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Having participated in a lot of countercultural gatherings, I was initially intrigued about Burning Man. But if you hear about an event from the mass media, ins

Having participated in a lot of countercultural gatherings, I was initially intrigued about Burning Man. But if you hear about an event from the mass media, instead of through word of mouth in your own small countercultural community, chances are that the event is already past its prime. After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s, and then hearing more recent attendees describe their experiences, I have long since got the feeling that BM is now as played out as, say, Goa was after 1972, or Nimbin after about 1980.

gammateam 8y ago
> After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism The founding members weren't serious about "radical self reliance" as their congregation now repeats without practicing Its also more of a heroin hit for these people, the second hits will never be as good as the first, but its still the first hit for everyone else. The expense also invites the criticism, it is ironic and funny. Wage workers can't take a week and a half off for burning AND have another vacation somewhere else that year, and thats if they can rationalize the cost to begin with. So it invites quirky tech CEOs and socialites and DJs, along side the actual counterculture people who barely have a social security number. For a festival in an inhospitable environment that prides itself on decommodification, it is ALWAYS going to have criticism. SEE YA THERE! :D
- timr 8y ago
  "But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism" And so is this reply. Essentially any event that has substantially changed from its original form/intent has this conversational pattern: Old participant: "$event is past it's prime now." New participant: "Everyone says that, but $event is still popular, and I like it, so they're wrong." Of the two opinions, only the one from the old participant carries information about how things have changed. Whether this is relevant to a new participant is debatable, but it's certainly relevant to conversations where people try to sell a mass-market event as a niche experience.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    yes and that's fine but lets look at the article itself: why is it even written? because it transformed to being more of “the hippest party around” instead of “true experiment in intentional creative community”, despite maintaining both of those experiences for everyone that attends? I casually hear all of the disdain towards the concept of burning man, and it mostly comes down to the contrived concept which themselves only stand out because of the costs necessary to get there this festival in particular invites it, and I enjoy the privilege of being able to go
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism Perhaps you misunderstand. I did not mean that those old-timers complained about Burning Man today and said it was passé. Some of them have not even gone again since that era two decades ago. But simply talking to a 1990s participant and a more recent participant about what they remember of the event reveals details of logistics, close-knitness, and interaction with the outside world that tell me that I would find the event much less enjoyable these days than if I had been able to participate in the 1990s.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    I see Some of that crowd does to the area on the 4th of July week now. They say its more like how it used to be
fluxmglrbly 8y ago
> After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s There were people already saying "it's not cool any more" even in the 90s. That was in fact how I first heard about Burning Man, due to someone complaining about it not being cool anymore, around 97 or so. Very likely people have pretty much always said it. It's like the old joke about how the first car race happened the day someone built the second car: Q: When did someone first say Burning Man wasn't cool any more? A: The day after the second Burning Man.
- anon08142018 8y ago
  I remember watching that Netflix documentary on Burning Man and it looked like a great time. I really don't understand all the hate. A younger me would probably think its cool to poke fun at Burning man, but in reality its not like I'm doing anything more interesting sitting at home.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > There were people already saying "it's not cool any more" even in the 90s. If you will please refer to my post above, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Obviously any social scene is going to have people complaining it isn’t cool any more compared to years past. But I find that by talking to early participants, ones who don’t expressly complain like that, you can still make your own conclusion that the event now may not be as satisfying or worthwhile as in earlier years.
3pt14159 8y ago
There are new countercultural / underground things going on that the hive mind techie culture hasn't found yet because the few of us that are lucky enough to be included in it know how fast things get discovered / ruined now. It's hard though. People like using Snap and Insta as their journal.
- marnett 8y ago
  do you live in SF?
  - 3pt14159 8y ago
    No, Toronto. Why?
    - marnett 8y ago
      because i was going to ask to talk about the underground scene you were referring
      - 3pt14159 8y ago
        It's alive in Toronto, but I was specifically thinking of some places / events in Europe and Asia. I actually have no idea if the art / cool scene has any legs anywhere in America.
tlrobinson 8y ago
Yup, Burning Man has definitely been ruined, you shouldn't go: https://journal.burningman.org/2016/10/philosophical-center/tenprinciples/a-brief-history-of-who-ruined-burning-man/ https://journal.burningman.org/2016/10/philosophical-center/...

gammateam 8y ago

> After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism The founding members weren't serious about "radical self reliance" as their congregation now repeats without practicing Its also more of a heroin hit for these people, the second hits will never be as good as the first, but its still the first hit for everyone else. The expense also invites the criticism, it is ironic and funny. Wage workers can't take a week and a half off for burning AND have another vacation somewhere else that year, and thats if they can rationalize the cost to begin with. So it invites quirky tech CEOs and socialites and DJs, along side the actual counterculture people who barely have a social security number. For a festival in an inhospitable environment that prides itself on decommodification, it is ALWAYS going to have criticism. SEE YA THERE! :D

timr 8y ago
"But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism" And so is this reply. Essentially any event that has substantially changed from its original form/intent has this conversational pattern: Old participant: "$event is past it's prime now." New participant: "Everyone says that, but $event is still popular, and I like it, so they're wrong." Of the two opinions, only the one from the old participant carries information about how things have changed. Whether this is relevant to a new participant is debatable, but it's certainly relevant to conversations where people try to sell a mass-market event as a niche experience.
- gammateam 8y ago
  yes and that's fine but lets look at the article itself: why is it even written? because it transformed to being more of “the hippest party around” instead of “true experiment in intentional creative community”, despite maintaining both of those experiences for everyone that attends? I casually hear all of the disdain towards the concept of burning man, and it mostly comes down to the contrived concept which themselves only stand out because of the costs necessary to get there this festival in particular invites it, and I enjoy the privilege of being able to go
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
> But that's part of the meme, just as much as Burning Man's principles invite the criticism Perhaps you misunderstand. I did not mean that those old-timers complained about Burning Man today and said it was passé. Some of them have not even gone again since that era two decades ago. But simply talking to a 1990s participant and a more recent participant about what they remember of the event reveals details of logistics, close-knitness, and interaction with the outside world that tell me that I would find the event much less enjoyable these days than if I had been able to participate in the 1990s.
- gammateam 8y ago
  I see Some of that crowd does to the area on the 4th of July week now. They say its more like how it used to be

fluxmglrbly 8y ago

> After hearing lots of old-timers talk about how Burning Man was in the 1990s There were people already saying "it's not cool any more" even in the 90s. That was in fact how I first heard about Burning Man, due to someone complaining about it not being cool anymore, around 97 or so. Very likely people have pretty much always said it. It's like the old joke about how the first car race happened the day someone built the second car: Q: When did someone first say Burning Man wasn't cool any more? A: The day after the second Burning Man.

anon08142018 8y ago
I remember watching that Netflix documentary on Burning Man and it looked like a great time. I really don't understand all the hate. A younger me would probably think its cool to poke fun at Burning man, but in reality its not like I'm doing anything more interesting sitting at home.
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
> There were people already saying "it's not cool any more" even in the 90s. If you will please refer to my post above, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Obviously any social scene is going to have people complaining it isn’t cool any more compared to years past. But I find that by talking to early participants, ones who don’t expressly complain like that, you can still make your own conclusion that the event now may not be as satisfying or worthwhile as in earlier years.

3pt14159 8y ago

There are new countercultural / underground things going on that the hive mind techie culture hasn't found yet because the few of us that are lucky enough to be included in it know how fast things get discovered / ruined now. It's hard though. People like using Snap and Insta as their journal.

marnett 8y ago
do you live in SF?
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  No, Toronto. Why?
  - marnett 8y ago
    because i was going to ask to talk about the underground scene you were referring
    - 3pt14159 8y ago
      It's alive in Toronto, but I was specifically thinking of some places / events in Europe and Asia. I actually have no idea if the art / cool scene has any legs anywhere in America.

tlrobinson 8y ago

Yup, Burning Man has definitely been ruined, you shouldn't go: https://journal.burningman.org/2016/10/philosophical-center/tenprinciples/a-brief-history-of-who-ruined-burning-man/ https://journal.burningman.org/2016/10/philosophical-center/...