible for the main feature of a startup, and it isn't completed, you know that the only thing you can do is put every hour you have into it to try and make it work. That is what is so hard.
- mmt 8y ago> you know that the only thing you can do is put every hour you have into it to try and make it work This, of course, illustrates, why it's difficult: when one knows something that happens to be false. That's why it's important to have these kinds of discussions here, even they appear to surface concepts that may seem obvious to some people. To other people, it's important to read/hear that perspective, lest "tunnel vision" or an "echo chamber" takes hold.
- joering2 8y agoWas that Silicon Valley? I learnt certain places have certain “culture” of work. I worked in Connecticut as a programmer for many years and it actually compares with your description. Only some people wanted to stay longer. We had CEO coming out of his office around 5:10 and yelling “router down in two” thats how much time it took him to get to closet next to front door to turn internet off. Nobody had right to turn it back on. Same in the am. You cam before boss that always showed up 9:05, you had no net to work on. Then I moved on to New York city and noone came after 8am or left before 9pm. Was nightmare. CTO told me once: “if you have family to attend to, don’t work here”.
- AndyNemmity 8y agoI got my break working for a startup that went big, but without any equity. The CEO asked me to work on his next startup, and I did so. I worked every hour, of every day for over a year to try and make things successful. It was never enough, and I felt like a failure regularly. It destroyed my personal life, and I still feel like there are ramifications from it. Finally they questioned the hours I was billing, from the minor level of pay + equity, they didn't feel the output was enough. I quit on that point, having given so much, and then to have to defend myself. It was a disaster, that in some small part ruined my life. I mean, I'm fine. Life is great, but it took some measure of life out of me. They ask me to come back regularly, and I always say no. They have twice said they'd give me more equity with no strings attached just because of the work I had done, and then never said anything about it again. I have no idea if the equity will ever amount to anything, but I learned my lesson. It just isn't worth it, under any respect. Sacrificing for some dream that isn't in your hands is a fools errand. They can talk about whatever millions they want to from your equity. It can never make up for the destructive aspects you do to yourself to obtain it.
- troupe 8y ago> Finally they questioned the hours I was billing So you were getting an hourly rate--not salary?
- s_m_t 8y agoHmm, strange way to live...
- 0x8BADF00D 8y agoWas life too hard for this special snowflake? Read more to find out.
- sctb 8y agoPlease don't post like this. We want to learn something! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- phantom784 8y agoSeems crazy to live like that for $1200/month when you could find a few roommates and get 4 people in a 2 bedroom for about the same. Still tight, but it beats 12 people in a 2 bedroom for sure!
- jurassic 8y agoFolks doing bootcamps often are doing it on a shoestring budget. They can't scrape together significant deposits and proof of income needed to rent a more legit place.
- Scoundreller 8y agoAnd a bootcamper might need a place for 14 weeks. Hard to get a lease for that length of time. Though I don't know why people need to live in an expensive city for a bootcamp.
- indecisive_user 8y agoI imagine the best boot camps are in tech hubs, which are usually expensive cities to live in.
- dman 8y agoIs this fairly common in the valley?
- gumby 8y agoI don't think so; it seems more of a San Francisco thing. If nothing else, it's more shared "house"ing than "apartment"ing. The hours are long down here though too. But IMHO the companies are more interesting.
- skellera 8y agoThey have them in Seattle as well. They come up when looking for a place or Airbnb.
- akavi 8y ago...I don't think so? Or at least, it's totally alien to me as someone who's spent ~6 years in SF tech. 1,200 $/mo is more than enough to get a room to yourself in the nice neighborhoods; admittedly, you'll need to put in the time on craigslist to find sublets, "interview" with potential roommates, etc. I can see if you're desperate to find a place in a hurry, an airBnB like this might make sense for a month, but more than that seems insane. Getting scammed by false promises of equity riches is definitely a thing that happens to people, but it's far from the norm. Again, take a job like that if you need something right away, but spend your time hunting for something better, because the vast majority of programming jobs in SF are nothing like this.
- mmt 8y ago> 1,200 $/mo is more than enough to get a room to yourself in the nice neighborhoods One of the difficulties potential renters can run into, especially ones from out of town, is that no matter how nice the neighborhood is from a residential standpoint, it might be much less nice from a commuting standpoint (be it work or the coding bootcamp). Whenever I try it, I find public transit within SF to be remarkably time-consuming, even to travel short distances. That means living outside the city can be both cheaper and result in a shorter (time, not distance) commute, which might seem counter-intuitive.
- floren 8y agoSounds like a New York tenement circa 1900 except at least those were cheap.
- DoritoChef 8y agoPosts like these really continue drive home the message of "Silicon Valley is just a shell of what it used to be. Only go there for the sake of relocation or with a job offer in hand." There's nothing left for the dreamers or hopefuls in SV who have nothing to run on but just that--hopes and dreams. It just makes so much more sense to take a pay cut and swing for the fences in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, or Phoenix. Hell, I'll still throw in Boston and Seattle because they're still THAT much cheaper than anywhere in SV.
- lovehashbrowns 8y agoAustin is a great place to do this type of homerun attempt without experience. There are some nice start up jobs there, and the costs are way lower. I went from Austin - > sf and while I'm still in the career-building phase here in sf, it's not so desperate that I am living in a closet. So I was lucky that I came from Austin first with some experience already. But this is a really bad city to build something out of nothing. The costs are stupid, even when you see a rent like "only $1,200 a month!" it's likely that the deposit is ridiculous too. The transportation is great, but it depends on where you are in the city. I luckily get on the bus at the start of its route so I always get a seat, but if I was a few blocks down when the bus was already packed like sardines, I'd hate it. Train is the same. You have to go out so far to be comfortable that your commute goes into the hours mark. SV is just insane for someone that doesn't already have an established career. I know I would have burned out already if I didn't have the experience from Austin already.
- jjjensen90 8y agoPhoenix is a good option if you don't mind the summers. The salaries are very good for the cost of living (salaries seem to be increased because of the proximity to California, I even somewhat frequently see startup jobs in SV with lower salaries than an equivalent position in PHX with some negotiation). There is a good mix of startups, mid-sized companies, and juggernauts like Amazon, Amex, PayPal, GM, etc. Importantly in my opinion, you can buy a nice house on middle class income in Phoenix still, or rent for very cheap, and the traffic is pretty good. You'll be car dependent in most cases but it is RADICALLY cheaper than Silicon Valley.
- 8y ago
- VectorLock 8y agoI got out when this kind of situation became pervasive in SF. The old enthusiasm and love for tech were ground out into this kind of boring dystopia that resides there now. Its immensely sad, SF used to be such a vibrant and energetic place.
- gumby 8y agoThis part struck me as so sad: > Programming for me was never supposed to be more than a means to an end Programming is one of my favorite things to do and I do it even when my job is something else. Why do it if you don't like it? No wonder it seemed hopeless.
- indecisive_user 8y ago>Why do it if you don't like it? Uhh, because it pays well, has good job security and benefits, doesn't require multiple degrees, is respected socially, isn't physically intensive, etc. etc. Most all of my non-programmer friends don't really like their jobs all that much, so if you're not passionate about anything else, my question is why not go into software development?
- gumby 8y agoThen go write back end code for Allstate. (I don't mean any insult to Allstate nor their staff; simply that it'll be a reliable, well paying 9-5). The things the author complains about (low pay, long hours, uncertain future) are positive things for me, which is why I chose the path I did. It usually includes working with really interesting people. I'm glad he abandoned it as it sounds like he would not enjoy it. There's no evidence from his article that, say, the Pinterest fellow or the people who'd come home and open their laptops are actually unhappy, except the author himself and the "mid-30s" person in the bunk above him.
- anothergoogler 8y agoAllstate isn't a government jobs program, and they have hiring requirements too.
- gumby 8y agoIt's just synecdoche.
- indecisive_user 8y ago
- physcab 8y agoThis really is only one small segment of the programming population. I really hate superficial shit like this that paints tech workers in a bad light bc most have ordinary jobs and live ordinary lives and aren’t social recluses. I work typical 9-5, wife and kids. We go grocery shopping and make dinner every night together. We live very modestly and we have lots of non-tech friends and family. It’s literaly nothing special.
- thanatropism 8y agoWhat kind of software do you work on?
- ybtrewa 8y agoWhat part of the country do you work in? I think this is specific to the bay area. It could be different in Austin or Chicago or even NY. If you haven't experienced the startup life in the bay area you shouldn't knock his experience.
- cryptozeus 8y agoAgree with you. I work in bay area...normal hours 40-50 per week. May be avg pay but way higher quality life.
- bor0 8y agoI also have a job, wife, kids, house, non-tech friends. However, at one point in my life I lived a very "closed" life, sitting in my room by myself and self-learning stuff (hacking Delphi/Pascal, then some Assembly x86, then C). It was definitely fun at the time.
- jypepin 8y agoThis requires more upvotes. I can't believe so many people in this thread are agreeing with the view that is painted in this article as the majority. I went to SF without money for a bootcamp, I did not experience this. The author seems to just have done it without preparing or thinking much. First, if you are joining a bootcamp, there are other people in your cohort with whom you can find support, roommates, etc (that's what I did). 2nd, even if you end up in such a bad situation, you KNOW it's for only 12 weeks. And very intense 12 weeks anyway, so really, all you need your room for is sleeping. 3rd, you socialise with other students and teachers in that bootcamp. Can't you see that most of them are NOT like the nerdy roommates he describes? 4th I have a few friends who work at Pinterest... yes _that_ Pinterest. They can afford their own place in SF, thank you. 5th, the OP wanted to do a 12weeks bootcamp to then work remotely and be a ski bum? That's nice, but he obviously didn't really research what a bootcamp really offers. I've done a bootcamp - I'm now working for myself, but that's 5 years later. I would have NOT been able to work remotely my first year, I needed way too much mentoring and help to continue learning. Bootcamps don't promise to make your a senior engineer in 12 weeks, they promise to teach you how to learn, so can get a cheap entry level job and _continue_ learning on the job, with _mentoring_. Sorry this sounds like a rant, but I've seen too many people giving a bad image of what bootcamps have to offer. I've had a great experience doing mine and this is true for most people I know who did one too. It just has to be taken how it is.
- zahrc 8y agoIt's a weird story for me and I have absolutely no understanding for it. (no, I don't mean tolerance) I'm not from the US and am far from any startup experience, but I am a young programmer myself, without either good budget nor education. Programming is the love my life but I would never bear this situation at any cost for it. He states himself that programming was just "means to an end" for him. So why even bother? I just can't comprehend? Sorry for being ignorant or something ... I'd really like to understand
- ajmurmann 8y ago>He states himself that programming was just "means to an end" for him. So why even bother? Because you gotta pay the bills somehow. This is something you only ever hear from people in our profession and I think it sometimes leads to self-exploitation. Nobody would ever say "He states himself that driving the garbage truck was just "means to an end" for him. So why even bother?"
- zahrc 8y agoBut, hopefully, and rarely nobody has to live in that conditions to drive a garbage truck. There is so many stuff out there he he could've paid the bills with, why did it had to be programming in this kind of experience?
- johnpowell 8y agoNothing wrong with driving a garbage truck. It pays well, you know when you will go home, you get to be outside, you get some exercise in. Shit, most of it is automated now. At least where I live they never really have to get out of the truck. There is a arm that grabs the bucket and puts it in the truck. It is kinda like being a bus driver but dealing with less filth.
- jschwartzi 8y agoBecause it's something he had aptitude for. That's why I continue to me a programmer. People pay me for it and I'm reasonably good at it so why would I change careers? I started as an amateur but now that I'm a professional I'm not doing it for love anymore.
- sgammon 8y agoI came up the same way as the author of this article. If you don’t go to Stanford or otherwise earn yourself a CS degree, you’ve got to rightly, and almost by definition, build experience and connections from the barest of circumstances. Nobody said a nice, well-paid coder job, let alone a successful startup and early position there, would be easy. Besides, he misses the point. There are brilliant men and women in the SF Bay, doing magical things. Maybe they spent time on the Sisyphean path he and I did, maybe not. But don’t go bashing everyone here because you chose the riskiest route and then lived it. He’s right that this place remains a beacon of hope and opportunity all over the world. That’s a good thing dammit
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dhnsmakala 8y agoI call bushit on this story. This article is greatly exaggerated to grab your attention. $1.4k for a closet in an Airbnb with 13 people, where you don't get a key and have to sneak in? Heh. I have found a large room in a newer complex through a company pairing roommates in just a few days. It was $1800. Heck, you could pay $1k for a room in Berkely or Oakland and commute in by Bart.
- Apocryphon 8y agoThere are $1k rooms in Berkeley?
- ybtrewa 8y agoLol, your situation doesn't sound a whole lot better. I assume for $400 more he could have graduated to a full sized room.
- dhnsmakala 8y ago1/2 roommates and private bath vs a dozen roommates and a closet...and we're talking about staying in SF here. If I wanted to save money, I'd accept a half hour commute and get a room near a Bart station for half the cost. This article is a total lie, unless these people are really bottom of the barrel idiots.
- ajmurmann 8y agoThis is of course in no way representative. If you are a software developer in SF you get very quickly to $140k+. That guy in the closet was probably stashing way North of $60k annually, not counting equity. Do this for 7-10 years and you can retire silver else and are probably in your early 30s. If you work at FAANG you can easily take home way North of $200k. No reason to rent a illegal closet at that point unless you want to be super prudent. As for the author's situation. There are not camps in other cities. He could have attended one elsewhere and then relocate if he wanted. It's also only 3 months. You'll survive. I rented a tiny room between kitchen and living room that saw lots of threw traffic in a shitty old house in Munich when I was a student so that I could do a internship at big Corp. It was less than ideal, but when you are young you can live shitty for a while. It will make you appreciate what you have later.
- enraged_camel 8y ago>>That guy in the closet was probably stashing way North of $60k annually, not counting equity. Do this for 7-10 years and you can retire silver else and are probably in your early 30s. Retire with $750k (assuming stock market gains over that 10 years)? Man, I don’t know many people who can do that, at least not in the US. Don’t get me wrong, it gets you out of the “work or starve” level, but it’s also not exactly “I don’t have to work a day the rest of my life” money.
- jen729w 8y ago...and now you're a 30-year-old rich guy with no mates who knew nothing of his 20s. No thanks.
- nikanj 8y agoThere's mountains of broke 30-year olds with no mates who did nothing in their 20s. We try to maintain a false dichotomy where the alternative to working extremely hard is partying, travelling the world, and of course tons of sex. Most people don't do either.
- jiveturkey 8y agoare you kidding me? it’s written as if it took place over years and decades. “the longer i stayed in the hostel, the more my life slipped away”. it was weeks. i wouldn’t be surprised if the guy living in the closet was the owner of the unit. (or lessee) the author thinks he’s going to graduate from boot camp and “make it”? please. this article and the fact of its (self) publication tells us a lot about the author, and almost nothing about startup life. if you understand that, it is interesting in its own way.
- garganzol 8y agoYep, spotted the same thing. Just a few weeks, not years. Meh. A few weeks is nothing. You need years and decades to master something.
- ghaff 8y agoWhile one suspects that many of these coding bootcamp stories don't have happy endings, I'm not sure there's anything particularly extraordinary about enduring far less than ideal living conditions for some closed-ended period. Out of school I spent a fair bit of time in shipyards and on offshore drilling rigs which had minimal dorm-style accommodations. Which was fine at the time but certainly not something I would have wanted to do indefinitely.
- sznrbrt 8y agoAUTHOR'S MAIN PROBLEM: "Programming for me was never supposed to be more than a means to an end..." Your weakness disgusts me so much...
- sznrbrt 8y agoMAIN ISSUE: "Programming for me was never supposed to be more than a means to an end..." YOUR WEAKNESS DISGUSTS ME
- maitredusoi 8y agois REMOTE a strong word ?
- growthexecutive 8y agoSorry to be harsh but the author is a naive idiot. He correctly mentions that 12-week coding boot camps are ubiquitous, so why then did he chose to move to one of the most unaffordable cities in the world? San Francisco is not the only place you can land a programming job. In fact your life as a programmer both in work and outside of work will probably be better in most other cities in the US (or around the world). I'm a programmer myself and I've worked in the UK and Germany, both in startups and large companies, and I've never known anybody who's worked more than a 40 hour week and certainly don't know any coders who had to live in victorian workhouse style accommodation like this guy did. And many of my colleagues have been self taught with no university degree.
- eaenki 8y agoI think this article represents a small segment of people that can’t manage their finances and/or strive for better living conditions . Even at with the base rate of $100k/year - which is cheap, you can rent a beautiful $5k/m apartment and split it with a friend. Heck, you can even cook and eat organic only. Use Uber to move around. Even then, at “maximum living conditions” you should be able to save north of $50k/y. There’s countless beautiful Airbnbs at the same price in case you can only rent short-term. Also, you either choose a corporate job or something you love. You can’t work 15h/day on something you don’t love. All in all, this article it’s halfway BS, halfway poor management of one’s own living conditions and financials
- dan-robertson 8y agoThis does not add up. At 100k pa in San Francisco you would get something like 67k after tax, minus 30k for rent, minus (let’s be generous) 15k for other expenses leaves 22k, not “north of 50k”
- enraged_camel 8y agoYeah, it is always deeply ironic when someone complains about people who can’t manage their finances well, then asserts that it is possible to save north of $50k with a salary of $100k in SF.
- eaenki 8y agoI considered that amount to be net income. Obviously.
- eaenki 8y agoI considered that amount to be net income. Obviously.
- ohiovr 8y agoI would rather try to civilize some other area than put up with that.
- mothsonasloth 8y agoI will be trying remote working soon, this whole culture of co-location is the reason you have SF, London, NY etc. I moved away from London because its economically and socially tough. With a remote job I will be able to make a London salary but live wherever I like, enjoy the outdoors and live life how I see fit. SF, Madrid, Berlin, NY are sparkly places where a lot of people (bar the lucky few) end up trapped.
- sleepychu 8y agoHave you lined this up already? Do you have examples of places paying London salaries to remote employees?
- sokoloff 8y agoLondon salaries are surprisingly low to this US-based employer with employees in a handful of cities around the world. I was expecting “NYC salaries” and instead found more like “Atlanta salaries” which I can’t figure out how the economics works for London-based employees. Given that, lots of US employers with remote work available will be able to hit London salary level I think.
- mothsonasloth 8y agoYou are correct, a lot of US companies are setting up shop in the UK, some examples are JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley in Glasgow. Its a happy medium from going full outsource to Asia
- Havoc 8y ago>which I can’t figure out how the economics works for London-based employees. They don't. Much like SF it appeals to people though so they flock to it anyway
- badpun 8y ago> I can’t figure out how the economics works for London-based employees. Well, they don't have the privilege of being able to work in the US, so basically it is what it is.
- l33tbro 8y agoProbably worth mentioning that this article is from 2016, but I'm sure not much has changed. In fact, this article may have been inspired by a much longer piece from the previous year (1) which focuses on the kinds of dropout teens that Peter Thiel would later come to encourage to head west. Fascinating read. (1) https://stories.californiasunday.com/2015-06-07/real-teenagers-silicon-valley/ https://stories.californiasunday.com/2015-06-07/real-teenage...
- the_rosentotter 8y ago> "Hackathons are technological Woodstock" This sentence embodies what repulses me about current Silicon Valley culture: The self-satisfied claim to San Francisco 60's heritage, only, you know, with peace and love being replaced by greed and egotism.
- garganzol 8y agoNice write-up. Honestly speaking I'm pretty glad the system works that way. It puts a good filter on people who want to enter the tech without the real interest in tech. Money is just one part of scheme. Another part is value. If you want get a lot of money but not ready to bring a whole lot of value then the writing is on the wall.
- j7ake 8y agoIs this monthly rent what is expected or is this an outlier case?
- gm-conspiracy 8y agoFrom multiple recent cursory craigslist searches, it seems you can find a bedroom of your own in a shared apartment/house for $1200, but you would share a bathroom. For around $2000, you would share an apartment, but have your own bedroom and your own bathroom. For $3000 to $4000, you can have your own space and bathroom, but that would unlikely be more than 500sqft. All seem to want a security deposit equivalent to one month's rent.
- bbcbasic 8y agoIts a fire hazard.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Kagerjay 8y agoUnrelated, but my first thought process was a video I've seen of a semi-homeless guy living in an A/C storage locker. He had to sneak in everynight and do some tech macgyver solutions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPVCTLPNUzo&t=0s&list=LLI462thar4CFee8GIqXwEPQ&index=457 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPVCTLPNUzo&t=0s&list=LLI462...
- aviv 8y agoThe only time you should be working 80 hour weeks is to build your own business, not someone else's. That brings me to the second point, the only time you should be working is to build your own business, not someone else's. A lot of people fail at both.
- sockgrant 8y agoAgree on first, disagree on second. There’s a lot of reasons to work a well paying corporate job. But here-here on the first point: never take stock at startups, kids. It’s never gonna work out well. Wanna work at a startup? Make one.
- xivzgrev 8y agoIf you are paying 1200 per month to be in soma with 12 other people that is batshit crazy. And someone is making batshit crazy money off you. There are plenty of places you could get with a few friends for less even in soma. After the first week I would've been talking with others in there about moving out together. Seriously you work at mother f'ing Pinterest and you are ok living like this?
- madrox 8y agoBased on the description I’m 99% sure I live in the apartment complex described in the article. I can confirm there are a few illegal Airbnbs operating here. The complex has even been trying to combat it by putting out a program where that’s ok as long as you follow certain rules. The rent here is nuts, but if 14 people are living in a 2 bedroom apartment here then the operator has a very profitable scam going. I mean, the real problem is that it's impossible to break into SF if you don't already know a lot or make a lot. As long as a 1br costs $2,000 or more you'll find operations like this.