8 ms·

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially

by uissna 8y ago

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech. You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering (at the high end) and then migrant farming and illegal immigrant factory workers (at the low end).

abtinf 8y ago
> shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Those immigrants are a helluva lot more American than you.
- t3soro 8y ago
  > meaningless words
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing. Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their average salary whereas all of the top domestic sponsors are paying significantly more. I'm sure the medians are even worse. So all a US company has to do is play the contractor shuffle and get cheaper labor. Also note that there are no listings for people with master's or doctorate degrees. H1B is clearly not being used for its intended effect. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
  - deleted 8y ago
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  - conanbatt 8y ago
    The effect on wages is inconclusive based on the salary of the people that come in. Its possible the 90k range puts more downward pressure on salaries than the 150 that come about. They all have effects on wages but also create value for the whole. The more immigrants come the more total salaries paid for the workers is, even if the mean is lower.
  - tom_ 8y ago
    I’m on an iPad so I can’t check, but i think the underlying data for H1-B info comes from here: https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm (click ‘Disclosure data’, download enormous PERM spreadsheet)
- leereeves 8y ago
  The downside is that they have no bargaining power because their continued stay in the US is at the whim of their employer. That good for the employer, not good for workers.
  - nothrabannosir 8y ago
    That’s a consequence of the US’s particular implementation of talent visas (H1B being tied to employer), not an argument against attracting high skilled workers. (I think most people on this forum would agree H1B needs reform ?)
    - akshat_h 8y ago
      As an H1B, while there is employer tie in at some level, I am free to change jobs. What I am not free to do is to stop working. That fear certainly does indirectly result in lesser job mobility. For example, opportunities like say going to Recurse Center, or having the freedom to have a decently long sabbatical etc. even with a 6 month emergency fund are not available. The other thing is no freedom to pursue any other job, i.e working on a startup idea during the evenings or weekend, or writing a technical book etc. for money is not allowed. There are certainly issues with the H1b system, i.e. the lottery, low salary cap, multiple applications per person to game the system etc, but employer stickiness is not one of them, at least for people who are qualified. The major problem is due to long wait for green card for people from China, and almost impossible wait for people from India. My friends who were not born in these two countries have been able to get a green card within about a year, after getting an H1B, while I am looking at a more than 20-30 year wait.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    That is still better for the workers than not having such opportunities and working in their home countries. Isnt that a Win-Win situation?
    - deleted 8y ago
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- hart_russell 8y ago
  Yes, but you're not addressing the point that immigrant workers can be paid less for the same work.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    That is irrelevant. They get paid more compared to what immigrants would get in their home countries. And if you had to pay them as much then they would lose the edge during hiring - it is part of why they are also chosen.
    - briandear 8y ago
      However wage arbitrage is specifically against the intent and the letter of visa programs. It’s to fill actual shortages. If you can’t find a Python dev at $70k per year but you could find one at $100k per year, that isn’t a “shortage” — yet such “shortages” are what gets used to rationalize H1-B expansion.
      - rmrfrmrf 8y ago
        I'd like to add that part of the factor that's driving down wages is the fact that workers from countries with cheap/subsidized higher-level education can get a bachelor's degree for under $5000 (total), meaning that a student from a foreign country getting a master's degree from an American university graduates with around 1/3 the total debt that an American student would. That advantage makes it more feasible to take lower paying jobs in the first place, thus broadening the talent pool, which inherently drives wages down.
        flyinglizard 8y ago
        That also means other countries subsidize the education of the US workforce, which from US perspective is not a bad thing.
      - conanbatt 8y ago
        By that definition there is never a shortage of any labor of any kind.
- deleted 8y ago
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- yanslookup 8y ago
  This is my exact argument against h1b, but something tells me you didn't mean it that way. The fact is if we want to truly attract the best and brightest we need to give them citizenship and pay them for their superior skills. As it is now we aren't attracting the best and brightest but the slightly skilled and willing to take a gamble and endure the cruelty of our immigration system. These are typically young people which exacerbates the agism problem in tech.
- briandear 8y ago
  If they are actually “brilliant.” Some Windows sysadmin a year out of school working for Infosys is typically not your future Google founder. If they are actually brilliant, there are visas for that and it isn’t H1-B.
- nradov 8y ago
  The whole concept of "top talent" is a myth. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myth https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myt...
- Spooky23 8y ago
  I agree — the typical path is the abusive H1 system, which is dangled as a carrot by outsourceds in India to retain talent in hopes of getting an assignment here. It’s a form of indentured labor that should be forbidden. My grandparents were all skilled blue collar workers who needed a sponsor and a medical exam to enter and eventually get citizenship in the 1940s. There’s no reason that skilled labor from anywhere should not be able to immigrate here on the same terms.
Spooky23 8y ago
The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. No H1? No problem, move the function offshore.
- dangero 8y ago
  That's not absolutist true, but this is the type of study I would like the government to invest in with my tax dollars. We should know how often this is the outcome.
- ganfortran 8y ago
  Already happened. My company has sent notice to us that international hired employees are preferentially located to Canada and other sites instead of US, since it is difficult to get a visa here. People are selfish, so I don't blame them for want to close the door and keep the outsiders outside so they can have a bigger share of the pie. But don't expect to see that happen either, companies nowadays are much more powerful than individuals and they are very nimble, they will go to places where cost is lower, this won't change a bit, it is in their blood. So to immigrants coming to US, don't really put much hope in spending decades waiting to get permit to not in living in fear of throwing out. Doesn't worth it. And the resentment towards immigrants is worsening everyday, unless you happen to have certain skin tone. So earn your bucks, and save more, when the time comes take your life and skill elsewhere, life is too short to just wait in vain and hope for the best, act swiftly and you will be happier ;)
- flukus 8y ago
  > The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. If this was the only thing it would have gone offshore more than a decade ago. The reason is hasn't gone offshore is because the results are terrible for a number of reasons, with precious few success stories. It is a tried and failed technique to cut software costs.
  - mavelikara 8y ago
    Remember, the engineers who work on the top-tier SV firms will also be going offshore. With that talent pool abroad, many more offshore projects than now will be successful. Also, even now India exports $100B+ worth of software services to US. It is not as if every project offshored is producing "terrible results".
gerdesj 8y ago
America first or people first?
- hart_russell 8y ago
  If the company falls under US jurisdiction, it's incumbent upon policy makers to put Americans first
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    Why not hire the best no matter where they come from? I never understand why locals should get preferential treatment. Companies do business, not philanthropy.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Companies follow the law of the land, written by government for the benefit of its citizens (and not everyone can be a citizen; resource limits, cultural integration, those such issues, see the EU for examples of those challenges and why they limit economic migrants). Companies should obey the law, or leave and be prohibited from operating in the jurisdiction (China does this successfully). Edit: My apologies for reiterating this here (I mention it in a child comment), I don’t want to be verbose but I also don’t want to comment all over the place and risk a throttling flag: If you are a company and relocate, a country has many tools at it’s disposal to retaliate, and they should be used when necessary (see how the US almost drove ZTE to insolvency).
      - ekianjo 8y ago
        So are you fine if Cisco relocates most of their operations in India for example? Because companies can move, and have done so many times in the past 30 years. That is basically what such restrictions lead to.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        I am, and I am fine with tariffing their products if they do so, or going so far as to invalidate their patents or IP (as India does with some pharmaceuticals). China just plain ol shuts you out of their market entirely! A company only exists because a nation state allows it. That formation can be revoked at any time.
fooker 8y ago
>is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans Ah, wonders of the free market. ;) Do you honestly think Google/Apple/Microsoft/Facebook/etc hire foreigners because they have to pay them less? The legal costs of hiring and maintaining them easily adds up to 20-30k $ per year.
- deleted 8y ago
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- ct520 8y ago
  My answer for the industry and not cherry pick companies as example. Yes, without a doubt.
- deleted 8y ago
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- learc83 8y ago
  It's harder for them to switch jobs, and depending on where they are in the process of applying for a green card, they may have to restart if they do switch. That kind of "loyalty" is easily worth 20k-30k for a lot of companies.
  - refurb 8y ago
    But they can always go home, there is nothing to stop that. So I would argue the loyalty they buy isn’t worth much.
    - learc83 8y ago
      And take a massive pay cut? Even among rich countries and even for underpaid H-1B workers, tech salaries are generally much higher in the US, and most of them don't come from rich countries. Clearly you can see there is a difference between what a company needs to do to keep an H-1B employee from leaving the country, and what they need to do to keep a permanent resident employee from switching jobs?
toast_coder 8y ago
You think this only effects IT? You think salary negotiations are somehow immune to those same price pressures when we are dealing with the ppl who mow lawns, pick produce, and clean bathrooms?
- dmix 8y ago
  The OP likely is talking about tech because it's what he knows. But generally, as a Canadian who has hired immigration lawyers and knows the US immigration process well, you are never getting into the US to "mow lawns, pick produce, and clean bathrooms"... almost all the long term Visas require an advanced degree (4yrs of university) or equivalent in experience in an industry in high demand (doctors, engineers, etc). You may be mistaking illegal immigration with legal.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    That’s true of certain visas. There are a variety of different visas. I grew up next to an orchard that almost exclusively used Jamaican guest workers to pick apples and other fruit. Same thing with horse tracks, etc. There is no farm operating at any significant scale that isn’t using migrant labor, mostly legal.
- untog 8y ago
  The OP seems to be talking specifically about the H1B visa, which is for speciality occupations. Produce pickers need not apply.
  - jl2718 8y ago
    There is a website that lists them all. You’d be surprised to see how many H1Bs get paid less than $30k/yr.
DrJokepu 8y ago
> is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Just to be clear: people on H-1B are not immigrants as it is a non-immigrant visa. They only become immigrants if and when they adjust status and get a green card at which point none of the limitations you listed will apply anymore.
- learc83 8y ago
  >They only become immigrants if and when they adjust status and get a green card at which point none of the limitations you listed will apply anymore. But that process takes years--during that time all of those limitations do apply. And once they do apply, changing employers can reset the application process, adding yet another disincentive to changing jobs. Also since tech salaries are so much higher in the US than nearly anywhere else, most H-1B workers want to stay in the US for a significant length of time (even if they don't plan to stay forever)--during that time it is harder for them to switch jobs than it is for permanent residents.
- deleted 8y ago
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- screye 8y ago
  Green cards take 20+ years now a days. It isn't a viable option anymore .
imbusy111 8y ago
You seem to be delusional thinking that there is such a thing as an American. USA is the land of immigrants and as long as the best people come to US, it is the place to be. Ban the immigrants and the country loses its edge.
- ImNotBeingADick 8y ago
  ... Wouldn't you think that jobs should go to American citizens, before out sourcing and bringing everyones wages down?
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Why would American citizenship be an indicator of deservingness? > everyones Why aren't foreigners in the category of "everyone"?
- gedy 8y ago
  > You seem to be delusional thinking that there is such a thing as an American. You seem to forget that there is citizenship.
  - imbusy111 8y ago
    There is citizenship, it gives you more rights than an immigrant has. But even then you are just a child of an immigrant or N-th generation immigrant, where N is not that big.
- dang 8y ago
  No personal swipes on HN, please.
throwaway917100 8y ago
There are a lot of immigrants in other fields are well. Sales maybe not as the skill required for sales is very hard to measure (maybe thats why). Marketing: High level marketing executives are transfered to US regularly. Also I maybe wrong but they can come under the artist visa if they are related to anything artistic and don't need H1B. Teaching: High school salaries are pathetic and high schools wont even apply for an H1B. A lot of professors in good universities are immigrants. A lot researchers in Top universities are also immigrants. Law : The problem is that you have to do your law degree here to get entry into law, but I have seen a lot of immigrants doing that. Not in your list but Medicine: A lot of people are in medicine as well even though they have to take an exam (? or something) to see if they are trained according to US standards. Tech has most number of immigrants because large tech companies are headquartered in US, thats it. For example, a lot of doctors go to UK, because demand and NIH. I know a lot of mechanical and chemical engineers being hired by Schlum (even though its technically not a US company). Go to any US university and you will see a lot of immigrants in any technical fields training and have pretty good jobs lined up for them after graduation.
mvc 8y ago
> I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech Cry me a river. Do you also complain about internal migration towards cities like San Francisco and Boston. It's the same principal at play. Tech workers from all over the US flock to cities where the wealth is. Tech workers from around the world flock to the US because that's where the wealth is. It's not because we like stealing your job. Developing software is an investment and the people that fund the investment seem to prefer (at least the core of the team) to live nearby. But if you put a hard-stop on immigration. Or if it gets too expensive for people to live nearby, they might just start looking for the talent wherever it is like @dhh. Bring it on.
- hayksaakian 8y ago
  The difference between a fair market where immigrants can compete for American jobs and the current state of affairs is massive. The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. Big tech can leverage deportation against you because you can't "walk away" from a job offer with as low risk as an American could. "No immigration restrictions" and 100% immigration restritions are both better solutions than the status quo. I personally believe more lenient immigration laws will help everyone.
  - plicense 8y ago
    > The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. FYI - you can switch jobs in H1B. I don't live in the USA, but everyone I know who is from my home country (India) and is on a H1B and in tech, have switched jobs atleast once (mostly between FB, Google, Twitter, LinkedIn, Microsoft and Amazon). OTOH, if you're talking about L1 Visa (which is NOT a lottery system), then everyone I know who is on L1 (interestingly they are all at Amazon and Microsoft), then I agree - none of them have switched jobs so far.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    I wouldn't say 100% immigration restrictions would be better. Certainly not for any immigrant. The H1B cap is ridicolously low. 65.000 a year for a country that has 350 million people, in a 7 billion world.
gnu8 8y ago
How can we help the Infosys workers unionize and demand the same wages that American workers get? This would solve everyone's problem.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech The immigration debate suffers from overgeneralisation. Illegal immigration is a different problem from legal immigration. And short-term skilled migrants are unlike long-term skilled immigrants. Short-term migrants, i.e. those with no intention of staying in the U.S. long-term, probably depress American wages. Skilled immigrants aiming for residency, and certain classes of unskilled illegal immigrants, appear to add net value. (Exhibit A of our system's self-destructiveness are international students at American universities being refused residency on graduation.)
- Bucephalus355 8y ago
  I think there are differences. However over the last 20 years, most immigration, of both kinds, have been about one thing: reduced labor costs. At the risk of downvotes, I’m going to include something Steve Bannon said on MSNBC last night about legal immigration. He made this point that it makes no sense for America to keep letting the best and brightest of the world in / draining them from everywhere else. Why aren’t we refusing the really good immigrants if anything? Those are the people we want in their home countries setting up fair and stable systems. Having them here is, after a certain point, kind of greedy. Also free trade was supposed to fix this by also requiring companies to adhere to strict safety and labor laws, which would make labor prices more even. It never happened.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Why aren’t we refusing the really good immigrants if anything? Steve Jobs' father was a Syrian immigrant [1]. It is doutbtful that Steve Jobs--or Elon Musk or Satya Nadella--would have been as successful in their original countries as they've been here. As a species, we all win from giving our best and brightest access to America's stable institutions and rich economy. More to the point, I find it difficult to believe Steve Bannon suddenly cares about other countries. His line about the overabundance of brown-skinned executives in Silicon Valley is telling enough.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
duxup 8y ago
If the worker visa system is supposed to bring in critical workers we don't have.... then just set a nice high price / minimum salary. If they're that critical companies should pay a premium. If not, I guess it's not that big a deal.
nortonace 8y ago
i love all this talk of illegal's these days /s.
seem_2211 8y ago
Sales recruiter here: yep, companies will not sponsor visas for salespeople at all. Also, New Zealander working on getting his Greencard: it's a real bummer seeing what some of the bigger tech companies have done with the H1B visa in the past 10 years. They've really abused it and ruined it for everyone.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  Why not increase the visa quota, or better yet, remove it altogether, since all the H1b Visas are people with job offers, with an employer that wants them. Also, you cant get an H1B for sales. Ask the U.S. Government about that, they put that restriction.
conanbatt 8y ago
> The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech. We will build the most fantastic firewall ever made, and we will make the foreign engineers pay for it!
rtpg 8y ago
If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the US with the same level of freedoms granted to citizens (including the “right” to get poached at a higher salary) would only help the industry and those within it Another thing: if software engineers weren’t afraid of unionizing, then companies would have a hell of a lot harder time slowly replacing you with cheaper counterparts. Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem
- conanbatt 8y ago
  If software engineers unionized, say goodbye to foreign software engineers.
- TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
  Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times a year, but that's only because I genuinely like them and I enjoy spending time in meatspace with them. But I never felt like my job was impaired by having people at different time zones. If anything, it was awesome! I'd put up a PR before going to sleep and by the time I went in to work the next day it would be ready to merge. If any serious discussion had to happen, we'd just use video chat to resolve big issues. What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.
  - jahaja 8y ago
    > What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing various problems on the job. * Having influence backed up by actual power. * Solidarity.
ForHackernews 8y ago
> You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering That's because unlike software engineering, all of those other jobs rely heavily on [natural] language and cultural fluency.

by uissna 8y ago

abtinf 8y ago

> shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Those immigrants are a helluva lot more American than you.

t3soro 8y ago
> meaningless words

fjsolwmv 8y ago

Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing. Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their average salary whereas all of the top domestic sponsors are paying significantly more. I'm sure the medians are even worse. So all a US company has to do is play the contractor shuffle and get cheaper labor. Also note that there are no listings for people with master's or doctorate degrees. H1B is clearly not being used for its intended effect. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- conanbatt 8y ago
  The effect on wages is inconclusive based on the salary of the people that come in. Its possible the 90k range puts more downward pressure on salaries than the 150 that come about. They all have effects on wages but also create value for the whole. The more immigrants come the more total salaries paid for the workers is, even if the mean is lower.
- tom_ 8y ago
  I’m on an iPad so I can’t check, but i think the underlying data for H1-B info comes from here: https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm (click ‘Disclosure data’, download enormous PERM spreadsheet)
leereeves 8y ago
The downside is that they have no bargaining power because their continued stay in the US is at the whim of their employer. That good for the employer, not good for workers.
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  That’s a consequence of the US’s particular implementation of talent visas (H1B being tied to employer), not an argument against attracting high skilled workers. (I think most people on this forum would agree H1B needs reform ?)
  - akshat_h 8y ago
    As an H1B, while there is employer tie in at some level, I am free to change jobs. What I am not free to do is to stop working. That fear certainly does indirectly result in lesser job mobility. For example, opportunities like say going to Recurse Center, or having the freedom to have a decently long sabbatical etc. even with a 6 month emergency fund are not available. The other thing is no freedom to pursue any other job, i.e working on a startup idea during the evenings or weekend, or writing a technical book etc. for money is not allowed. There are certainly issues with the H1b system, i.e. the lottery, low salary cap, multiple applications per person to game the system etc, but employer stickiness is not one of them, at least for people who are qualified. The major problem is due to long wait for green card for people from China, and almost impossible wait for people from India. My friends who were not born in these two countries have been able to get a green card within about a year, after getting an H1B, while I am looking at a more than 20-30 year wait.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  That is still better for the workers than not having such opportunities and working in their home countries. Isnt that a Win-Win situation?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
hart_russell 8y ago
Yes, but you're not addressing the point that immigrant workers can be paid less for the same work.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  That is irrelevant. They get paid more compared to what immigrants would get in their home countries. And if you had to pay them as much then they would lose the edge during hiring - it is part of why they are also chosen.
  - briandear 8y ago
    However wage arbitrage is specifically against the intent and the letter of visa programs. It’s to fill actual shortages. If you can’t find a Python dev at $70k per year but you could find one at $100k per year, that isn’t a “shortage” — yet such “shortages” are what gets used to rationalize H1-B expansion.
    - rmrfrmrf 8y ago
      I'd like to add that part of the factor that's driving down wages is the fact that workers from countries with cheap/subsidized higher-level education can get a bachelor's degree for under $5000 (total), meaning that a student from a foreign country getting a master's degree from an American university graduates with around 1/3 the total debt that an American student would. That advantage makes it more feasible to take lower paying jobs in the first place, thus broadening the talent pool, which inherently drives wages down.
      - flyinglizard 8y ago
        That also means other countries subsidize the education of the US workforce, which from US perspective is not a bad thing.
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      By that definition there is never a shortage of any labor of any kind.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
yanslookup 8y ago
This is my exact argument against h1b, but something tells me you didn't mean it that way. The fact is if we want to truly attract the best and brightest we need to give them citizenship and pay them for their superior skills. As it is now we aren't attracting the best and brightest but the slightly skilled and willing to take a gamble and endure the cruelty of our immigration system. These are typically young people which exacerbates the agism problem in tech.
briandear 8y ago
If they are actually “brilliant.” Some Windows sysadmin a year out of school working for Infosys is typically not your future Google founder. If they are actually brilliant, there are visas for that and it isn’t H1-B.
nradov 8y ago
The whole concept of "top talent" is a myth. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myth https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/07/22/the-talent-myt...
Spooky23 8y ago
I agree — the typical path is the abusive H1 system, which is dangled as a carrot by outsourceds in India to retain talent in hopes of getting an assignment here. It’s a form of indentured labor that should be forbidden. My grandparents were all skilled blue collar workers who needed a sponsor and a medical exam to enter and eventually get citizenship in the 1940s. There’s no reason that skilled labor from anywhere should not be able to immigrate here on the same terms.

Spooky23 8y ago

The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. No H1? No problem, move the function offshore.

dangero 8y ago
That's not absolutist true, but this is the type of study I would like the government to invest in with my tax dollars. We should know how often this is the outcome.
ganfortran 8y ago
Already happened. My company has sent notice to us that international hired employees are preferentially located to Canada and other sites instead of US, since it is difficult to get a visa here. People are selfish, so I don't blame them for want to close the door and keep the outsiders outside so they can have a bigger share of the pie. But don't expect to see that happen either, companies nowadays are much more powerful than individuals and they are very nimble, they will go to places where cost is lower, this won't change a bit, it is in their blood. So to immigrants coming to US, don't really put much hope in spending decades waiting to get permit to not in living in fear of throwing out. Doesn't worth it. And the resentment towards immigrants is worsening everyday, unless you happen to have certain skin tone. So earn your bucks, and save more, when the time comes take your life and skill elsewhere, life is too short to just wait in vain and hope for the best, act swiftly and you will be happier ;)
flukus 8y ago
> The real secret is that this is the only thing that keeps tech onshore. If this was the only thing it would have gone offshore more than a decade ago. The reason is hasn't gone offshore is because the results are terrible for a number of reasons, with precious few success stories. It is a tried and failed technique to cut software costs.
- mavelikara 8y ago
  Remember, the engineers who work on the top-tier SV firms will also be going offshore. With that talent pool abroad, many more offshore projects than now will be successful. Also, even now India exports $100B+ worth of software services to US. It is not as if every project offshored is producing "terrible results".

gerdesj 8y ago

America first or people first?

hart_russell 8y ago
If the company falls under US jurisdiction, it's incumbent upon policy makers to put Americans first
- ekianjo 8y ago
  Why not hire the best no matter where they come from? I never understand why locals should get preferential treatment. Companies do business, not philanthropy.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Companies follow the law of the land, written by government for the benefit of its citizens (and not everyone can be a citizen; resource limits, cultural integration, those such issues, see the EU for examples of those challenges and why they limit economic migrants). Companies should obey the law, or leave and be prohibited from operating in the jurisdiction (China does this successfully). Edit: My apologies for reiterating this here (I mention it in a child comment), I don’t want to be verbose but I also don’t want to comment all over the place and risk a throttling flag: If you are a company and relocate, a country has many tools at it’s disposal to retaliate, and they should be used when necessary (see how the US almost drove ZTE to insolvency).
    - ekianjo 8y ago
      So are you fine if Cisco relocates most of their operations in India for example? Because companies can move, and have done so many times in the past 30 years. That is basically what such restrictions lead to.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        I am, and I am fine with tariffing their products if they do so, or going so far as to invalidate their patents or IP (as India does with some pharmaceuticals). China just plain ol shuts you out of their market entirely! A company only exists because a nation state allows it. That formation can be revoked at any time.

fooker 8y ago

>is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans Ah, wonders of the free market. ;) Do you honestly think Google/Apple/Microsoft/Facebook/etc hire foreigners because they have to pay them less? The legal costs of hiring and maintaining them easily adds up to 20-30k $ per year.

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ct520 8y ago
My answer for the industry and not cherry pick companies as example. Yes, without a doubt.
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learc83 8y ago
It's harder for them to switch jobs, and depending on where they are in the process of applying for a green card, they may have to restart if they do switch. That kind of "loyalty" is easily worth 20k-30k for a lot of companies.
- refurb 8y ago
  But they can always go home, there is nothing to stop that. So I would argue the loyalty they buy isn’t worth much.
  - learc83 8y ago
    And take a massive pay cut? Even among rich countries and even for underpaid H-1B workers, tech salaries are generally much higher in the US, and most of them don't come from rich countries. Clearly you can see there is a difference between what a company needs to do to keep an H-1B employee from leaving the country, and what they need to do to keep a permanent resident employee from switching jobs?

toast_coder 8y ago

You think this only effects IT? You think salary negotiations are somehow immune to those same price pressures when we are dealing with the ppl who mow lawns, pick produce, and clean bathrooms?

dmix 8y ago
The OP likely is talking about tech because it's what he knows. But generally, as a Canadian who has hired immigration lawyers and knows the US immigration process well, you are never getting into the US to "mow lawns, pick produce, and clean bathrooms"... almost all the long term Visas require an advanced degree (4yrs of university) or equivalent in experience in an industry in high demand (doctors, engineers, etc). You may be mistaking illegal immigration with legal.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  That’s true of certain visas. There are a variety of different visas. I grew up next to an orchard that almost exclusively used Jamaican guest workers to pick apples and other fruit. Same thing with horse tracks, etc. There is no farm operating at any significant scale that isn’t using migrant labor, mostly legal.
untog 8y ago
The OP seems to be talking specifically about the H1B visa, which is for speciality occupations. Produce pickers need not apply.
- jl2718 8y ago
  There is a website that lists them all. You’d be surprised to see how many H1Bs get paid less than $30k/yr.

DrJokepu 8y ago

> is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Just to be clear: people on H-1B are not immigrants as it is a non-immigrant visa. They only become immigrants if and when they adjust status and get a green card at which point none of the limitations you listed will apply anymore.

learc83 8y ago
>They only become immigrants if and when they adjust status and get a green card at which point none of the limitations you listed will apply anymore. But that process takes years--during that time all of those limitations do apply. And once they do apply, changing employers can reset the application process, adding yet another disincentive to changing jobs. Also since tech salaries are so much higher in the US than nearly anywhere else, most H-1B workers want to stay in the US for a significant length of time (even if they don't plan to stay forever)--during that time it is harder for them to switch jobs than it is for permanent residents.
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screye 8y ago
Green cards take 20+ years now a days. It isn't a viable option anymore .

imbusy111 8y ago

You seem to be delusional thinking that there is such a thing as an American. USA is the land of immigrants and as long as the best people come to US, it is the place to be. Ban the immigrants and the country loses its edge.

ImNotBeingADick 8y ago
... Wouldn't you think that jobs should go to American citizens, before out sourcing and bringing everyones wages down?
- closeparen 8y ago
  Why would American citizenship be an indicator of deservingness? > everyones Why aren't foreigners in the category of "everyone"?
gedy 8y ago
> You seem to be delusional thinking that there is such a thing as an American. You seem to forget that there is citizenship.
- imbusy111 8y ago
  There is citizenship, it gives you more rights than an immigrant has. But even then you are just a child of an immigrant or N-th generation immigrant, where N is not that big.
dang 8y ago
No personal swipes on HN, please.

throwaway917100 8y ago

There are a lot of immigrants in other fields are well. Sales maybe not as the skill required for sales is very hard to measure (maybe thats why). Marketing: High level marketing executives are transfered to US regularly. Also I maybe wrong but they can come under the artist visa if they are related to anything artistic and don't need H1B. Teaching: High school salaries are pathetic and high schools wont even apply for an H1B. A lot of professors in good universities are immigrants. A lot researchers in Top universities are also immigrants. Law : The problem is that you have to do your law degree here to get entry into law, but I have seen a lot of immigrants doing that. Not in your list but Medicine: A lot of people are in medicine as well even though they have to take an exam (? or something) to see if they are trained according to US standards. Tech has most number of immigrants because large tech companies are headquartered in US, thats it. For example, a lot of doctors go to UK, because demand and NIH. I know a lot of mechanical and chemical engineers being hired by Schlum (even though its technically not a US company). Go to any US university and you will see a lot of immigrants in any technical fields training and have pretty good jobs lined up for them after graduation.

mvc 8y ago

> I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech Cry me a river. Do you also complain about internal migration towards cities like San Francisco and Boston. It's the same principal at play. Tech workers from all over the US flock to cities where the wealth is. Tech workers from around the world flock to the US because that's where the wealth is. It's not because we like stealing your job. Developing software is an investment and the people that fund the investment seem to prefer (at least the core of the team) to live nearby. But if you put a hard-stop on immigration. Or if it gets too expensive for people to live nearby, they might just start looking for the talent wherever it is like @dhh. Bring it on.

hayksaakian 8y ago
The difference between a fair market where immigrants can compete for American jobs and the current state of affairs is massive. The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. Big tech can leverage deportation against you because you can't "walk away" from a job offer with as low risk as an American could. "No immigration restrictions" and 100% immigration restritions are both better solutions than the status quo. I personally believe more lenient immigration laws will help everyone.
- plicense 8y ago
  > The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. FYI - you can switch jobs in H1B. I don't live in the USA, but everyone I know who is from my home country (India) and is on a H1B and in tech, have switched jobs atleast once (mostly between FB, Google, Twitter, LinkedIn, Microsoft and Amazon). OTOH, if you're talking about L1 Visa (which is NOT a lottery system), then everyone I know who is on L1 (interestingly they are all at Amazon and Microsoft), then I agree - none of them have switched jobs so far.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I wouldn't say 100% immigration restrictions would be better. Certainly not for any immigrant. The H1B cap is ridicolously low. 65.000 a year for a country that has 350 million people, in a 7 billion world.

gnu8 8y ago

How can we help the Infosys workers unionize and demand the same wages that American workers get? This would solve everyone's problem.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech The immigration debate suffers from overgeneralisation. Illegal immigration is a different problem from legal immigration. And short-term skilled migrants are unlike long-term skilled immigrants. Short-term migrants, i.e. those with no intention of staying in the U.S. long-term, probably depress American wages. Skilled immigrants aiming for residency, and certain classes of unskilled illegal immigrants, appear to add net value. (Exhibit A of our system's self-destructiveness are international students at American universities being refused residency on graduation.)

Bucephalus355 8y ago
I think there are differences. However over the last 20 years, most immigration, of both kinds, have been about one thing: reduced labor costs. At the risk of downvotes, I’m going to include something Steve Bannon said on MSNBC last night about legal immigration. He made this point that it makes no sense for America to keep letting the best and brightest of the world in / draining them from everywhere else. Why aren’t we refusing the really good immigrants if anything? Those are the people we want in their home countries setting up fair and stable systems. Having them here is, after a certain point, kind of greedy. Also free trade was supposed to fix this by also requiring companies to adhere to strict safety and labor laws, which would make labor prices more even. It never happened.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Why aren’t we refusing the really good immigrants if anything? Steve Jobs' father was a Syrian immigrant [1]. It is doutbtful that Steve Jobs--or Elon Musk or Satya Nadella--would have been as successful in their original countries as they've been here. As a species, we all win from giving our best and brightest access to America's stable institutions and rich economy. More to the point, I find it difficult to believe Steve Bannon suddenly cares about other countries. His line about the overabundance of brown-skinned executives in Silicon Valley is telling enough.
- conanbatt 8y ago

duxup 8y ago

If the worker visa system is supposed to bring in critical workers we don't have.... then just set a nice high price / minimum salary. If they're that critical companies should pay a premium. If not, I guess it's not that big a deal.

nortonace 8y ago

i love all this talk of illegal's these days /s.

seem_2211 8y ago

Sales recruiter here: yep, companies will not sponsor visas for salespeople at all. Also, New Zealander working on getting his Greencard: it's a real bummer seeing what some of the bigger tech companies have done with the H1B visa in the past 10 years. They've really abused it and ruined it for everyone.

conanbatt 8y ago
Why not increase the visa quota, or better yet, remove it altogether, since all the H1b Visas are people with job offers, with an employer that wants them. Also, you cant get an H1B for sales. Ask the U.S. Government about that, they put that restriction.

conanbatt 8y ago

> The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech. We will build the most fantastic firewall ever made, and we will make the foreign engineers pay for it!

rtpg 8y ago

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the US with the same level of freedoms granted to citizens (including the “right” to get poached at a higher salary) would only help the industry and those within it Another thing: if software engineers weren’t afraid of unionizing, then companies would have a hell of a lot harder time slowly replacing you with cheaper counterparts. Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem

conanbatt 8y ago
If software engineers unionized, say goodbye to foreign software engineers.
TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times a year, but that's only because I genuinely like them and I enjoy spending time in meatspace with them. But I never felt like my job was impaired by having people at different time zones. If anything, it was awesome! I'd put up a PR before going to sleep and by the time I went in to work the next day it would be ready to merge. If any serious discussion had to happen, we'd just use video chat to resolve big issues. What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.
- jahaja 8y ago
  > What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing various problems on the job. * Having influence backed up by actual power. * Solidarity.

ForHackernews 8y ago

> You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering That's because unlike software engineering, all of those other jobs rely heavily on [natural] language and cultural fluency.