6 ms·

How To Get Your Own Fanboys

25 points by mqt 18y ago

edw519 18y ago
How to get your own fanboys? Get 'em while they're young. If you're any good, they won't switch. Apple has targeted schools for 30 years. I'd say it's worked.
- rms 18y ago
  >Apple has targeted schools for 30 years. I'd say it's worked. Good point, I've never seen any remark on that before.
  - edw519 18y ago
    You bring up an interesting point. If you're in the target zone, do you know you're in the target zone?
  - vlad 18y ago
    I've read that adults are very loyal to brands they used when young; in the case of an article I'm thinking of, it was the manufacturer of a first car. So I have to agree.
  - mixmax 18y ago
    McDonalds is doing the same thing - All the Ronald McDonald and kids stuff is not just for the families: It's a long-term strategy.
    - bridgetroll 18y ago
      Do you know any adults who buy happy meals... for themselves?
- maxwell 18y ago
  My grade school had Macs, and they sucked. We used Macs of the same vintage when I was a freshman in high school, because they ran some stupid graphing software my teacher liked. They sucked. When my little sister was in middle school, they started a program to give each kid a laptop (that they couldn't bring home). They were iBooks that ran 10.2 or 10.3. Sucked. Never had an Apple, had nothing but bad/mediocre experiences with them, had no particular affinity for the company, don't own an iPod. But I bought a PowerBook G4 when I started college in ought-five. Why? Tiger. And it has a good keyboard, no blinking lights, and the hw/sw combo is just ridiculously stable. I've been running this same boot for, like, weeks. It weirds me out when I see someone booting up their laptop. Wait, let me open a new file in TextMate... Yeah, Untitled 135. If Windows 7 and any hardware vendor can top that, I'll switch.
  - Raphael 18y ago
    Do you seriously have 135 un-saved text files going? Because if you do, you are my new idol.
    - maxwell 18y ago
      I only have two unsaved files open right now -- Untitled 82 and Untitled 135. It's just that I've had TextMate running continuously since sometime in March.
    - davidw 18y ago
      How's 128 emacs buffers stack up? Granted, not all of them are files, but then again, my computer has only been up a week. And, naturally, they're all saved - you'd be insane to leave that many files unsaved, IMO.
      - apotheon 18y ago
        Cool -- so your EmacsOS can do 128 things at the same time! My FreeBSD OS only has 104 open processes right now, according to ps. On the other hand, one of them is Firefox with more than 100 tabs open, so it's not like I'm slacking.
- wumi 18y ago
  which is why they have a small percentage of the market?
  - bmj 18y ago
    But isn't Apple's relatively small market share because most companies (big or small) tend toward Windows? Cost is obviously an issue for the home user, too--why spend (at least) twice as much on a Mac when you can get a perfectly acceptable Windows machine?
  - apotheon 18y ago
    No -- they have a small percentage of the market because brand loyalty doesn't overcome perceived savings for many people, and because Apple's falling down on the job when it comes to game support.
  - pg 18y ago
    They have a small market share now because their market share shrank to tiny under the bumbling CEOs before Jobs returned. Their market share is growing fast, but tiny x fast growth = small. Wait a few more years.
    - wumi 18y ago
      understood , I just thought it was a very over-generalized comment by stating "they've targeted schools for 30 years and it's worked," when from all appearances, has been decently for the last 10
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    "which is why they have a small percentage of the market?" Depends which market. They have a tiny share in one, dominant share in the other.
    - wumi 18y ago
      true, but as the comment was reffering to schools, all the schools I've been, from grade school through University, only had Apple's computer products, so I believe he inferred the computer market.
- deleted 18y ago
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Hexstream 18y ago
"Filed Under Uncategorized". That makes so much sense! But I think it would be even more dramatic to rename the Uncategorized "category" to "Unfiled". "Filed under Unfiled." Poison for the non-technical mind.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  That is funny. In my defense, I think that's Wordpress's default. My theme generates the "filed under".
  - apotheon 18y ago
    You can edit that, y'know.
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andreyf 18y ago
I think it's easier than that. Just make consistently superior products, with a consistent, recognizable brand design, and charge 2x for them. Good examples are A&F, BMW, and Starbucks. You are right to point out that religion and sports are related - they are also examples of a kind of "brand identity", based in our tribal instincts.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  You know, I think I have to grant you that on BMW. They've got some fanboyishness going on too. Not sure as much about the other two. (Starbucks has a number of haters exceeded only by Wal-Mart).
  - wumi 18y ago
    but haters usually in regards to their fair trade coffee (or lack there of). Starbucks junkies are fanboys as well -- and I find often coincide with Apple fanboys
    - apotheon 18y ago
      Good point -- and one I was going to make, until I saw you beat me to it: there are usually a godawful lot of Macs at Starbucks, in my experience. I tend to notice this on my way to a local 24/7 coffee shop with better quality beverages, competitive prices, free wireless, and less business, carrying my Thinkpad.
      - wumi 18y ago
        seemingly, Starbucks only competes on "better coffee," which is , of course, subjective. This is why I believe Starbucks is like Apple in that regard, as it seems to be more about the culture and inferred status of the product, than the actual value of the product itself.
  - mixmax 18y ago
    Lots of haters == Lots of fanboys
greendestiny 18y ago
If you want fanboys make sure your product confers social status. Concentrate on aesthetics and make sure you're almost always more expensive than the competition. Good aesthetics make your product desirable, an expensive price point means your product will keep its social status.
- deleted 18y ago
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- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Still, I feel like there are a lot of companies that do this and still don't get fanboys. Maybe they just don't do it well enough.
  - greendestiny 18y ago
    Yeah I don't think its necessarily easy. Other people have to know that the product you're buying is 'impressive' for it confer some status. Its also about building a brand identity that people want to associate themselves with. So Apple spends a lot of money making sure people know they are the cool Californian company.
  - menloparkbum 18y ago
    Apple does marketing right, like all the good premium brands. But that doesn't lead to fanboyism. In what other arena do you see people taking sides and insulting each other about stuff that pretty much does the same thing, no matter which they choose? American politics. The fanboy thing happens cuz personal computing is a dual party system. You're either a Mac or a PC. Or you're one of those weird 3rd party candidates who use Linux.
indiejade 18y ago
Good read. My take would be that Apple is like Nike. In grad school, one of my professors said that Nike isn't actually in the business of making shoes; it's in the business of marketing. Makes sense. Advertising and celebrity athlete endorsements don't really add any value to a pair of sneakers, but paying a celebrity athlete millions of dollars for their endorsement certainly adds to the cost, and ultimately the price, of the final product. Quote: ". . . if they’re lucky maybe one day they’ll graduate into paying double for their computers." Interesting commentary about "the club." Indeed does it seem that Apple packages and target-markets in such a way that those who are lulled into paying the premium for the "final product" ultimately end up doing so in order to be part of it (as in "the club"). Then, of course, are there those who are just too poor to pay membership dues to the iCool club. Also are there those of us who maybe can, but don't necessarily want to pay double for the branded plastic, given the fact that hardware is cheap and operating systems can be free. Even legally free. I think a bunch of us use Linux, or some open-source variation thereof.
alex_c 18y ago
A long rant about why Apple has a fanatical following, and the word "design" is only mentioned once? Good design is strangely lacking in the tech industry. Sony has it (sometimes). In the mp3 player area, IRiver had it (briefly), but it wasn't enough. When looking for a laptop recently, I was dismayed at how plain bad most Windows laptops look (for the record, I ended up choosing between a Dell and a Sony, and went with the Sony because I didn't want to wait 2 weeks). Microsoft is a consistent case study of how NOT to do design. Whatever else Apple might do wrong, design isn't one of them. Let me put it another way. If the auto world only gave you two choices - '88 Ford Taurus knock-offs and Lexus - I'm willing to bet Lexus owners would be a lot more fanatical.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Perhaps. I just think that design is the reason most people would attribute it to, and it's certainly a part, but it's only a part. There's clearly more to it than that, because lots of industries have only one company with good aesthetic sense, yet almost none have fanboys. Agreed on iRiver. Their players were so much better than Apple's for one or two generations, and then they degraded rapidly. I can't imagine what went wrong there.
  - vlad 18y ago
    http://gear.ign.com/articles/306/306414p1.html http://gear.ign.com/articles/306/306414p1.html
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      Wow, does that take me back. I had the original Diamond Rio back in the day (though the second, 64mb generation) which I bought from Best Buy for $300. I remember how freaking happy I was with it too. What was that, 1998? 99? I soooooooo wish I hadn't sold that on eBay.
    - dangoldin 18y ago
      Definitely takes me back too: "Aside from the massive 128MB of storage, this is where the PC kicks the most ass."
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vlad 18y ago
I believe I have the computer you recommended, a work T61, and a Macbook Pro. The keyboard on the MacBook Pro is much better, surprisingly. The idea to use a backlit keyboard is incredibly thoughtful. The screen is much, much better than the one on a T61. The operating system is much better and simpler, with not a single picture or theme of a blue sky that I know of. The T61 wins in... looking Windowish. In this case, both Windows XP and Vista computers look as unrefined and ancient right now as old Apple computers with 5.25" drives do. When I think of Windows I think of those documentaries about the Silicon Valley from the late 90's.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  If you're talking about me, I recommend the X series, not so much the T. You're right about the backlit keyboard, it is one great feature of the MBP.
aston 18y ago
If Apple's marketing relies so heavily on it being a niche, exclusive club rather than the market leader/product of the common man, how do you explain the iPod?
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  I think they just applied the same marketing there and nobody ever challenged them on it after they achieved ubiquity. That's why I think they're vulnerable to their own tactics there.
  - aston 18y ago
    Maybe so. The Zune marketing is an interesting case study, since it's in a lot of ways very un-Microsoft. They've tried their best to hit the hipsters with the campaign: launch parties at Stussy stores, commercials featuring trippy video sequences and a song from the Shins, customized engravings from various artists, and a general "too-cool-for-school" vibe. And it's not worked very much at all. Maybe because it's too late?
    - apotheon 18y ago
      Maybe the fact that the "trippy video sequences" are pointless and lame, and the fact that the "song from the Shins" is awful, has something to do with it.
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      I think they just tried aping Apple's marketing (aesthetically) while totally not understanding why it worked. They don't have Microsoft Stores, so they borrowed Stussy. Jet was taken, so they went with the Shins. They're not building their own cool club, they're just trying to get into Apple's.
axod 18y ago
This is just wrong and boring. For me, in a nutshell, Apple have extremely good taste. They make very well thought out products. I first used an Apple 1 1/2 years ago. Before then I'd just assumed they were a load of hype. Out of all the laptops I've had, (Toshiba, IBM, Sony, Dell, MacBook), the Macbook wins absolutely in terms of design, build quality, and functionality. The others aren't even close. It's a boolean for me... Macbook wins, all the others completely fail. Perhaps this is why you dismiss people like myself as fanboys. But there really is that much of a gap between apple and the rest. MacBooks are just simple. Nicely designed functional objects. When you then look at a Dell or IBM etc, they are a mess. With grills here, extra buttons here, some ports on the front, some on the side, weird slopes here, it's like the design was an afterthought. Just a shame I didn't try Apple sooner. It's the same with the iPhone. Name one other phone that has a usable web browser, and brilliantly thought out keyboard. It's not fanboyism, it's just common sense.
- jrockway 18y ago
  They make very well thought out products. With bugs. One thing Apple does consistently is release buggy Rev. A products. Every. Single. Time. It's almost like they try to do it. Out of all the laptops I've had, (Toshiba, IBM, Sony, Dell, MacBook), the Macbook wins absolutely in terms of design, build quality, and functionality. In terms of hardware, they're all the same designs from Intel. Apple uses prettier build materials (metal); but Thinkpads are a lot more solid. (Drainage holes under the keyboard, huge hinge connecting the screen to the base, easy to open up to add things, every screw has a part number for easy ordering, etc.) In the end, I think people like Apple because Apple likes themselves so much. It's very easy to get excited about something when you see other people doing it. When Apple launches a product, it's a work of art. When Lenovo releases a new Thinkpad... it's really fucking boring. "Yay, it looks exactly like last year's model!" That doesn't mean it's not a good computer, though... it just means Apple markets to the ignorant better. There is quite a large market of people that don't know anything :) Finally, yeah the iPhone and OS X are kind of nice. Unfortunately Apple likes to add cool features to their OS and then cripple them for The Media Companies; the same goes for the iPhone. When I buy something, I want it to work for me, not whoever is paying Apple this week. So I use Linux on a Thinkpad, and think about what I do with my computer instead of what it looks like.
axod 18y ago
"Their products, to some significant percentage of their user base, aren’t just computers or phones, they’re a lifestyle. Insult the operating system and you insult the owner." This is pretty offensive. IF (and that is a very big if), any other manufacturer came out with a phone that had a usable web browser, a laptop that didn't suck, or a decent mp3 player, then I'd buy them. No question. People really don't just blindly buy Apple stuff because it's Apple. I couldn't care less if it's Apple or not. People buy MacBooks, iPods and iPhones, because they are unquestionably the market leaders. They are the absolute best by miles in those 3 areas. If you think there is a better phone/pocket computer than the iPhone you really have to be kidding. Same with the iPod and MacBook.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Just out of curiosity, do you not think every fanboy would say this?
  - axod 18y ago
    I'm not really clear on how you think this whole 'fanboy' thing works. Do you think I have been brainwashed by Apple? You think I only bought an Apple to be in the 'in' crowd? No. I bought a MacBook, thought it was fantastic compared to all that I had had before, and kept using it. I played with an iPhone in a shop, and for the first time, thought to myself "wow. I would actually use the browser and email on this phone", so I bought one. I'm not arguing this to persuade you that Apple products are actually good, I'm arguing because by labeling people 'fanboys' you're effectively saying they have no clue. It's offensive. You obviously don't like Apple. You've made it clear you hate things like font smoothing ;) That's your choice, but labeling people 'fanboys' is just lazy. Arguing any more is pointless. It's like you calling me a fascist.
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      Like I said, I think most of their products are good, maybe a couple are even great. I don't dislike them, I just wouldn't recommend their PCs to my aunt. That was more or less the point of my original post, which you found to be trolling, because you disagree with it. I do dislike fanboys though. I don't know if you are one or not, but I'd guess you are by how offended you get over any implication that you might be. It's the same concept as homophobia. Me simply mentioning the existence of fanboys on my blog constitutes trolling to you. Every fanboy at some point bought an Apple out of curiosity. Every one of them will say "I didn't want to be part of a club, I just wanted to see if their products were better." That's how marketing works. Nobody says "I bought Budweiser because I like talking frogs." But a lot of people buy Budweiser because they like talking frogs. So if you agree with me that there are fanboys (and maybe you don't) just trust me when I say, they all think the same way as you. That doesn't mean you are one, of course.It just means that if you were, you wouldn't know it.
ssharp 18y ago
What areas have intense fanboys and hateboys? Video games & computers. You don't need to look any further then at the demos.
pistoriusp 18y ago
A year ago my laptop was due for an upgrade, so I got myself a 2nd hand MacBook Pro. I had never used a Mac, and had been using FreeBSD as a development OS and sometimes a Windows machine when I wanted to play games. I can honestly say that I was not a Apple fanboy. Sure, I liked the way their things looked, but a fanboy? No. A year after owning a Mac... I would never want to go back to a PC. It's simply the best OS that I've ever used. So, how did Apple get me to love their product? Their products look nice. That makes me want to use them and bring them into my "space." It's the same reason I consider buying anything: shoes, clothes, cars, chairs, anything. Once I started using their OS it was a pleasant and consistent experience.
rp 18y ago
Apple fans have always been fervent even during the very long period where the computers very obviously underpowered and overpriced. Apple was putting out 040-based computers at high prices when the PC industry was knee-deep in comparatively cheap Pentium systems. It was only until the Power PC came along that Apple started to release systems where the hardware was hefty enough to match the quality of the interface. I also challenge anybody to argue that the OS, as opposed to interface, was anything but creaky for many years. OS 10 (not OS X) was garbage.
lg 18y ago
the obsessive "apple fanboys" i know don't know much about technology. so i'd say it's half good products, and half marketing. apple's the only company that creates a personification of their product as a marketing tool. it's a great trick because anyone who identifies with the persona burns apple into their souls, but it's uncommon because you can turn a lot of people off that way. most companies don't do this at all, or pick something inoffensive or only remotely human (geico uses a lizard). obviously nobody identifies with generic friendly people or lizards. but some people do identify with justin long, god help them, so apple gets a small but devoted clan who loves it because it "just gets who they are." that said, apple's probably betting that rates of justin-long-ness are trending upwards. on a side note, bud select is great.
ssharp 18y ago
I don't care that much about how the computer looks, just don't make it ridiculously bulky and keep the lines clean. Although even with such basic concepts, most competitors attempts at duplicating Apple style end up looking ridiculous. There is elegance in simplicity that most people don't understand, yet in many industries the design leader is the one that keeps things simple and clean. However, I use Macs because of the O/S. I would definitely buy non-Apple hardware if it would run OSX without hacks but you can't. Microsoft pretty much summed up where they are in innovation and design with the Zune. They are a giant but unless they can turn things around and actually start making devices that people WANT instead of making cheap products with a recognizable name, then they're going to end up more like Ford than Toyota. They also have a real jackass of a CEO.
axod 18y ago
Another pointless troll post. Takes trolling to a completely new level.

25 points by mqt 18y ago

How to get your own fanboys? Get 'em while they're young. If you're any good, they won't switch. Apple has targeted schools for 30 years. I'd say it's worked.

rms 18y ago
>Apple has targeted schools for 30 years. I'd say it's worked. Good point, I've never seen any remark on that before.
- edw519 18y ago
  You bring up an interesting point. If you're in the target zone, do you know you're in the target zone?
- vlad 18y ago
  I've read that adults are very loyal to brands they used when young; in the case of an article I'm thinking of, it was the manufacturer of a first car. So I have to agree.
- mixmax 18y ago
  McDonalds is doing the same thing - All the Ronald McDonald and kids stuff is not just for the families: It's a long-term strategy.
  - bridgetroll 18y ago
    Do you know any adults who buy happy meals... for themselves?
maxwell 18y ago
My grade school had Macs, and they sucked. We used Macs of the same vintage when I was a freshman in high school, because they ran some stupid graphing software my teacher liked. They sucked. When my little sister was in middle school, they started a program to give each kid a laptop (that they couldn't bring home). They were iBooks that ran 10.2 or 10.3. Sucked. Never had an Apple, had nothing but bad/mediocre experiences with them, had no particular affinity for the company, don't own an iPod. But I bought a PowerBook G4 when I started college in ought-five. Why? Tiger. And it has a good keyboard, no blinking lights, and the hw/sw combo is just ridiculously stable. I've been running this same boot for, like, weeks. It weirds me out when I see someone booting up their laptop. Wait, let me open a new file in TextMate... Yeah, Untitled 135. If Windows 7 and any hardware vendor can top that, I'll switch.
- Raphael 18y ago
  Do you seriously have 135 un-saved text files going? Because if you do, you are my new idol.
  - maxwell 18y ago
    I only have two unsaved files open right now -- Untitled 82 and Untitled 135. It's just that I've had TextMate running continuously since sometime in March.
  - davidw 18y ago
    How's 128 emacs buffers stack up? Granted, not all of them are files, but then again, my computer has only been up a week. And, naturally, they're all saved - you'd be insane to leave that many files unsaved, IMO.
    - apotheon 18y ago
      Cool -- so your EmacsOS can do 128 things at the same time! My FreeBSD OS only has 104 open processes right now, according to ps. On the other hand, one of them is Firefox with more than 100 tabs open, so it's not like I'm slacking.
wumi 18y ago
which is why they have a small percentage of the market?
- bmj 18y ago
  But isn't Apple's relatively small market share because most companies (big or small) tend toward Windows? Cost is obviously an issue for the home user, too--why spend (at least) twice as much on a Mac when you can get a perfectly acceptable Windows machine?
- apotheon 18y ago
  No -- they have a small percentage of the market because brand loyalty doesn't overcome perceived savings for many people, and because Apple's falling down on the job when it comes to game support.
- pg 18y ago
  They have a small market share now because their market share shrank to tiny under the bumbling CEOs before Jobs returned. Their market share is growing fast, but tiny x fast growth = small. Wait a few more years.
  - wumi 18y ago
    understood , I just thought it was a very over-generalized comment by stating "they've targeted schools for 30 years and it's worked," when from all appearances, has been decently for the last 10
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "which is why they have a small percentage of the market?" Depends which market. They have a tiny share in one, dominant share in the other.
  - wumi 18y ago
    true, but as the comment was reffering to schools, all the schools I've been, from grade school through University, only had Apple's computer products, so I believe he inferred the computer market.
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Hexstream 18y ago

"Filed Under Uncategorized". That makes so much sense! But I think it would be even more dramatic to rename the Uncategorized "category" to "Unfiled". "Filed under Unfiled." Poison for the non-technical mind.

mattmaroon 18y ago
That is funny. In my defense, I think that's Wordpress's default. My theme generates the "filed under".
- apotheon 18y ago
  You can edit that, y'know.

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andreyf 18y ago

I think it's easier than that. Just make consistently superior products, with a consistent, recognizable brand design, and charge 2x for them. Good examples are A&F, BMW, and Starbucks. You are right to point out that religion and sports are related - they are also examples of a kind of "brand identity", based in our tribal instincts.

mattmaroon 18y ago
You know, I think I have to grant you that on BMW. They've got some fanboyishness going on too. Not sure as much about the other two. (Starbucks has a number of haters exceeded only by Wal-Mart).
- wumi 18y ago
  but haters usually in regards to their fair trade coffee (or lack there of). Starbucks junkies are fanboys as well -- and I find often coincide with Apple fanboys
  - apotheon 18y ago
    Good point -- and one I was going to make, until I saw you beat me to it: there are usually a godawful lot of Macs at Starbucks, in my experience. I tend to notice this on my way to a local 24/7 coffee shop with better quality beverages, competitive prices, free wireless, and less business, carrying my Thinkpad.
    - wumi 18y ago
      seemingly, Starbucks only competes on "better coffee," which is , of course, subjective. This is why I believe Starbucks is like Apple in that regard, as it seems to be more about the culture and inferred status of the product, than the actual value of the product itself.
- mixmax 18y ago
  Lots of haters == Lots of fanboys

greendestiny 18y ago

If you want fanboys make sure your product confers social status. Concentrate on aesthetics and make sure you're almost always more expensive than the competition. Good aesthetics make your product desirable, an expensive price point means your product will keep its social status.

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mattmaroon 18y ago
Still, I feel like there are a lot of companies that do this and still don't get fanboys. Maybe they just don't do it well enough.
- greendestiny 18y ago
  Yeah I don't think its necessarily easy. Other people have to know that the product you're buying is 'impressive' for it confer some status. Its also about building a brand identity that people want to associate themselves with. So Apple spends a lot of money making sure people know they are the cool Californian company.
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  Apple does marketing right, like all the good premium brands. But that doesn't lead to fanboyism. In what other arena do you see people taking sides and insulting each other about stuff that pretty much does the same thing, no matter which they choose? American politics. The fanboy thing happens cuz personal computing is a dual party system. You're either a Mac or a PC. Or you're one of those weird 3rd party candidates who use Linux.

indiejade 18y ago

Good read. My take would be that Apple is like Nike. In grad school, one of my professors said that Nike isn't actually in the business of making shoes; it's in the business of marketing. Makes sense. Advertising and celebrity athlete endorsements don't really add any value to a pair of sneakers, but paying a celebrity athlete millions of dollars for their endorsement certainly adds to the cost, and ultimately the price, of the final product. Quote: ". . . if they’re lucky maybe one day they’ll graduate into paying double for their computers." Interesting commentary about "the club." Indeed does it seem that Apple packages and target-markets in such a way that those who are lulled into paying the premium for the "final product" ultimately end up doing so in order to be part of it (as in "the club"). Then, of course, are there those who are just too poor to pay membership dues to the iCool club. Also are there those of us who maybe can, but don't necessarily want to pay double for the branded plastic, given the fact that hardware is cheap and operating systems can be free. Even legally free. I think a bunch of us use Linux, or some open-source variation thereof.

alex_c 18y ago

A long rant about why Apple has a fanatical following, and the word "design" is only mentioned once? Good design is strangely lacking in the tech industry. Sony has it (sometimes). In the mp3 player area, IRiver had it (briefly), but it wasn't enough. When looking for a laptop recently, I was dismayed at how plain bad most Windows laptops look (for the record, I ended up choosing between a Dell and a Sony, and went with the Sony because I didn't want to wait 2 weeks). Microsoft is a consistent case study of how NOT to do design. Whatever else Apple might do wrong, design isn't one of them. Let me put it another way. If the auto world only gave you two choices - '88 Ford Taurus knock-offs and Lexus - I'm willing to bet Lexus owners would be a lot more fanatical.

mattmaroon 18y ago
Perhaps. I just think that design is the reason most people would attribute it to, and it's certainly a part, but it's only a part. There's clearly more to it than that, because lots of industries have only one company with good aesthetic sense, yet almost none have fanboys. Agreed on iRiver. Their players were so much better than Apple's for one or two generations, and then they degraded rapidly. I can't imagine what went wrong there.
- vlad 18y ago
  http://gear.ign.com/articles/306/306414p1.html http://gear.ign.com/articles/306/306414p1.html
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    Wow, does that take me back. I had the original Diamond Rio back in the day (though the second, 64mb generation) which I bought from Best Buy for $300. I remember how freaking happy I was with it too. What was that, 1998? 99? I soooooooo wish I hadn't sold that on eBay.
  - dangoldin 18y ago
    Definitely takes me back too: "Aside from the massive 128MB of storage, this is where the PC kicks the most ass."

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vlad 18y ago

I believe I have the computer you recommended, a work T61, and a Macbook Pro. The keyboard on the MacBook Pro is much better, surprisingly. The idea to use a backlit keyboard is incredibly thoughtful. The screen is much, much better than the one on a T61. The operating system is much better and simpler, with not a single picture or theme of a blue sky that I know of. The T61 wins in... looking Windowish. In this case, both Windows XP and Vista computers look as unrefined and ancient right now as old Apple computers with 5.25" drives do. When I think of Windows I think of those documentaries about the Silicon Valley from the late 90's.

mattmaroon 18y ago
If you're talking about me, I recommend the X series, not so much the T. You're right about the backlit keyboard, it is one great feature of the MBP.

aston 18y ago

If Apple's marketing relies so heavily on it being a niche, exclusive club rather than the market leader/product of the common man, how do you explain the iPod?

mattmaroon 18y ago
I think they just applied the same marketing there and nobody ever challenged them on it after they achieved ubiquity. That's why I think they're vulnerable to their own tactics there.
- aston 18y ago
  Maybe so. The Zune marketing is an interesting case study, since it's in a lot of ways very un-Microsoft. They've tried their best to hit the hipsters with the campaign: launch parties at Stussy stores, commercials featuring trippy video sequences and a song from the Shins, customized engravings from various artists, and a general "too-cool-for-school" vibe. And it's not worked very much at all. Maybe because it's too late?
  - apotheon 18y ago
    Maybe the fact that the "trippy video sequences" are pointless and lame, and the fact that the "song from the Shins" is awful, has something to do with it.
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    I think they just tried aping Apple's marketing (aesthetically) while totally not understanding why it worked. They don't have Microsoft Stores, so they borrowed Stussy. Jet was taken, so they went with the Shins. They're not building their own cool club, they're just trying to get into Apple's.

axod 18y ago

This is just wrong and boring. For me, in a nutshell, Apple have extremely good taste. They make very well thought out products. I first used an Apple 1 1/2 years ago. Before then I'd just assumed they were a load of hype. Out of all the laptops I've had, (Toshiba, IBM, Sony, Dell, MacBook), the Macbook wins absolutely in terms of design, build quality, and functionality. The others aren't even close. It's a boolean for me... Macbook wins, all the others completely fail. Perhaps this is why you dismiss people like myself as fanboys. But there really is that much of a gap between apple and the rest. MacBooks are just simple. Nicely designed functional objects. When you then look at a Dell or IBM etc, they are a mess. With grills here, extra buttons here, some ports on the front, some on the side, weird slopes here, it's like the design was an afterthought. Just a shame I didn't try Apple sooner. It's the same with the iPhone. Name one other phone that has a usable web browser, and brilliantly thought out keyboard. It's not fanboyism, it's just common sense.

jrockway 18y ago
They make very well thought out products. With bugs. One thing Apple does consistently is release buggy Rev. A products. Every. Single. Time. It's almost like they try to do it. Out of all the laptops I've had, (Toshiba, IBM, Sony, Dell, MacBook), the Macbook wins absolutely in terms of design, build quality, and functionality. In terms of hardware, they're all the same designs from Intel. Apple uses prettier build materials (metal); but Thinkpads are a lot more solid. (Drainage holes under the keyboard, huge hinge connecting the screen to the base, easy to open up to add things, every screw has a part number for easy ordering, etc.) In the end, I think people like Apple because Apple likes themselves so much. It's very easy to get excited about something when you see other people doing it. When Apple launches a product, it's a work of art. When Lenovo releases a new Thinkpad... it's really fucking boring. "Yay, it looks exactly like last year's model!" That doesn't mean it's not a good computer, though... it just means Apple markets to the ignorant better. There is quite a large market of people that don't know anything :) Finally, yeah the iPhone and OS X are kind of nice. Unfortunately Apple likes to add cool features to their OS and then cripple them for The Media Companies; the same goes for the iPhone. When I buy something, I want it to work for me, not whoever is paying Apple this week. So I use Linux on a Thinkpad, and think about what I do with my computer instead of what it looks like.

axod 18y ago

"Their products, to some significant percentage of their user base, aren’t just computers or phones, they’re a lifestyle. Insult the operating system and you insult the owner." This is pretty offensive. IF (and that is a very big if), any other manufacturer came out with a phone that had a usable web browser, a laptop that didn't suck, or a decent mp3 player, then I'd buy them. No question. People really don't just blindly buy Apple stuff because it's Apple. I couldn't care less if it's Apple or not. People buy MacBooks, iPods and iPhones, because they are unquestionably the market leaders. They are the absolute best by miles in those 3 areas. If you think there is a better phone/pocket computer than the iPhone you really have to be kidding. Same with the iPod and MacBook.

mattmaroon 18y ago
Just out of curiosity, do you not think every fanboy would say this?
- axod 18y ago
  I'm not really clear on how you think this whole 'fanboy' thing works. Do you think I have been brainwashed by Apple? You think I only bought an Apple to be in the 'in' crowd? No. I bought a MacBook, thought it was fantastic compared to all that I had had before, and kept using it. I played with an iPhone in a shop, and for the first time, thought to myself "wow. I would actually use the browser and email on this phone", so I bought one. I'm not arguing this to persuade you that Apple products are actually good, I'm arguing because by labeling people 'fanboys' you're effectively saying they have no clue. It's offensive. You obviously don't like Apple. You've made it clear you hate things like font smoothing ;) That's your choice, but labeling people 'fanboys' is just lazy. Arguing any more is pointless. It's like you calling me a fascist.
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    Like I said, I think most of their products are good, maybe a couple are even great. I don't dislike them, I just wouldn't recommend their PCs to my aunt. That was more or less the point of my original post, which you found to be trolling, because you disagree with it. I do dislike fanboys though. I don't know if you are one or not, but I'd guess you are by how offended you get over any implication that you might be. It's the same concept as homophobia. Me simply mentioning the existence of fanboys on my blog constitutes trolling to you. Every fanboy at some point bought an Apple out of curiosity. Every one of them will say "I didn't want to be part of a club, I just wanted to see if their products were better." That's how marketing works. Nobody says "I bought Budweiser because I like talking frogs." But a lot of people buy Budweiser because they like talking frogs. So if you agree with me that there are fanboys (and maybe you don't) just trust me when I say, they all think the same way as you. That doesn't mean you are one, of course.It just means that if you were, you wouldn't know it.

ssharp 18y ago

What areas have intense fanboys and hateboys? Video games & computers. You don't need to look any further then at the demos.

pistoriusp 18y ago

A year ago my laptop was due for an upgrade, so I got myself a 2nd hand MacBook Pro. I had never used a Mac, and had been using FreeBSD as a development OS and sometimes a Windows machine when I wanted to play games. I can honestly say that I was not a Apple fanboy. Sure, I liked the way their things looked, but a fanboy? No. A year after owning a Mac... I would never want to go back to a PC. It's simply the best OS that I've ever used. So, how did Apple get me to love their product? Their products look nice. That makes me want to use them and bring them into my "space." It's the same reason I consider buying anything: shoes, clothes, cars, chairs, anything. Once I started using their OS it was a pleasant and consistent experience.

rp 18y ago

Apple fans have always been fervent even during the very long period where the computers very obviously underpowered and overpriced. Apple was putting out 040-based computers at high prices when the PC industry was knee-deep in comparatively cheap Pentium systems. It was only until the Power PC came along that Apple started to release systems where the hardware was hefty enough to match the quality of the interface. I also challenge anybody to argue that the OS, as opposed to interface, was anything but creaky for many years. OS 10 (not OS X) was garbage.

lg 18y ago

the obsessive "apple fanboys" i know don't know much about technology. so i'd say it's half good products, and half marketing. apple's the only company that creates a personification of their product as a marketing tool. it's a great trick because anyone who identifies with the persona burns apple into their souls, but it's uncommon because you can turn a lot of people off that way. most companies don't do this at all, or pick something inoffensive or only remotely human (geico uses a lizard). obviously nobody identifies with generic friendly people or lizards. but some people do identify with justin long, god help them, so apple gets a small but devoted clan who loves it because it "just gets who they are." that said, apple's probably betting that rates of justin-long-ness are trending upwards. on a side note, bud select is great.

ssharp 18y ago

I don't care that much about how the computer looks, just don't make it ridiculously bulky and keep the lines clean. Although even with such basic concepts, most competitors attempts at duplicating Apple style end up looking ridiculous. There is elegance in simplicity that most people don't understand, yet in many industries the design leader is the one that keeps things simple and clean. However, I use Macs because of the O/S. I would definitely buy non-Apple hardware if it would run OSX without hacks but you can't. Microsoft pretty much summed up where they are in innovation and design with the Zune. They are a giant but unless they can turn things around and actually start making devices that people WANT instead of making cheap products with a recognizable name, then they're going to end up more like Ford than Toyota. They also have a real jackass of a CEO.

axod 18y ago

Another pointless troll post. Takes trolling to a completely new level.