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Venezuelans Skeptical of Maduro's Latest Measures to Salvage Economy

45 points by crypto-jeronimo 8y ago

neurotech1 8y ago
Non-Paywall: http://archive.is/R57av http://archive.is/R57av
prolikewh0a 8y ago
PSUV really needs to replace Maduro with someone more competent.
- 23443463453 8y ago
  Ah, yes, the mythical competent socialist. What is it with people that they support the theft of things from some in order to give it to others. That's slavery, no matter whether you think someone else deserves the fruits of of others' labor more or not. It's a vile system no matter whether it's called socialism, democratic socialism, national socialism, communism, progressivism, liberalism, it's vile and heinous.
- alacombe 8y ago
  Why would you blame the head of the system rather than the underlying ideology ?
  - SllX 8y ago
    Regardless of which you blame, if you intend to change ideologies (not saying Venezuela will), then you take out the head of the current system.
    - roenxi 8y ago
      Clarifying the mechanism here - a sign that the ideology has changed is that the head of state changes. The Head of State generally has a substantial power base in the system in order to hold their seat. If they are ousted, it is a sign their power base has waned and the system changed.
      - cryptonector 8y ago
        But changing the head is not sufficient to change the system.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    What underlying ideology? Socialism? There's nothing that says socialism or some form of it can't work.
    - tartuffe78 8y ago
      How many times do countries have to collapse before we can be sure?
      - Maybestring 8y ago
        This would be a better argument if a major world power hadn't actively undermined all attempts at socialism.
        antidesitter 8y ago
        To be clear, are you saying the United States was responsible for socialism’s failures?
        Maybestring 8y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... See the cold war era for a quick rundown of US interference with socialist governments. I'm saying... when the US instigates and funds a civil war in country X, you can't then say X's government lost power because of their economic policies.
        antidesitter 8y ago
        That's dodging the question. Do you deny the connection between socialist policies and their economic consequences?
      - tomjakubowski 8y ago
        Clock's been ticking for a long while now on Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. When will you give up waiting for these socialist states to collapse?
LarryDarrell 8y ago
The situation in Venezuela makes my heart hurt. Reading about how Hugo Chavez destroyed PDVSA through ignorance and incompetence is a real life example of how much damage a populist strongman can do.
- alacombe 8y ago
  why "populist" ? I don't think the starving Venezuelans condone the system very much. Venezuelan policies are at foremost socialist.
  - misja111 8y ago
    The support for Chavez was immense, in particular amongst the poor Venezuelans.
    - cryptonector 8y ago
      Until it wasn't, thus making it necessary to resort to fake elections.
- Findeton 8y ago
  The problem is that many people believe government is the solution to everything. Surprisingly this is most true in latin-american countries where the government is not that strong. What I see when I visit those countries is that some sort of government is always there, but not the official one. Frontiers there are a wish list and the few that pay taxes get to pay it in the name of everyone else...
- Carlton87 8y ago
  Replace strongman with socialist and your statement makes much more sense.
  - SllX 8y ago
    A strongman socialist is still a strongman.
jayess 8y ago
Looking at Maduro and the clowns he surrounds himself with makes it clear that it's really just a bunch of idiots running things. Chavez was a died in the wool marxist, but the failure of that ideology (as it always does fail) has lead to a massive brain drain. Now the tenth-tier morons are in charge, nominally supporting socialism but really it's just a narco/klepto state.
woodandsteel 8y ago
I wonder what is going to happen over the next year or two. Will there be a coup or revolution to overthrow the government, a bloody civil war? Or perhaps Maduro will crack down and turn the country into a full-scale Stalinist dictatorship in order to prevent this from happening. It seems there will be some sort of radical change, the question is what. A key question here is if the security forces will remain loyal to the government. I wonder how they are making out, like are they getting enough food, and do the leaders think the present regime can be sustained over the long term.
csomar 8y ago
How come the society has yet to collapse if the salaries can't cover a few days of spending. I mean this reaches a critical point, as far as I see it: At some wage, the employee will bail out. Because it cost more to do the job (transportation/food) than the job pays. Apparently, this is not the case. As the workers are still going for work. The equation is certainly bad (I have no doubt about that) but it has not reached a critical point where everything collapses (Examples could be Libya and Syria). To see for yourself, go to Caracas on Google maps and turn traffic on. Try that on Damascus.
- jose_zap 8y ago
  The one thing that I learned being a Venezuelan is that things can always get worse. It is easy to thing that there is a bottom for how bad things can go, but clearly that was just hopeful thinking. The situation is a thousand times worse than when I left 6 years ago, an I would certainly consider what they are living now as a total collapse of society, yet I'm also sure that it could get even worse.
  - csomar 8y ago
    I’d say disintegrating but not collpased yet. The government is still sustaining itself. There is still Internet and cars driving around. Yes, it can get way worse. The possible bottom is way deeper. I hope the US or UN intervene before that.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  I don't understand Venezuela. Really. I've lived through the 10000% inflation times at Brazil, but that's still 2 orders of magnitude shorter than their, and looks like a completely different reality. What I can say is that society collapse is not a binary thing. Near 1/3 of Venezuela's population already escaped the country, with more gone each day. I'd also bet crime is at huge levels, but there isn't any data I would trust. I imagine that if you are far from a border there isn't much you can do except continuing going to work. It's not like one can just throw their arm up and say "I'm done with society, I won't take part in it anymore". I also imagine that a large part of their real economy nowadays runs on US Dollars, the rest probably runs on Peruvian Peso, Brazilian Real, and toilet paper. Besides, until this week gasoline was almost free. So the one thing I would expect to find there is transit.

neurotech1 8y ago

Non-Paywall: http://archive.is/R57av http://archive.is/R57av

prolikewh0a 8y ago

PSUV really needs to replace Maduro with someone more competent.

23443463453 8y ago
Ah, yes, the mythical competent socialist. What is it with people that they support the theft of things from some in order to give it to others. That's slavery, no matter whether you think someone else deserves the fruits of of others' labor more or not. It's a vile system no matter whether it's called socialism, democratic socialism, national socialism, communism, progressivism, liberalism, it's vile and heinous.
alacombe 8y ago
Why would you blame the head of the system rather than the underlying ideology ?
- SllX 8y ago
  Regardless of which you blame, if you intend to change ideologies (not saying Venezuela will), then you take out the head of the current system.
  - roenxi 8y ago
    Clarifying the mechanism here - a sign that the ideology has changed is that the head of state changes. The Head of State generally has a substantial power base in the system in order to hold their seat. If they are ousted, it is a sign their power base has waned and the system changed.
    - cryptonector 8y ago
      But changing the head is not sufficient to change the system.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  What underlying ideology? Socialism? There's nothing that says socialism or some form of it can't work.
  - tartuffe78 8y ago
    How many times do countries have to collapse before we can be sure?
    - Maybestring 8y ago
      This would be a better argument if a major world power hadn't actively undermined all attempts at socialism.
      - antidesitter 8y ago
        To be clear, are you saying the United States was responsible for socialism’s failures?
        Maybestring 8y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... See the cold war era for a quick rundown of US interference with socialist governments. I'm saying... when the US instigates and funds a civil war in country X, you can't then say X's government lost power because of their economic policies.
        antidesitter 8y ago
        That's dodging the question. Do you deny the connection between socialist policies and their economic consequences?
    - tomjakubowski 8y ago
      Clock's been ticking for a long while now on Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. When will you give up waiting for these socialist states to collapse?

LarryDarrell 8y ago

The situation in Venezuela makes my heart hurt. Reading about how Hugo Chavez destroyed PDVSA through ignorance and incompetence is a real life example of how much damage a populist strongman can do.

alacombe 8y ago
why "populist" ? I don't think the starving Venezuelans condone the system very much. Venezuelan policies are at foremost socialist.
- misja111 8y ago
  The support for Chavez was immense, in particular amongst the poor Venezuelans.
  - cryptonector 8y ago
    Until it wasn't, thus making it necessary to resort to fake elections.
Findeton 8y ago
The problem is that many people believe government is the solution to everything. Surprisingly this is most true in latin-american countries where the government is not that strong. What I see when I visit those countries is that some sort of government is always there, but not the official one. Frontiers there are a wish list and the few that pay taxes get to pay it in the name of everyone else...
Carlton87 8y ago
Replace strongman with socialist and your statement makes much more sense.
- SllX 8y ago
  A strongman socialist is still a strongman.

jayess 8y ago

Looking at Maduro and the clowns he surrounds himself with makes it clear that it's really just a bunch of idiots running things. Chavez was a died in the wool marxist, but the failure of that ideology (as it always does fail) has lead to a massive brain drain. Now the tenth-tier morons are in charge, nominally supporting socialism but really it's just a narco/klepto state.

woodandsteel 8y ago

I wonder what is going to happen over the next year or two. Will there be a coup or revolution to overthrow the government, a bloody civil war? Or perhaps Maduro will crack down and turn the country into a full-scale Stalinist dictatorship in order to prevent this from happening. It seems there will be some sort of radical change, the question is what. A key question here is if the security forces will remain loyal to the government. I wonder how they are making out, like are they getting enough food, and do the leaders think the present regime can be sustained over the long term.

csomar 8y ago

How come the society has yet to collapse if the salaries can't cover a few days of spending. I mean this reaches a critical point, as far as I see it: At some wage, the employee will bail out. Because it cost more to do the job (transportation/food) than the job pays. Apparently, this is not the case. As the workers are still going for work. The equation is certainly bad (I have no doubt about that) but it has not reached a critical point where everything collapses (Examples could be Libya and Syria). To see for yourself, go to Caracas on Google maps and turn traffic on. Try that on Damascus.

jose_zap 8y ago
The one thing that I learned being a Venezuelan is that things can always get worse. It is easy to thing that there is a bottom for how bad things can go, but clearly that was just hopeful thinking. The situation is a thousand times worse than when I left 6 years ago, an I would certainly consider what they are living now as a total collapse of society, yet I'm also sure that it could get even worse.
- csomar 8y ago
  I’d say disintegrating but not collpased yet. The government is still sustaining itself. There is still Internet and cars driving around. Yes, it can get way worse. The possible bottom is way deeper. I hope the US or UN intervene before that.
marcosdumay 8y ago
I don't understand Venezuela. Really. I've lived through the 10000% inflation times at Brazil, but that's still 2 orders of magnitude shorter than their, and looks like a completely different reality. What I can say is that society collapse is not a binary thing. Near 1/3 of Venezuela's population already escaped the country, with more gone each day. I'd also bet crime is at huge levels, but there isn't any data I would trust. I imagine that if you are far from a border there isn't much you can do except continuing going to work. It's not like one can just throw their arm up and say "I'm done with society, I won't take part in it anymore". I also imagine that a large part of their real economy nowadays runs on US Dollars, the rest probably runs on Peruvian Peso, Brazilian Real, and toilet paper. Besides, until this week gasoline was almost free. So the one thing I would expect to find there is transit.