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One of the big problems with forming a gig worker union is the same problem with gig work in general; you're disconnected with your coworkers and other firm par

One of the big problems with forming a gig worker union is the same problem with gig work in general; you're disconnected with your coworkers and other firm participants. Uber can press a button in response to a strike and send out a push notification to potential scabs offering a bribe to cross the digital picket line. The strikers both don't know and can't efficiently tell who scabs are, and as such can't put pressure for solidarity on them.

opportune 8y ago
Some would say this is the killer-app of gig platforms - the picket lines and scabs are almost invisible, and workers are completely disconnected from each other unless they seek each other out. Makes organization and striking very hard
- tajen 8y ago
  Honest question: Is there any upside to the organization of strikes? I’m from France and what I see is mostly people in a position of blackmailing society do strike. To the question of whether it improves working conditions, it seems as if it improved them, but at the expense of 1. underrepresented colleagues and 2. the taxpayer. If underrepresented colleagues (whom I used to be part of before I quit) are any meaningful part, then the results of strikes are at the expense of the majority of society. It’s great that I have 7.5 weeks of holidays, but they are also mandatory... so much that a net salary for an engineer is 2000€ net pm. It’s like... a joke. “Everyone is poor” is France, compared to other countries I’ve lived in with fewer taxes and friction. Strikes, more than ever, seem to be the imposition on weaker workers of the force of stronger workers. The benefits of the strikes are taken at the expense of all workers. It doesn’t improve the economy and adds friction, slowing down the economy. And what the new economy brings to me is so much more reliability of services, since they’re not on strike every second day or shut down at 3.30pm every first day. I like the no-strike economy, because I see what people suffer through in the strike economy. Besides, parties who organize strikes also organize to shut down free speech events, so strike isn’t compatible with free speech. Is the fact that Uber doesn’t have strikes a pure bonus of the platform?
walterbell 8y ago
Some Uber drivers also use the Lyft app. Would they use a “DriveTogether” app for labor organizing? Is digital labor organizing more or less work than old-school organizing of workers in factories across a large geographic region? Edit: looks like this is now legally permitted, https://tcf.org/content/report/virtual-labor-organizing/ https://tcf.org/content/report/virtual-labor-organizing/ ”Due to a little-known, but far-reaching change made by the NLRB last year, virtual labor organizing by employees is now sanctioned by law in many situations and could possibly be transformative in the workplace ... NLRB recently reversed years of legal precedent that allowed employers to ban the use of workplace e-mail for organizing or communicating about the terms and conditions of work. Last year, in its decision in Purple Communications, Inc., the NLRB emphatically endorsed the right of employees to use workplace e-mail for such activities. It held that “employee use of email for statutorily protected communications on nonworking time must presumptively be permitted by employers who have chosen to give employees access to their email systems.” The NLRB added that: “Employees’ need to share information and opinions is particularly acute in the context of an initial organizing campaign.”
- opportune 8y ago
  One major barrier is that you don’t have to meet any of your coworkers unless you explicitly seek them out, and your employer certainly isn’t going to help you. So yes I would say that labor organizing across a gig platform is considerably harder than for factories across geographic regions. The social fabric is a lot harder to construct
  - sleepychu 8y ago
    Can anyone who drives for Uber/Lyft/Grab chime in here? Do you know your peers?
  - jsjohnst 8y ago
    Many drivers (in NYC anyway) are members of online discussion forums, so they are connecting already. I read many a multi-hundred page threads of drivers ranting and deciding to strike several years ago over Uber forcing black cars to accept UberX rides. Them joining together is a major reason Uber backtracked that policy per Uber’s public statement about it.
tareqak 8y ago
I'd argue that what people need is a "meta"-union with gig-specific chapters. Regardless of the type of employment, all people are human beings with needs, desires, and limitations. You could argue that government and political parties are supposed to be just that, but here we are.
- ismail 8y ago
  See the case study of Nidan. They setup unions in India for informal workers. A union of unions so to speak.the centre that did the case study is one of the best to understand Systems change http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_SF17_Case_Studies_02_Nidan_.pdf http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_SF17_Case_Studies_02_Nidan_...
- worldsayshi 8y ago
  Yes! Meta unions should be there for managing strike funds. This infrastructure seems like something that could be packaged in a reusable way. I don't think this should be part of the political establishment at all. Just as corporations should be kept separate from the state. The mechanics of labour unions are quite different.

opportune 8y ago

Some would say this is the killer-app of gig platforms - the picket lines and scabs are almost invisible, and workers are completely disconnected from each other unless they seek each other out. Makes organization and striking very hard

tajen 8y ago
Honest question: Is there any upside to the organization of strikes? I’m from France and what I see is mostly people in a position of blackmailing society do strike. To the question of whether it improves working conditions, it seems as if it improved them, but at the expense of 1. underrepresented colleagues and 2. the taxpayer. If underrepresented colleagues (whom I used to be part of before I quit) are any meaningful part, then the results of strikes are at the expense of the majority of society. It’s great that I have 7.5 weeks of holidays, but they are also mandatory... so much that a net salary for an engineer is 2000€ net pm. It’s like... a joke. “Everyone is poor” is France, compared to other countries I’ve lived in with fewer taxes and friction. Strikes, more than ever, seem to be the imposition on weaker workers of the force of stronger workers. The benefits of the strikes are taken at the expense of all workers. It doesn’t improve the economy and adds friction, slowing down the economy. And what the new economy brings to me is so much more reliability of services, since they’re not on strike every second day or shut down at 3.30pm every first day. I like the no-strike economy, because I see what people suffer through in the strike economy. Besides, parties who organize strikes also organize to shut down free speech events, so strike isn’t compatible with free speech. Is the fact that Uber doesn’t have strikes a pure bonus of the platform?

walterbell 8y ago

Some Uber drivers also use the Lyft app. Would they use a “DriveTogether” app for labor organizing? Is digital labor organizing more or less work than old-school organizing of workers in factories across a large geographic region? Edit: looks like this is now legally permitted, https://tcf.org/content/report/virtual-labor-organizing/ https://tcf.org/content/report/virtual-labor-organizing/ ”Due to a little-known, but far-reaching change made by the NLRB last year, virtual labor organizing by employees is now sanctioned by law in many situations and could possibly be transformative in the workplace ... NLRB recently reversed years of legal precedent that allowed employers to ban the use of workplace e-mail for organizing or communicating about the terms and conditions of work. Last year, in its decision in Purple Communications, Inc., the NLRB emphatically endorsed the right of employees to use workplace e-mail for such activities. It held that “employee use of email for statutorily protected communications on nonworking time must presumptively be permitted by employers who have chosen to give employees access to their email systems.” The NLRB added that: “Employees’ need to share information and opinions is particularly acute in the context of an initial organizing campaign.”

opportune 8y ago
One major barrier is that you don’t have to meet any of your coworkers unless you explicitly seek them out, and your employer certainly isn’t going to help you. So yes I would say that labor organizing across a gig platform is considerably harder than for factories across geographic regions. The social fabric is a lot harder to construct
- sleepychu 8y ago
  Can anyone who drives for Uber/Lyft/Grab chime in here? Do you know your peers?
- jsjohnst 8y ago
  Many drivers (in NYC anyway) are members of online discussion forums, so they are connecting already. I read many a multi-hundred page threads of drivers ranting and deciding to strike several years ago over Uber forcing black cars to accept UberX rides. Them joining together is a major reason Uber backtracked that policy per Uber’s public statement about it.

tareqak 8y ago

I'd argue that what people need is a "meta"-union with gig-specific chapters. Regardless of the type of employment, all people are human beings with needs, desires, and limitations. You could argue that government and political parties are supposed to be just that, but here we are.

ismail 8y ago
See the case study of Nidan. They setup unions in India for informal workers. A union of unions so to speak.the centre that did the case study is one of the best to understand Systems change http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_SF17_Case_Studies_02_Nidan_.pdf http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_SF17_Case_Studies_02_Nidan_...
worldsayshi 8y ago
Yes! Meta unions should be there for managing strike funds. This infrastructure seems like something that could be packaged in a reusable way. I don't think this should be part of the political establishment at all. Just as corporations should be kept separate from the state. The mechanics of labour unions are quite different.