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Let's say you're a company with a serious PR problem about the working conditions in your warehouses. You set up 15 Twitter accounts claiming to be employees o

by agwa 8y ago

Let's say you're a company with a serious PR problem about the working conditions in your warehouses. You set up 15 Twitter accounts claiming to be employees of your warehouses. You make sure the accounts are laughably bad at concealing the fact that they are shills, with cookie-cutter bios and responses that are obviously canned talking points. This ensures that the accounts are discovered and written up by various publications, and the articles widely shared. The articles, while laughing at how transparently phony the accounts are, inevitably mention that you are now offering tours of your warehouses (which makes you sound trustworthy since you're not hiding anything), and embed the Tweets that say you pay more than other companies in your industry and offer medical benefits. (Since this information is falsifiable (capable of being proven false, but not necessarily false) it's credible even though it's coming from a shill account.) You've probably not made anyone's opinion of you worse (you look more stupid than malevolent), but you've gotten your message in front of eyeballs and it might make some people think better of you.

jakobegger 8y ago
It's amazing how well this works despite being obvious propaganda. I felt my own opinion on Amazon Fullfilment Centers change as I read the article. One thing that makes propaganda like this so effective is that journalists generally do not bother to verify any propaganda claims (eg. does Amazon really pay 30% more?), so even if they write articles making fun of you they still repeat your message.
- jancsika 8y ago
  Can you explain a little about what you felt changing in your opinion here? What I got out of it was that Amazon had previously been dehumanizing their workers to the point that the PR drones have to now overtly brag about complying with OSHA laws.
  - adventured 8y ago
    The questions it prompts are pretty straight forward. Does Amazon actually pay ~30% better now than their competitors (or anything close to that)? Do they offer dental, vision and healthcare coverage for all employees? If those things are true, then I think better of Amazon because of it. I would have guessed none of those things were true otherwise. The media and essentially all comments online proclaim that Amazon employees are being tortured horrifically on a daily basis and paid absolute bottom tier wages across the board. Those articles and opinions have, to one degree or another, tilted my opinion of Amazon in a negative manner. Can anyone here speak to if those positive things are true and or mostly true? I have no idea. I'd think better of Amazon if they were.
    - FC_Associate 8y ago
      I'm not exactly sure how much better Amazon pays, if at all better, here in SoCal starting pay is around $12-$14 per hour for L1 associates, but anecdotally I feel like this is on the higher end when compared to similar jobs, at least compared to the jobs I've held. I can't speak to the insurance coverage provided since I'm a part time worker but from what I've heard, while pay isn't great, the insurance seems to be pretty good once you're eligible. I will say that from what I've seen my station managers take safety very seriously. Some of this must extend up the corporate ladder because I had a friend who was injured on the job here and Amazon did a very good job of making sure he got the care he required. He actually wanted to come back to work much earlier than Amazon would allow, he missed his coworkers, but they wanted to make sure he was completely healed and made it clear that he shouldn't rush things. He was being paid worker's comp during this time. This certainly made a good impression on me. I also really appreciated how straight forward the hiring process was. I was unemployed and homeless, I actually lived on an empty lot behind our warehouse for a while, when I was hired and out of all the jobs I applied to Amazon had the most streamlined hiring process. This might not seem like a huge deal but when you're already struggling it was nice to not have too many hoops to jump through to try and land a job. Obviously due to my background I'm probably viewing my work overly positively, it feels pretty great to finally have a little bit of savings, I've saved up around $1500 over the past year and this is the most money I've had in my entire life, but overall I've enjoyed my time at Amazon. But again, from the reporting I've seen there are still some pretty glaring systemic problems within the company. Edit: I saw a poster comment under this post asserting that I was being paid to post here in defense of Amazon, the post has since been deleted after receiving some downvotes, for the record I did not downvote the poster, but I will address their concerns. I can certainly understand why my post might raise suspicions. To give some background I have another account on HN that I've been active on for approximately three years and have a bit over 2000 karma. I post a few times a month, and by post I mean I usually just ask tons of questions about topics I have a limited understanding of and the kind people here try their best to explain things to me. I wanted to keep this account separate form that one since I don't post anything Amazon related using my normal account. I hope I don't sound like too much of a shill but I'm somewhat excited to finally be able to contribute to a topic I have some understanding of.
- RodericDay 8y ago
  ^ this is the real propaganda right here
- nickthemagicman 8y ago
  It's a gish gallop. No one has time/energy to verify it all and they're not providing any proof.
  - Y_Y 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop I wish I had a debating technique named after me.
    - ergothus 8y ago
      In school I was interested in debate until I learned some of the rules, then I lost all interest. I expected to find a contest to effectively communicate and apply facts, but I found the opposite - a contest to be better at twisting, denying, or just ignoring facts. An effective debater is more likely to deceive me, not educate me. I've not looked into it since high school, so I sometimes wonder if I misjudged, but links like that wikipedia one make me think I correctly avoided it.
      - nickthemagicman 8y ago
        I've been debating with a lot of alt-right people lately on Facebook and have been studying their debating tactics and how they apply them to support q-anon, and pizzagate, and Trump. It's really fastinating to see all of these strategies played out in the real world. I use these strategies to identify what they are doing and cut through the sophistry and attempt to reach the truth. The nice thing about online debating is that you have time to think about and analyze the others argument vs on the spot debate where emotions get involved.
- Papirola 8y ago
  there are the real meme wars
- enolan 8y ago
  Note the tweet says they pay 30% more than "traditional retail stores". I don't think that's the right comparison. Pick & pack in a warehouse is much more physically demanding than being on the floor at Best Buy. The better question is do they pay more than UPS, or for that matter, picking strawberries?
- spwmoni 8y ago
  Gizmodo did, in fact, verify that 30% claim: https://gizmodo.com/on-amazon-s-time-1826570882 https://gizmodo.com/on-amazon-s-time-1826570882 > The amounts associates reported receiving in VCP [Variable Compensation Pay] were underwhelming. One claimed his highest monthly payout was $48. Another averaged around $60. The only reason these paltry bonuses are relevant at all is that Amazon itself uses them to arrive at the over $15 per hour figure it estimates as its average Fulfillment Center worker’s pay. “Hourly pay rates are competitive and we offer great benefits – we encourage anyone to compare our pay and benefits to other retailers,” Amazon told Gizmodo in a statement for this piece. Glassdoor lists average warehouse pay for Amazon at $12.33, less at, Home Depot ($12.96), Costco ($13.43), and Target ($14.57). Even stacked against Walmart, its main competition and a business with its own set of unsavory practices, Amazon still comes up twenty cents short on hourly pay.
- xg15 8y ago
  I feel this particular mind trick may be restricted to members of the HN community - who might already be very willing to give Amazon the benefit of doubt in the first place. Note that, as you say, the information may be completely fabricated (or it may be "technically true", but attached to a lot of catches and conditions that the "ambassadors" conveniently didn't mention) Also, while the article didn't research the claims, it did put them next to the (vastly better verified) claims of the ex-workers who reported absolutely undesirable working conditions. Even if they beat the pay for industry average, would that matter so much if they in turn offer vastly below-average working conditions?
topmonk 8y ago
Sounds like they took a page out of Trump's playbook
jakeogh 8y ago
I vote with my money, constantly. So Amazon was out long ago. Plenty of people I know pay attention to who owns what. To us, it's irrelevant how much they sockpuppet.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Where do you buy used books? I like the local bookstore as mch as the next guy, but I don't know of any reliable source for used books other than Amazon.
  - parrellel 8y ago
    Things like AbeBooks and Book Mooch exist. They just aren't as immediately convenient, so, the question is - as is often the case on the internet - convenience or morality.
    - dbliss 8y ago
      FYI - Abebooks is owned by Amazon.
      - parrellel 8y ago
        ... and for a few years too, damn. Welp, guess I'll never use them again. Thank you!
  - ppod 8y ago
    Also, I don't understand the presumption that independent stores are better on any of the dimensions that Amazon is bad. In my experience as a factory or call-centre worker, the smaller the business is the more likely it is that they will try to avoid tax on cash transactions, ask their workers to work unreasonable hours or accept average rates of pay that are less than minimum wage, violate health and safety laws, etc.
  - benplant 8y ago
    I’ve used https://www.betterworldbooks.com https://www.betterworldbooks.com, they are a B Corp and donate a book for each book purchased.
Terr_ 8y ago
It's kind of like the Mere Exposure Effect, applied to talking points or claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Gish Gallop + Mere Exposure Effect + Streisand Effect (from the negative news coverage)
presscast 8y ago
The thing to keep in mind is that clickbait writers will take liberties when citing these twitter accounts, cutting up the quotes to make them sound natural.
alexozer 8y ago
I think "never attribute to intelligence which can adequately be explained by stupidity" applies here.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"a serious PR problem" ... just a PR problem?

by agwa 8y ago

jakobegger 8y ago

It's amazing how well this works despite being obvious propaganda. I felt my own opinion on Amazon Fullfilment Centers change as I read the article. One thing that makes propaganda like this so effective is that journalists generally do not bother to verify any propaganda claims (eg. does Amazon really pay 30% more?), so even if they write articles making fun of you they still repeat your message.

jancsika 8y ago
Can you explain a little about what you felt changing in your opinion here? What I got out of it was that Amazon had previously been dehumanizing their workers to the point that the PR drones have to now overtly brag about complying with OSHA laws.
- adventured 8y ago
  The questions it prompts are pretty straight forward. Does Amazon actually pay ~30% better now than their competitors (or anything close to that)? Do they offer dental, vision and healthcare coverage for all employees? If those things are true, then I think better of Amazon because of it. I would have guessed none of those things were true otherwise. The media and essentially all comments online proclaim that Amazon employees are being tortured horrifically on a daily basis and paid absolute bottom tier wages across the board. Those articles and opinions have, to one degree or another, tilted my opinion of Amazon in a negative manner. Can anyone here speak to if those positive things are true and or mostly true? I have no idea. I'd think better of Amazon if they were.
  - FC_Associate 8y ago
    I'm not exactly sure how much better Amazon pays, if at all better, here in SoCal starting pay is around $12-$14 per hour for L1 associates, but anecdotally I feel like this is on the higher end when compared to similar jobs, at least compared to the jobs I've held. I can't speak to the insurance coverage provided since I'm a part time worker but from what I've heard, while pay isn't great, the insurance seems to be pretty good once you're eligible. I will say that from what I've seen my station managers take safety very seriously. Some of this must extend up the corporate ladder because I had a friend who was injured on the job here and Amazon did a very good job of making sure he got the care he required. He actually wanted to come back to work much earlier than Amazon would allow, he missed his coworkers, but they wanted to make sure he was completely healed and made it clear that he shouldn't rush things. He was being paid worker's comp during this time. This certainly made a good impression on me. I also really appreciated how straight forward the hiring process was. I was unemployed and homeless, I actually lived on an empty lot behind our warehouse for a while, when I was hired and out of all the jobs I applied to Amazon had the most streamlined hiring process. This might not seem like a huge deal but when you're already struggling it was nice to not have too many hoops to jump through to try and land a job. Obviously due to my background I'm probably viewing my work overly positively, it feels pretty great to finally have a little bit of savings, I've saved up around $1500 over the past year and this is the most money I've had in my entire life, but overall I've enjoyed my time at Amazon. But again, from the reporting I've seen there are still some pretty glaring systemic problems within the company. Edit: I saw a poster comment under this post asserting that I was being paid to post here in defense of Amazon, the post has since been deleted after receiving some downvotes, for the record I did not downvote the poster, but I will address their concerns. I can certainly understand why my post might raise suspicions. To give some background I have another account on HN that I've been active on for approximately three years and have a bit over 2000 karma. I post a few times a month, and by post I mean I usually just ask tons of questions about topics I have a limited understanding of and the kind people here try their best to explain things to me. I wanted to keep this account separate form that one since I don't post anything Amazon related using my normal account. I hope I don't sound like too much of a shill but I'm somewhat excited to finally be able to contribute to a topic I have some understanding of.
RodericDay 8y ago
^ this is the real propaganda right here
nickthemagicman 8y ago
It's a gish gallop. No one has time/energy to verify it all and they're not providing any proof.
- Y_Y 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop I wish I had a debating technique named after me.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    In school I was interested in debate until I learned some of the rules, then I lost all interest. I expected to find a contest to effectively communicate and apply facts, but I found the opposite - a contest to be better at twisting, denying, or just ignoring facts. An effective debater is more likely to deceive me, not educate me. I've not looked into it since high school, so I sometimes wonder if I misjudged, but links like that wikipedia one make me think I correctly avoided it.
    - nickthemagicman 8y ago
      I've been debating with a lot of alt-right people lately on Facebook and have been studying their debating tactics and how they apply them to support q-anon, and pizzagate, and Trump. It's really fastinating to see all of these strategies played out in the real world. I use these strategies to identify what they are doing and cut through the sophistry and attempt to reach the truth. The nice thing about online debating is that you have time to think about and analyze the others argument vs on the spot debate where emotions get involved.
Papirola 8y ago
there are the real meme wars
enolan 8y ago
Note the tweet says they pay 30% more than "traditional retail stores". I don't think that's the right comparison. Pick & pack in a warehouse is much more physically demanding than being on the floor at Best Buy. The better question is do they pay more than UPS, or for that matter, picking strawberries?
spwmoni 8y ago
Gizmodo did, in fact, verify that 30% claim: https://gizmodo.com/on-amazon-s-time-1826570882 https://gizmodo.com/on-amazon-s-time-1826570882 > The amounts associates reported receiving in VCP [Variable Compensation Pay] were underwhelming. One claimed his highest monthly payout was $48. Another averaged around $60. The only reason these paltry bonuses are relevant at all is that Amazon itself uses them to arrive at the over $15 per hour figure it estimates as its average Fulfillment Center worker’s pay. “Hourly pay rates are competitive and we offer great benefits – we encourage anyone to compare our pay and benefits to other retailers,” Amazon told Gizmodo in a statement for this piece. Glassdoor lists average warehouse pay for Amazon at $12.33, less at, Home Depot ($12.96), Costco ($13.43), and Target ($14.57). Even stacked against Walmart, its main competition and a business with its own set of unsavory practices, Amazon still comes up twenty cents short on hourly pay.
xg15 8y ago
I feel this particular mind trick may be restricted to members of the HN community - who might already be very willing to give Amazon the benefit of doubt in the first place. Note that, as you say, the information may be completely fabricated (or it may be "technically true", but attached to a lot of catches and conditions that the "ambassadors" conveniently didn't mention) Also, while the article didn't research the claims, it did put them next to the (vastly better verified) claims of the ex-workers who reported absolutely undesirable working conditions. Even if they beat the pay for industry average, would that matter so much if they in turn offer vastly below-average working conditions?

topmonk 8y ago

Sounds like they took a page out of Trump's playbook

jakeogh 8y ago

I vote with my money, constantly. So Amazon was out long ago. Plenty of people I know pay attention to who owns what. To us, it's irrelevant how much they sockpuppet.

nerdponx 8y ago
Where do you buy used books? I like the local bookstore as mch as the next guy, but I don't know of any reliable source for used books other than Amazon.
- parrellel 8y ago
  Things like AbeBooks and Book Mooch exist. They just aren't as immediately convenient, so, the question is - as is often the case on the internet - convenience or morality.
  - dbliss 8y ago
    FYI - Abebooks is owned by Amazon.
    - parrellel 8y ago
      ... and for a few years too, damn. Welp, guess I'll never use them again. Thank you!
- ppod 8y ago
  Also, I don't understand the presumption that independent stores are better on any of the dimensions that Amazon is bad. In my experience as a factory or call-centre worker, the smaller the business is the more likely it is that they will try to avoid tax on cash transactions, ask their workers to work unreasonable hours or accept average rates of pay that are less than minimum wage, violate health and safety laws, etc.
- benplant 8y ago
  I’ve used https://www.betterworldbooks.com https://www.betterworldbooks.com, they are a B Corp and donate a book for each book purchased.

Terr_ 8y ago

It's kind of like the Mere Exposure Effect, applied to talking points or claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect

nerdponx 8y ago
Gish Gallop + Mere Exposure Effect + Streisand Effect (from the negative news coverage)

presscast 8y ago

The thing to keep in mind is that clickbait writers will take liberties when citing these twitter accounts, cutting up the quotes to make them sound natural.

alexozer 8y ago

I think "never attribute to intelligence which can adequately be explained by stupidity" applies here.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"a serious PR problem" ... just a PR problem?